In the "No One Escapes Cidhna mine" quest, which do you think is the more morally justifiable choice: killing Madanach or escaping with him?

Killing him. His justification for all the deaths and killings is "We were here first!" His men are terrorists. It's one thing fighting for your beliefs, it's another attacking caravans and dragging the dead to rest on your grindstone.

Kill.

The forsworn even when they ruled the land would kidnap travelers and sacrifice them to daedra. They've never been nice. They've never been interested in living in peace.

I find either option equally repugnant, which is why I have avoided that quest on recent playthroughs. I've read that there is a way to collaborate with Madanach in the initial escape but then kill him before it's all over, which results in you getting all your stuff back from the Silver-Blood creep after which you can kill him as well. I would be willing to play the Thane card to do that and get away with it. Neither one of them deserves my help IMO.

I kill him.

He got caught.

He's weak.

His "resistance" is less than organized.

He deserves nothing more than a quick, paupers death.

The Forsworn have a very, very good point; it is their land, and not only was it forcibly taken from them by the Nords, they were slaughtered, tortured, and forbidden from worshipping their own gods (a deliberate parallel to the Stormcloak complaint, in my mind. Also something that makes me side-eye them a bit; oh yes, religious freedom for you, of course, but not for the Reachmen?) While 'The Bear of Markarth' is obviously Imperial propaganda, it also obviously contains at least a grain of truth; just listening to the Forsworn's stories hints that when Ulfric retook Markarth for the Jarl, things were not remotely pleasant for any of the Reachmen. Madanach and his men have a right to be angry; and if you believe the Stormcloaks have a right to rebel, then certainly the Forsworn do as well.

However. However...

They have, absolutely, become terrorists, as said above. They've become so consumed by their anger that everyone who isn't one of them is a target, and they make no distinction between 'civilian' and 'soldier' let alone 'from Markarth' or 'Nord' or anything like that. Madanach's goal, as he plainly tells you, is the eradication of any-non-Forsworn in the entire Reach. In addition, in their desperation, they've teamed up with the Hagravens (really, reeeally unpleasant creatures in every way) and are even engaging in some weird form of necromancy (the Briarhearts are essentially undead). For the past few years, Madanach has been ordering his own people into suicide missions to take out the Silverblood's enemies, solely to keep his own skin. And even if you help him escape, the Forsworn will still try to kill you at every turn (with the exception of one single outpost).

In my opinion, while I fully sympathize with their position, the Forsworn have essentially sold their souls for vengeance. Even if they got handed the leadership of Markarth and were allowed to worship the way they wanted, I don't think it would be enough for them now. They want revenge on the Nords, and I think they want it more than anything else. I'm not even sure they'd stop if they owned the entire Reach and no one else was allowed to live there. Morally? Put Madanach down, and then take out that Silverblood [censored] too. It's all you can really do for the situation.

I have no qualms eradicating any population that stands in my way and refuses to "play nice" with my ulterior motives and upper ambitions. Madanach dies with but a whimper.

It also doesn't help that the Forsworn are just awesome enemies to fight against. Magic resistant, dual-wielding, crazed barbarians dabbling in all sorts of taboo stuff as they rush you en masse to meet your steel? Oh yes.

Besides, the Forsworn are really nothing more than Bretons who live a bit farther West.

If Madanach were smart, he'd have his Forsworn break him out of the clink and the whole lot would go to High Rock to maybe... plot a decent "re-taking the homeland" type of strategy. Maybe raise an actual army of kinsmen to help them out?

But no. He's weak and can do nothing more than weak terrorist attacks.

Madanach needs to die just from being a strategic failure. lol

I kill Madanach, and then kill Thonar.

I've played out both options. Neither seem benificial over the other as far as in game effects are concerned. Forsworn still attack you on sight even if you save their king.

I kill him now. much more fun and Markarth is more open to you.

Bragging about his intention to paint the walls with Nord blood sealed Madanach's fate. He didn't sound too concerned about what sort of Nord he turned to paint.

