It doesn't matter that it's fictional, deciding that every statement not disproven by another statement is fact doesn't work. I'm not going to butcher reasoning just because it technically isn't real. Observation has stated that ebony is a rare substance on Tamriel, and the only reason people believe it's god's blood is because it's only found where the only volcano in the land is/was (as I recall, it used to be a lot bigger, hence it can be found as far out as Raven Rock). I take this as lore, not lore of fact, but lore of mortal belief for something they can't fully understand given their current situation. And they can't understand it until they have other volcanoes to compare to. I feel this works much better and contributes much more to a fictional universe than "they said it, nobody said otherwise, it's true".


He used to be a Daedric cultist. Sure Mehrunes Dagon seemingly wasn't his specialty, but if anyone knows about what works and what doesn't work, it's Martin. Sad that he didn't impart more of his knowledge before the end of the main quest though. And again, I believe that "it wouldn't work because it isn't god's blood" is a more interesting explanation than "it is but was neglected because it didn't make for a good story".

They wouldn't be strong enough. Just like he needed a Great Welkynd Stone and a Great Sigil Stone, where a normal Welkynd Stone and a normal Sigil Stone wouldn't cut it. He needed the blood of a Divine and a Daedric Prince, as the "lower class" daedric soul infused in daedric armor/weapons wouldn't cut it. As for ebony being "godsblood", you could presume it to be Lorkhan's blood, as it's concentrated most where his heart fell... but he's conspicuously missing from the list of Divines (he is, after all, the Missing God, no?).

Perhaps. But I see it not as concentrated most where the Heart fell, but concentrated most around a volcano where the Heart happened to be. It might be just an igneous mineral. Given how the Dremora, who live in a realm of lava oceans, have so much, (plus vast amounts of varying grades of lower-quality but identical-loooking equipment), I suspect the more mundane explanation.

On a similar note, who's to say Amber and Madness ore aren't godsblood, too?

This would further support the "Prince = realm" hypothesis...

The Shivering Isles literally bleeds Amber and Madness Ore. They're the blood of Sheogorath, the Prince who is forever split between Mania and Dementia.

And what of the crystalline armor and swords of the Knights of Order? The blood of Jyggalag of course.

CP: you can either accept the first hand sources (that is books, dialog, game space, etc.), or you can, quite frankly, leave this forum. Why? Because all we have is the accounts of the denizens of Tamriel. You can't reject everything they say and still try to have a discussion about lore because there is literally nothing left (well, except for developer commentary, which you reject as well). We can't have definitive, scientific sources because Tamriel isn't real. You can't run some chromatography on Ebony to see what its composed of, can't interview all the scholars to see what they think, can't examine the armor to see what it feels like. All we can do is rely on what some fictional people in a fictional setting have told us, and try to find cohesiveness in what is often a fragmented world.

You don't have any actual basis for your theory that Ebony is not god's blood - no one in game ever expresses that opinion, no developer ever alludes to it - all you have is your dislike of it. Thats just no fun, especially since we've had this conversation a dozen times before. So please, lets get back on point.


Correct. Its plausible that a few people in Tamriel would have them, especially since its a mod.

I have as much right as you to be on this forum and I have every right to view the lore not as indisputable fact but as accounts of what mortals believe. Such sources shouldn't be taken as fact, they should be taken as what mortals believe, and one should draw facts from a combination of observation and accounts. While I don't openly question most of what is written and said, the fact remains that the idea that it's god's blood was made by mortals who had no other volcanoes to draw reference to on whether or not geologically similar conditions can produce identical materials. Plus, very few of them have had much contact with the Dremora and survived. I can see why they would draw such a conclusion but that does not mean that given the observations I have made, I can agree with it.


