This debate is the epiphany of "circle to nowhere", not to mention this "Tamriel vs Real world" schtick has been done before with much the same results. Lets just try and keep it simple, since folks seem to be so adamant about it:

1) Both people and literature in-game state that Ebony/Glass are indeed "godsblood", no in-universe source ever challenges that. Ever.
2) No dev has ever come forward to tell us it was anything but "godsblood". Ever.
3) It's widely accepted by devs, forumers, and game characters that the substance is "godsblood".
4) Assuming MK or someone had ever come forward and said: "Ebony and Glass are the leftover substance from when two yaks got it on while Masser was waxing and Secunda was wanning" you might have an argument, since that never happened see #2
5) We know for a fact a god died, this is indesputable, so from a mythological in-game stand-point it isn't too far into the realm of ridiculous to assume that if the dead gods heart was removed by force, then hurled into the plane(t), then even primordial mortals would have assumed it to be "the blood of the dead god".
6) Godsblood has, and always will, sound way friggin cooler then "ebony and glass". Always.
7) It's the blood of the universes dead god, anything else would rocket it into the "BaTW" category, which is a negative place to be rocketed to.

It's "Godsblood". Deal with it.

What about those in Hammer Fell?

I don't think it's the heart but another equally impossible power source.

Exciting!

Nice find Shades.

Except that question was asked by Dave Humphrey, of the UESP, from the same real world perspective. Alvur's response just repeats that Ebony is god's blood, answering "Are there any metals or gems that are unique to Morrowind because of the volcano or otherwise?"

Not really since we don't know question-asker's friends background. He could have been an isolationist Dunmer that read that on a pamphlet, or the ghost of "continental drift" past. Alvur probably doesn't get out much himself.

Still gives no explaination whatsoever for godsblood being all the way across Tamriel and probably beyond. The question-asker also contradicts himself .

We already know thats crap due to the two cited in-game books others already quoted.


Also since we're just desputing a topic that has never even been called into question: The "glow-rock" near Rimmen is corrupted Godsblood. Prove that it is anything else.


Edit: Seems Dave Humphrey is "question-asker", doesnt actually relate to what his friend may or may not know though.

Edit: nevermind about that first part.

I don't know of any instance where ebony is referred to as the blood of the gods by non-Dunmer or anyone from outside Morrowind. As far as I know, only Morrowind natives believe it to be such.

I was quoting that to show that the idea came out of an era of poor decisions. It looks like they corrected one between then and the publishing.

I actually think that Dremora equipment was Lore-wise removable. It probably has weight becuase it isn't summoned but rather the natural form of those specific Daedra. This logic would also say that a summoned Daedra is weightless, wich is unmentioned but there is also no referance to their weight.

In my opinion in the actual lore it probably is removable, but its stats are pretty low compared to high class Daedric armor so it would have been redundant. It's not much higher quality than Steel. It's like Steel 1.5 as far as stats go. It's not really worth being lootable. It's like the Imperial Palace Guard armor. It looks shiny and fine but it's probably only marginally better than rank and file Imperial Legion armor, just more polished and painted up really pretty.

Some people say it's the actual skin of the lower level Dremora or it's grafted onto them but that makes little logical sense when you consider the mages, or the fact that higher level Dremora can be looted of their armor and they obviously have smooth humanoid skin. Unless the suggestion is that the lower ranked Dremora are of a different sub species or something, they're logically wearing armor too. This is a case of people mistaking game mechanics for lore IMO.

I challenged you before to tell me how you know any of the claims you make, and you managed with many more words than necessary to state that you don't know, admitting that all of the support you posit for your argument is based on presumption (that is, consistently arguing that your case is correct based on statements that would only be true if your case is correct, thereby begging the question - the most recent example being your statement that all the evidence for it being godsblood is "nothing more than a local explanation", when in truth you do not know whether it is nothing more than a local explanation and the only way that it would only be a local explanation is if your position is true, which is the very thing you're trying to prove). All of your 'evidence' only works if we presuppose that your argument is true (which is the opposite of them proving your argument).

Since in my last challenge you didn't actually deny arguing from a fallacy, I'll issue another simpler challenge which will be helpful to everybody. See if you can state, as concisely as possible, what your argument for ebony not being godsblood is. The restriction is that if you do not know a fact to be absolutely true in itself you cannot use it in your explanation, nor can you beg the question (that is, you can't say things like "because it's only a mortal superstition" because those type of statements presuppose what you're trying to prove).