What makes you think the Bretons are any fonder of them than anyone else?

Madanach has an irrefutable point; the Reach belongs to the Forsworn. He has every right to try and take back his home.

That said.

The way he goes about this (terrorize innocents and kill everyone they see) is full-blown idiocy. I let him live, if only because I pity him.

Yeah Breton != Forsworn.

The Forsworn were originally a tribal mishmash of pretty much every race, that lived in the reach(Originally part of High Rock and part of Hammerfell). They practiced forbidden magic, worshipped daedra, killed/sacrificed travellers/each other for daedra, and were generally hostile to pretty much everyone. The bretons of High Rock hate them, the Redguards of Hammerfell hate them, and the latest owners of the land, the nords of Skyrim, hate them.

Kill him, kill him, at least the stormcloaks are civil and Ulfric has a few very positive traits, Madanach and his forsworn have none...

Oh question does the armour of the old gods make you friendly towards the forsworn?

He died.

Skyrim doesn't utilize faction armor recognition(Except for the thalmor embassy quest, and you have to have a certain one and have to be altmer to boot)

That svcks, I read somewhere if you wear the armour they wont attack you, Oh well...

I let him live. Half because I didn't think about killing him the first time around and secondly because the Reach DOES belong to the Reachmen. While the Nords have the right of keeping Markarth via conquest, the Forsworn ALSO have the right to fight back and try to push them out. Yes, they do commit atrocities but since when has war ever not had atrocities?

Even worse: Ulfric committed just as bad crimes to the Forsworn people. He butchered nearly everyone while the Forsworn, when controlling Markarth during the Markarth Incident, only killed the exceptionally bad noblemen and those that opposed them.


1. Yeah, like the Nords DIDN'T do exactly what the Forsworn are doing right now. Retribution. Eye for an eye.

2. The Briarhearts volunteer to do so.

Do you ever talk to people in game? Igmund, the imperial jarl of the hold says that book is crap. The Forsworn Braig says it's crap. And the Silver-Blood Thonar says it's crap.

Igmund, who was pissed off by the forsworn killing his father had the forsworn either executed or sent to the mines. When the thalmor made the big stink about Igmund offering free worship, Igmund cooperated with the empire and turned Ulfric into a scapegoat for them. An imperial scholar writes bear of markarth as apologia for the Thalmor.

Their conflict is not mine. I have no interest, nor stake, in their dispute. And so to kill him or let him live holds no moral compass for my characters.
Madanach is little more than a fiddle, and so I play him as such.
It's a lovely tune when handled with care.

- I agree to help him, but I do not kill the prisoner. I simply speak to start the confrontation, then back up and let the others shiv the git.
- I follow through the tunnels, always careful to let his minions forge a clear path ahead.
- I accept his gift of armour, but neither help nor hinder the escape plan.
- I wait for all forsworn to exit, then and only then pass through the door.
- Upon exiting and hearing the conversation begin between Madanach and Silver Blood, I immediately turn around and re-enter the escape tunnel.
- I then turn 180 and, again, emerge into the now-calm-and-clear Markarth.
- No one has died. Not one guard, Forsworn, citizen or other.
- Not one ash pile in Markarth.
- No bounty and no hostilities.
- Madanach and his cronies have retreated to Druadach Redoubt, a now lovely and friendly cavern.
- I can slaughter their Forsworn brethren with impunity throughout the Hold, yet find sanctuary in their hideout.

By playing Madanach like the fiddle he truly is, I circumvent any quest complications and garner some nice benefits in the process.
Life is good.

If everyone goes in for retribution in Tamriel, all you're going to be left with is a world pretty much devoid of sentient life. And the Briarhearts volunteering is rather beside the point. They're still becoming what is, as described in the Red Eagle book, essentially an undead warrior wholly consumed with vengeance. The Forsworn don't make distinctions beyond 'Forsworn' and 'not Forsworn'. They don't just focus on Nords, or Nord soldiers, or Nords that were actually involved in the Markarth Incident (what a pretty way to put it, 'Incident') or little things like 'advlts'. Answering atrocity with atrocity never leads to good things.