You don't have any actual basis for your theory that it's god's blood other than the fact that mortals, with their limited means, believe it. Just about every Dremora has some such weapon and armor, even the highest grade equipment is a bit more rare. The Deadlands also are geographically suitable for the formation of minerals similar to those under Red Mountain, because they're geologically similar. And Red Mountain and the Deadlands are the only place where ebony seems to be in abundance. This suggests that it can form anywhere with the right geological conditions, but in Tamriel, there's only one such place which also happens to be where the Heart of Lorkhan lay.

False. You're begging the question, furthermore you're using unfounded speculation in order to prove your point. Where is it said that the idea that it's godsblood was made by mortals? Correct, nowhere - that our sources are mortals does not mean that the idea came from them. Where is it said that they have no other volcanic areas to draw reference on? Correct, nowhere - in fact lava can be found in various other provinces and in every TES game. Where is it said that few have had much contact with Dremora and survived? Three out of three, nowhere - my observations actually show the opposite to be true. You claimed that mortals have a limited understanding of geology, when for all we know their understanding is completely exhaustive. I can just as legitimately defend the idea of godsblood by saying that the mortals were told it was godsblood by the gods, because my statement is just as unfounded as the statement that the mortals came up with idea on their own.

Cite your sources for these presumptions or move along - I would advise not talking about 'facts' unless what you are stating is actually a fact, so far you have stated none.

Fixed it, with indisputable fact.

When we get down to the facts, the facts say that we have every basis, in fact the only basis presented, for this stance, while you have literally no basis at all except a distrust of mortals (as if mortality somehow inclined them to be mistaken, when the opposite can be strongly argued) stacked upon baseless presumptions concerning the origin of their ideas.

The only suggestion we have that ebony is god's blood is the occasional statement of the belief of it. That's not good enough for me. Especially considering how much is found in the Deadlands.

As for the volcanoes, the closest thing we have to a suggestion of any other is the book http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior, which UESP notes http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar.


I draw it largely from observation, a woefully unappreciated source of knowledge. Ever notice how Dremora weapons and armor not only looks identical to Daedric, but have the same weight? Have you ever noticed how the Divine Barriers keep Daedra from being able to move large amounts of ore from Tamriel to the Deadlands, especially an ore so rare and regulated that one can be arrested for unauthorized trade of it? Have you also ever noticed how just about every Dremora wears either Dremora equipment or true Daedric equipment? Also noticed how Daedric equipment can't count as "blood of the Daedra Princes"? Ever notice how the Deadlands are full of lava, just like the interior of Red Mountain? Ever notice how the idea that ebony is god's blood is literally never actually supported as anything other than superstition?


When the only textual sources are a few casual comments with no actual basis other than superstition, the only fact proven is that is what the mortals believe. They have no basis for it other than that it's mostly found in and around Red Mountain.


It's less baseless than the assertion that it is god's blood. The reason I disbelieve it is because observation suggests otherwise and nothing actually supports it. Just support for the mortal belief that it's that way.

And please everyone calm down. Why is it that any deviation from TIL-endorsed lore is met with such overwhelming resistance and hostility?

The word occasional implies that there are various mentions of topic and that it being godblood only appears here and there, when actually whenever the topic is mentioned godsblood is also brought up, thus your use of the 'occasional' is wrong. I don't normally get so nitpicky about language, but in this case you're using it as the crux of your argument.

And I didn't say volcanoes, I said volcanic activity.

None of this is relevant. The assertion being maintained is that it is godsblood, not that it comes exclusively from Red Mountain or the blood of Lorkhan's Heart.


As for the "Blood of the Daedra" quest, that is hardly a trustworthy source. Two of the artifacts acceptable are not even Daedric artifacts (Volendrung and Spell Breaker), while legitimate Daedric artifacts such as Mehrunes Razor and the Staff of Sheogorath are unacceptable. I imagine I could also make an argument that the word 'blood' being used there is referring more to a 'vital essence' than physical blood.

I take it you didn't read my last post. We're not told why mortals believe it's godsblood, therefore all your claims about why mortals think the way they do are completely groundless. You cannot base an argument upon the claim its just a mortal belief, or that its only a mortal superstition, or that they just made a correlation and assume its godsblood, because we're never told why they believe its godsblood; these are all begging the question, which means your resting your argument on a logical fallacy.