Furthermore, I'd like to know if you think there are any aspects to the discussion that cannot be equally accounted for by the opposing view, and if so state them.


Edit: Oh, and if it counts for anything, Cyrus also calls it godsblood in the Sword-Meeting (meaning for all those who accept the text it proves that it is not just a localized idea).

After some thinking about it, I realized something interesting; ebony need not be one or the other; it's plausible for it to be both, if the gods are their realms. In fact, looking back, my original theory never needed it to not be god's blood. I'll admit that I got sidetracked on the misconception that ebony being crystallized god's blood and ebony being an igneous substance are mutually exclusive and I apologize.

My proof is the lack of the ore in the Shivering Isles, the abundance of it in the hands of the Dremora, the abundance of it in Red Mountain, and the Divine barriers that aside from during the Oblivion Crisis, made mining in Tamriel and shipping the ore into the Deadlands impossible. And the geological similarities between Red Mountain and the Deadlands, which is not shared by the Shivering Isles or most of the rest of Tamriel. And the fact that ebony is commonly found in surface lava flows.

My theory, my original one, is that ebony is an igneous material formed from cooled lava.

If we also go by the idea that it's also god's blood, the theory extends to say that lava (and magma) is god's blood. Given that the Daedra Princes are considered to be their realm, that molten rock is typically found below the surface (outside of certain geological features) and that ebony is frequently found where lava is on the surface, this makes perfect sense.

Everybody's happy.


Didn't MK say the story wasn't necessarily true?

Edit: I got a challenge for you; refrain from attacking me in subsequent posts. I admitted I made a mistake along the way that didn't contribute to what I was actually theorizing in the first place and I'm sorry. I also understand that this may seem a but abrupt, but I assure you of my sincerity.

All of these observations are true, but none of them cannot be accounted for by the opposite stance, which is why I said that it is just as likely. However, it seems we have moved past that dichotomy of one or the other, so yay for that.

That said, I do like the perspective of it being both, that the vital essences of the contributing Aedra could manifest itself in the form of volcanic ore, being brought up from the depths of Mundus (because where else would the vital essence/lifeblood of the Earthbones reside?) by volcanic activity. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to say that lava itself is godsblood - it seems more likely that it is a carrier, or that the godsblood energy forms the lava in which it moves. There is a sort of precedence for this in the Heart of Lorkhan being originally thrown into the depths of the sea where it's energies or some mystic force reacted with the earth around it to form a massive volcano, bringing forth the bleeding Heart from the depths where it was supposed to be forever hidden. Of course, even with all this it is still quite plausible that a large amount of the ebony on Vvardenfell is due to a god's Heart landing there - and even if one doesn't accept that it is blood directly from the Heart's landing, the Heart is still indirectly responsible in that it created Red Mountain and brought up what we could assume to be it's blood and possibly that of the world at large (which is the same thing).

Congrats.

I'm not attacking you, I'm debating you. If I was attacking you I would type in all caps and use symbols like this :gun: .

Besides, had I not 'attacked' you you would not have developed your idea to where it has come now, and both of use would still be thinking in the dichotomy we were before (though, of course, I would still have been right ).

No story of Cyrus is necessarily true. A story shouldn't need to be true to entertain. (http://daryam.com/WWPD.html)

You've made a collection of facts, but they don't proof what you are trying to show. To show this I have to clear it up a bit:

Goal:
P) Ebony is a material formed from cooled lava.

Facts:
1. Ebony is abundant on Vvardenfell
2. Ebony is abundant in the Deathlands.
3. Lava is abundant on Vvarndefll.
4. Lava is abundant in the Deathlands.
5. Ebony is found in places where lava is or once was on Vvardenfell.
6. There is no Ebony in the Shivering Isles.
7. There is no Lava in the Shivering Isles.

Reasoning:
8. Because of 3 & 4 we can say that Vvardenfell and the Deathlands are geologically similar.
9. Because of 3 & 7 we can say that Vvardenfell and the Shivering Isles are geologically different.
10. Because of 4 & 7 we can say that Deathlands and the Shivering Isles are geologically different.
11. Because of 1 & 2 we can say that the Deathlands and Vvardenfell have similar amounts of Ebony.
12. Because of 8 & 9 we can sya that Vvarndefell and the Deathlands are geologically different from the Shivering Isles.