Like I said, I completely sympathize with their viewpoint and think they've got every right to be angry and rebel. I draw the line at 'let's kill everyone and let the Gods sort them out'. If there was a way to give the Reach back to the Reachmen in Skyrim, I'd do it. But the OP was asking what the most moralistic choice was, and in my opinion, it's killing Madanach to prevent a surge in violence (at the very least, if you let him go, he and his friends rampage through the city) and because he makes it clear he's committed to killing everyone he can, and to also kill Thonor, who's been using the Forsworn like his personal assassins for years, throws you into prison because you've found out his dirty little secret, murders your questgiver because he was also looking into the truth (and he was looking into the truth because his parents were killed), and is just generally an all around horrible person.

The bear of Markath is EXTREMLEY biased, Ulfric was a hero for fighting off the Forsworn.
Edit: Note by the start of the civil of war I consider Ulfric a "Fallen Hero"

i had to side with him, simply because causing a mayhem inside a prison would get me nowhere (I had no skill in 1-handed anyway, nor magic). After that I gave him a visit on his outpost to tell him what I think about slaughtering nords. Too bad the citizens of markarth are always bad mouthing me about that incident

From a technical perpective, Madanach is a leveled spellcaster and may be difficult to fight without your equipment, even with a shiv or pickaxe.

From a gameplay perpective, the Armor of the Old Gods that Madanach will give you for helping him is unique while the Silver-Blood family ring has a generic appearance and enchantment. Also, the inevitable bloodshed that results from Madanach's escape can be minimized to Thonar and a number of faceless guards by timing it right.

From a roleplaying perspective, there's no guarantee that you will ever get out of the mine without his help.

Also, morality-wise, some people seem unable to grasp the concept that "bias" refers to slanting of information: "he gave a stunning speech" versus "he spouted his usual nonsense".

While the author of "The Bear of Markarth" is certainly in favor of the Forsworn -- by which I mean that the author believes that the Forsworn are generally demonized and he wishes to paint them in a more neutral light, similar to how a modern author might attempt to defend native practices considered "barbarian" by calling them part of a unique culture -- there is no suggestion that his information is innacurate.

We can glean that the Reach was ruled at first by the Reachmen. The Nords took their land by force and generally have tried to take advantage of them. While the Empire was preoccupied with the Great War, the Reachmen retook "their" land back (also by force). After the war, Ulfric took back the city of Markarth. The Forsworn's leaders and sympathizers were put to death, though whether by Ulfric himself or the current Jarl's orders is unclear.

I also note that those who believe that Ulfric committed the executions are usually supporters of the Imperial Legion, as it demonizes the leader of the Stormcloak rebellion; those who believe the book to be hogwash are usually Stormcloak supporters who distrust the book for the same reason.

In any case, considering how the argument is bound up with the civil war, I would not recommend asking these forums for suggestions on courses of action: for example, two who have posted above me are inveterate supporters of the Stormcloak rebellion and are biased themselves, so whatever they say ought to be taken with a grain of salt.

First time I hepled Madanach because it simpky never occurred to me to kill him. I didn't know I would find directions and a key on his body, how could I? And when I offered my help to Thonar earlier, he basically told me to f*** off, so I thought that was a dead end. Since that character was Breton (not from High Rock) and neutral in the war, it wasn't too hard to imagining her feeling sympathy for the storues she heard in the mine.
When we came out of the tunnel, I just didn't get involved in the fighting, and I never had problems with guards like I've seen reported.

Next character was furious with Thonar, but saw her chance to - as far as she knew at the time - make the roads of the Reach a little less Forsworn-infested, which would mean the Stormcloaks would have one concern less to worry about, so she killed Madanach and fled alone. Marked for Death and pickaxe