False, as I pointed out it is the only base presented, which means that it is the only non-baseless claim that can be made. Your observation does not suggest otherwise, you're making presuppositions without support, calling it an observation, and then proceeding to call what follows a conclusion.



This has nothing to do with TIL-endorsed lore, partly because TIL does not endorse lore. My only reason for disagreeing with you is that you're wrong. The reason its overwhelming is because everybody else also knows that you're wrong, and are hoping that they can reasonably convince you of your error. The fact that they are adamant does not mean that they are hostile, only that they have too solid a ground not to stand on it.

As I've said before, it's a common belief. As far as I've seen, there's nothing actually pointing to it being anything more.


But you've not actually provided any evidence that it actually is, only evidence that mortals believe it. I get the feeling that we're going around in circles.


Spellbreaker and Volendrung are interesting cases, because they're both Dwemer artifacts And the Dwemer didn't worship any Daedra. As for the other two, Mehrunes Razor was implemented in a plugin and the Staff of Sheogorath was implemented in an expansion. That still doesn't explain why something in abundance in the original game wouldn't count. And as I've said before, Martin has much more knowledge regarding the Daedra than most other mortals. If any mortal in Cyrodiil would know, it would be him.


We're not directly told why, but one can draw some inferences from the fact that there's only one major source of volcanic activity in the Empire, one that was once much, much bigger than it is today, thus they have no way to know if all volcanoes could create it or just that one. And the fact is, you or anyone else hasn't given me any evidence of it being god's blood other than a few accounts with no base to back it up. Everything I've seen in the games suggests it's just as mundane any other ore.


I disagree, it only gives a basis for the fact that mortals believe it, and that's all that it gives. And nobody here has actually been able to give any evidence that it's more than a mortal belief with no actual factual basis other than the location of the ore. Why would ebony be so rare outside of the Deadlands and Red Mountain?



You know as well as I do how some people can get upset over these little debates. I understand things can get heated during one of these debates, but sometimes I feel like some tend to take it personally when I disagree with their views. I understand how it feels for one's views to be rejected, but it's not worth demonizing the other person. Not that you do it or anything, but I'm fairly certain you know what I'm talking about.

And I'll tell you that I believe you lack the evidence to make a clear accusation that I am wrong. If you're going to call me out on that, at least actually have some real evidence for it, not just some mortal belief with nothing behind it. We haven't seen anything suggesting ebony is anything more than a strong black glassy ore found exclusively in volcanic regions and makes very good weapons and heavy armor.

Frankly, though, it's clear we're at an impasse. I don't think the mortals are correct about this particular thing and you do. I understand you feel my claims are baseless, but if it's any consolation, I feel the same way about yours. But it's pretty clear that we won't be able to convince the other with the current level of information that we have right now. It's also pretty clear that we have very different ideas of what is groundless and what isn't. We can't come to a mutual consensus with the current level of information we have, because we look at what we have differently.

The only circle being made is that I make a point and then you proceed to defend your position rather than address my point, the two of which are not the same thing.

The reason you haven't seen me give any evidences for why its godsblood is because I'm not arguing against your conclusion, I'm arguing against your argument. Your conclusion might be right, we can't know for sure either way - the fact that I disagree with your conclusion is beside the point, your conclusion isn't what I'm concerned with, it's your argument, and your argument is faulty.

The reason your argument is faulty is because it's based on presumptions you've made about the world.

• You stated that "the idea that it's god's blood was made by mortals", when in fact you have no idea whether the idea was made by mortals, you only know that mortals told us about it.
  
• You stated that "mortals [have a] limited understanding of geology", when in fact you have no idea how much of an understanding mortals have about geology.
  
• You stated that it has "no actual basis other than superstition" when the question of whether or not its a superstition is the very thing you're trying to prove, thus you're begging the question, thereby committing a logical fallacy.
  
• You stated that "There's a reason I assume that mortals wouldn't know; Red Mountain is the only volcano in Tamriel, and the only source of Ebony in Tamriel." However your conclusion assumes that Ebony is volcanic in origin rather than divine, because if it is godsblood the fact that Red Mountain is the only volcano on Tamriel would be irrelevant.*
  
• You keep bringing up "divine barriers" despite that it has been pointed out numerous times that the assertion is that it's godsblood, not that its from Tamriel alone.**
  
• You stated that "the only reason people believe it's god's blood is because it's only found where the only volcano in the land is" and again that "they have no basis for it other than that it's mostly found in and around Red Mountain", when in fact you have no idea on what basis or why mortals believe its godsblood. You have speculation, yes, but that's not the question - you're making absolute statements, and absolute statements must be able to stand up on their own.
  
• You consistently downplay the idea that it's godsblood based on the fact that it is an idea held by mortals, as if their mortality somehow diminished the validity of their ideas.
  
• You stated that "The Deadlands also are geographically suitable for the formation of minerals similar to those under Red Mountain" when the question is whether or not it is formed geologically at all, thus yet again you're begging question.
  
• You ask "Why would ebony be so rare outside of the Deadlands and Red Mountain" which again begs the question as we have no idea of the rarity or abundance of Ebony outside the Deadlands and Red Mountain for the simple reason that we've experienced almost none of the other Daedric Realms and nothing outside Tamriel.
  
• Your rationale is based on correlation rather than real causation. You note the correlation that both Red Mountain and the Deadlands have lava and that both have ebony, and therefore conclude that one caused the other, which is insufficient as correlation doesn't equal causation (a basic principle of logic). This means that by the rules of logic that you have no real evidence, only speculation (whether or not your opposition has evidence is not what I'm questioning here, so you're missing the point if you rebuttal with that - again, I'm arguing against your argumentation).

Can you really deny any of those points? Or can you only divert. First, make sure your own argument is completely full of holes and based on presumption, then try and convince your audience. I'll go so far as to make a deal: If you can support even a few of those statements I listed, I'll cede the point. Tell me how you know that the idea of godsblood was made by mortals. Tell me how you know that mortals don't understand geology. Tell me how you know their only basis is superstition or their only basis is that's its found in Red Mountain. Tell me how you know that The Deadlands are geologically suitable for Ebony without begging the question. These aren't just a few statements that are on the side of your argument, you've been consistently stating these things over and again. You've posited all these as de facto statements, is it too much for me to ask you to back them up?




*Tendris Vedran says that "most of the continent's deposits are here on Vvardenfell", not that all of them are. King Edward, Part II says that "Moraelyn... wanted to mine for ebony in the Wrothgarian Mountains," which would at least suggest that there are deposits of it there. Lheban in Fool's Ebony suggests similarly in stating that "There's a pile of real ebony up in the Wrothgarians somewhere north, I hear tell." There's also Auriel's Shield, an ebony shield which would have been around before Red Mountain. The Legendary Scourge states that the mace was "forged from sacred ebony in the Fountains of Fickledire", whereever the hell that's at.
**This seems to be a hinge point in your argument, since if you accept that we're talking about godsblood in a more general sense than you are you must accept that our theory is just as likely as yours. This is because you think you're theory gains validity because ours can't account for there being Ebony in the Deadlands, which is false, since we're not denying that Dagon can bleed just as well as anybody else.

It's the most likely answer; there's a volcano with the Heart of Lorkhan which happens to be where most of the ebony is. I can think of two immediate explanations for this that would come to mind, and the denizens of Tamriel always seem to take the more bizarre theory for something.


Not much of an idea, but given the scientific knowledge of the other fields that the current mortal civilizations possess, it's more likely than not pretty poor.


Because again, given the complete lack of supporting evidence that it's the blood of gods, it seems more likely than not that it's just mortal superstition.


Yes I did draw that conclusion, because there are exactly two places we've seen where the stuff is in abundance; Red Mountain and the Deadlands, both of which are volcanic regions. None in the Shivering Isles. If anything would count as God's Blood it would be amber. And that's literally sap from a mammoth root system stemming from the Tree of Madness. Also note that ebony occurs as ore, just like adamantine, silver, gold, and iron ores.


Again, we've only seen exactly two locations where it's in abundance, both of which are volcanic. There wasn't any such substance in the Shivering Isles; Madness Ore seemed to be something different, as it only appears in places once inhabited and supposedly filled with spirits. Amber is more of a "god's blood" than Ebony, and it's a completely different substance. But why would the substances in the Deadlands be so similar to the substances in Red Mountain but completely different from the substances in the Shivering Isles?


If you can find any other solid basis for this belief, feel free to tell me.


It do think less because they're mortals; Dwemer technology has been sitting unused for millenna and mortals still are at the same poor scientific level that they were several thousand years ago. Not exactly what I call scientific progress. What would they know about how anything works? Yes it's an inference but the fact remains that neither theory has enough evidence to do without it.


We haven't seen any ebony deposits in the Shivering Isles. Or in any non-volcanic environment at all.



This is one of those topics where neither point can be made without some degree of inferences and speculations. The theory that it is god's blood requires deciding that the local explanation that ebony is Lorkhan's blood is true, despite no real evidence supporting it. So yes, I suppose I do draw inferences and make speculations. Because with what little information we have, that's pretty much all we can do.



Wait, you're willing to say that my theory is as likely as yours? That's pretty generous, and sounds like a fair compromise to me.

Look at that, I actually used the maximum number of quote tags allowed in one post.

I'm not going to bother quoting someone here but RE: Dremora arms vs Daedric arms

First, there is no such thing as Dremora armor (in game or extrapolated, don't bother pointing me to CS, because it's flagged unobtainable, therefore there is a perfectly good reason why the PC can't loot it off their corpse). The thought of that is taken from Morrowind which was that Dremora coalesce their shape to make it look like they're wearing Daedric armor and only the highest ranking members of the Kyn wear it (the Valkyn).

Second, even once you disregard the fact that it's likely the same (Daedric) smith or school of smithing forged both Daedric and Dremora weapons, thus producing very similar looking pieces, weapons can be forged using other materials to make it look like they're forged using ebony. You can in fact even replicate weight and balance (all of them combined, though, would take some magic). However, you would not be able to replicate the sword's ability to keep an edge in battle, as that is dictated by the strength of the material.

Third, even if they didn't forge a soul into the weapon, making it truly Daedric, if they had access to such large amounts of Ebony, why would they forge it into such substandard weapons? Why not equip their entire army with Ebony weapons and armor and not use such variable quality of "Dremora"? It'd be like having steel weapons and armor against bronze weapons and armor. You'd slaughter your enemies. Answer, because Ebony is rare. You can't equip an army with it. Even if there is Ebony elsewhere in Oblivion, it's definitely not something the Daedra can just produce, unlike the copious amounts of Madness Ore/Amber you find. Therefore, Ebony can't be transmuted from some baser form of Creatia. Something else has to be added to it. I'm not gonna touch the "Godsblood" argument because I've only skimmed the argument and don't want to blindly wade in, but if its not something that can be transformed from Magick, then Ebony has to be associated with the only other thing the Daedra can't touch. Mundus.

My point: Dremora arms are not made from Ebony. They are made to look like they are. Daedric is made of Ebony. Ebony is rare, Dremora isn't.

But it offers varying degrees of protection (and weighs the same as true Daedric armor, encumbering the Dremora as much as if it were true Daedric). As I recall, the Imperial Guards also had unobtainable armor.



First of all, it doesn't seem implausible to have varying grades of ebony. Second, making true Daedric equipment is more than just refining and shaping ore; it may not be plausible for even the Dremora to equip an entire army with it. Third, whether or not it's god's blood or igneous glass, the Dremora have a much better source of the stuff in their own realm.

Isn't ebony also found in veins along Skyrim between Adamantine Tower in the Iliac Bay (where the Heart was thrown from) and Red Mountain (where it landed)? I can't remember who said that, but that's another thing. And they take the more "bizzare" explanation because Tamriel does not obey real-world rules of physics and does not have Earth's history, and the bizzare is more often true in a world where magic is science and vice-versa.


Since this is Tamriel and not the real world where their science is in fact magic and theology they are pretty advanced. You seem to be applying real-world tiers of cultural complexity to it even though those are not valid.





Since Daedric realms are their Princes, then that means that any ebony found in the deadlands is in fact a part of Dagon. Since Lorkhan and Dagon are alternate halves of a cycle of creation and destruction their blood is alike, where Sheogorath, a "wild card" who is unlike any other Daedra Prince and is not part of that cycle would have different blood.



See above, and that ebony is found between Adamantine Tower and Red Tower (where it would have dripped from his flinging heart).



Because you're assuming that science in a world where science is magic would manifest in the same kinds of technology. If a fireball spell can do better than a grenade, why invent grenades? If a healing spell can do better than surgery, why invent surgery? You're assuming real-world progression in a world with no relation to ours.




Yes, it can, by not assuming that all evidence is wrong. If you assume that all sources are wrong, then why do you even bother? Seriously, the main issue here is twofold. First: no matter what evidence is shown for anything you'll brush it aside and say it's fake because it was done in-character. That is ridiculous. Second, you're assuming that everything in a fantasy world with an entirely different set of underlying rules than our own will act and work the same. Newton's Laws do not exist in Tamriel, so of course things will be different. Gods are quantifiable fact on Nirn where on Earth they are a matter of faith. But if I applied you first point to reality, we know nothing about the Universe because even if we look and quantifiably prove something we are finite people and therefore everything we say is immediately wrong and to be ignored no matter the evidence provided.

Really, I know you have opinions but if you're opinion is to parrot that all the lore is wrong and all the evidence is fake if it is contrary to that then there's really no point for you to say it more than once because saying "nothing is true and all your evidence saying it is is invalid because it's written by people" means nothing, and does nothing. If all of us were to agree with you there would be no point to a lore forum or even TES lore in general because all of it would be false and pointless.

There is at least one volcano in Hammerfell, according to the Infernal City. Just sayin'.

[edited] From the http://web.archive.org/web/20031219233039/www.elderscrolls.com/index.php?url=/codex/codex_ingredients.htm&bg=03



In other words, no, the (permanently bound) armor of Dremora is not what we commonly know as Daedric. Its much more likely that the craftsmen of Tamriel modeled their armor on the armor of Oblivion, since they are using Daedric souls in manufacture. The fact that they appear the same is likely game mechanics - Morrowind, for one, does include helms which are not found on Dremora.

¹ Which does not mean that its absolutely not god's blood. Metaphor, alternate realities, and stuff.
² King Edward states that it is also mined in the Wrothgarian mountains.

It's rather typical for the whole genera actually

I don't think Dremora equipment is bound, because bound equipment is weightless, while Dremora equipment is as heavy as its Daedric counterpart.


Unlike actual technology, magic has never succeeded in making bows and swords obsolete. For that matter, they still have trade caravans and wind-powered ships.


"All evidence" being nothing more than a local explanation. There's absolutely nothing that supports it beyond that. The other thing is that I don't see why everything has to work completely differently, especially when there's plenty of stuff that works the same. In fact, physics works pretty much the same as it does in real life.


I don't say all lore is wrong. I rather say that all lore is not indisputably right. I look for explanations with equal or greater possibility that are overlooked because of the lack of scientific pursuit in Tamriel's denizens.

Really now? You're going to argue the meaning of "bound"? I was using it to mean attached to their bodies in a permanent sense, since it can't be looted in game. Obviously its not the same as the "bound armor" spell in game.

I know I'm repeating myself (and my counterparts) ad nauseam here, but real-world science does not and cannot apply to Tamriel. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-treatise-proper-calcinator-use http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-modern-heretics http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-notes-racial-phylogeny-and-biology http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-lithnilian-research-notes http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-kagouti-mating-habits http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-journeyman-report-ajira, its just does not come to the same conclusions as our own.

[edit] Physics works the same? Tell that to levitation, telekinesis, and the jump spell. Same goes for everything else. For everything that works the same there are three things that would be impossible - or very, very hard to do - on Earth. The very fact that gods exist pretty much makes standard thought irrelevant.

I always figured it was no different from the also unlootable Imperial Watch Armor that Watch Captains and Palace Guards wear.


It doesn't follow exactly, but it work very similarly. Most things going outside it are due to magic bending things.


Those are examples of magic bending physics. Else you wouldn't need a levitation spell to levitate.

Dremora armor was also unlootable in Morrowind, where all other armor could be taken freely (yes, they were creatures, but they could have dropped the armor or been done as NPCs, just like in Oblivion). You can't use game mechanics to refute a point (Dremora armor as permanently bound to them) and then use it to support one (dremora armor = daedric armor, physics works the same).

Magic does not exist in the real world, and cannot exist in the real world. Thats the crux of the argument. Magic, as an integral part of Nirn, impacts their physics/biology/botany/chemistry/astronomy/etc. every day, in both obvious ways (the levitation spell) and lesser ones (racial affinity to certain types of magic). Physics is defined as "study of matter and its motion through spacetime, as well as all related concepts, including energy and force" and magic cannot be separated from that on Nirn. Magic (and gods) are not just added on top of Earth to make Nirn, they are inseparable from Nirn. Its like trying to ignore gravity when studying real world science, or ignore the role that WWII played on the emergence of modern society: it leaves you with an incomplete picture, at best.

As I recall, Golden Saint armor was also unlootable in Morrowind, as also was the case in the Shivering Isles, and in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:The_Helpless_Army, if you're the Duke/Duchess of Dementia, Staada will give you the armor and helmet of a Golden Saint when you finish the quest. I suspect it's not that much different for Dremora.


I think of magic as something extra, that while it doesn't exist in the real world, it doesn't replace science fully in the TES universe, but nonetheless supplements the setting.

My comment was in response to your assertion that Dremora armor is like Legion and Palace Guard armor, both of which are unlootable for gameplay, not because they are attached to their bodies. So Goldensaints (which are like Dremora in that their armor is permanently bound in a game sense) have nothing to do with this.


It replaces enough of it for traditional science to not be the end-all solution. Dwemer machines (cited earlier as an example of science) operate by tapping into the energy of the Heart. Mashing together some glass and soap, then diluting it with water and drinking it will make you resistant to fire (as opposed to scratching up your insides and poisoning you). Mages have teleport platforms instead of stairs, and can send you across the world for a nominal fee. Tamriel's internet is a timeless dimension... which just happens to also process souls. Sure, the obvious things may be the same (stuff falls down), but as soon as you look past what is needed to make the world identifiable you run into problems that physics cannot solve.

[edit] To clarify, it is impossible to have a world with wholly alien physics because the player could not identify with it (and the author probably couldn't do a very good job writing it). Gravity and time needs to remain in order for the world to be understandable. A game where everything takes place backwards and upside down would be needlessly confusing. TES actually breaks a lot more than most fantasy, with Dragonbreaks and all.

Aside from the alchemy thing, it's not replacing but supplementing.

As for your assertion that Dwemer machinery draw power from the Heart, why would they keep going after the enchantments were destroyed, the Heart was removed and the Tower was deactivated? I always just figured they were most likely geothermally powered.

Because scripting everything to stop once the quest is completed is a huge pain in the butt? The centurions actually power down if taken far enough from Vvardenfell, and power back on when they are taken closer.