Yet we can't conclude the following.

a) Because of 8 & 5 Ebony in place where lava once is or was in the Deathlands. This would require that we use P - ebony is made from cooled lava. We can't use P because it's what we try to proof. *

b) Because of 6 & 12 the geological difference explains the lack of ebony. This would require P - ebony is made from cooled lava. Otherwise the geological difference which is based on the lava does have any connection to the ebony. *

* Note that while we do have 5) this observation only holds for Ebony found in Tamriel. What we need is an observation where Ebony is mined from lava or from places where lava has been in the Deathlands.

Another interesting point to note is that you can't proof a universal statement. The most we could hope for is to conclude that "Ebony is a material formed from cooled lava for all known sources of lava".

Daedric and Ebony are more or less the same substance, you said it yourself and are both abundant in areas with lots of lava. Thus it more likely than not forms in a similar manner to ebony. It's certainly the more probable answer than anything you can actually provide to the contrary.


If you can find a better (and by that I mean more likely and more plausible) reason why there's so little ebony outside Red Mountain and the Deadlands, and so much in those areas, feel free to come up with one. And saying it's god's blood won't work, because that's not mutually exclusive with being an igneous substance.


Lava is everywhere in the Deadlands. And again, I find it more likely than not that if ebony is found near lava, then the very similar substance that the Dremora have is also found near lava. Not conclusive, but again more likely than not.


It's a theory, there's always a little room for doubt. If you can actually come up with an opposing theory that not only takes all the facts we know into account, and remains probable and plausible, feel free to tell me.

We don't know that the armor worn by Dremora is the same Daedric armor as is made from enchanted ebony in Tamriel. Even if we assume that it is absolutely identical, ebony is also mined in the Wrothgarian mountains of Highrock, where no lava is reported.

And it plays into the funny relationship between reality and symbolism that TES is all about.

We have several examples of armors, both of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Madness_Armor and of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Amber_Armor, that come in varying grades. And that's not even including the unlootable armors worn by the Daedric servants of Sheogorath, which can nevertheless be obtained. It stands to reason that Dremora armor could be very well a lower grade of Daedric. Even jewels have varying grades of quality.

And just because because there's no lava where ebony is now doesn't mean there wasn't lava there once.

It's probably made from similar material but is of weaker craftsmanship. Maybe it uses weaker daedric souls, or maybe the smiths don't put as much time and effort into tempering it.

Remember that these are the armor pieces and weapons of the rank and file soldiers of the Dremora legions, of which there are thousands upon thousands. You don't mass produce the very best equipment for foot soldiers who are for all intents and purposes expendable. You give them the basic stuff and set them loose.

My hypothesis is that it looks identical and harms undead because it is indeed made of the same substances and forged into a similar shape. The difference is in the amount of tempering and the strength of the soul that goes into it.

It's the difference between a master class Katana whose steel is folded seven or more times and an apprentice class one which is only folded two or three times. It looks identical to the untrained eye but it fails under far less pressure.

It might also be noted that their could be 'weaker' forms of ebony. Fool's Ebony (for whatever scholarly value that text has) is described as being related to real ebony while lacking the magical properties, being somewhat softer, and being flammable. I think we can assume that the Dremora are not wearing the Fool's Ebony described given that they don't catch on fire, but it leaves the door open to discussion as to whether what they are wearing is really ebony, just some lesser/less pure form of it.

If I wanted to be purely speculative, I might say that since Dagon bleeds so much (either intentionally or because he's a god of destruction who's always losing) his blood has a way of losing its potency, thereby resulting in an abundance of this weaker form of ebony for him to outfit his armies with.

I'm not debating the conclusion that "Ebony is a material formed from cooled lava". Actually I'm trying to come up with a reasoning that supports that conclusion. Yet I'm having a little trouble doing this from the facts you provided.

You use the word "Daedric" in a sense that seems to imply "Daedric ore". Yet Daedric ore is not a known concept in lore.
I assume that Daedric Armor is made from Ebony. You seem to assume the same you've said in your proof that: "the abundance of it in the hands of the Dremora, the abundance of it in Red Mountain" The only relevant abundance in red mountain is ebony. Hence fact 2: Ebony is abundant in the Deathlands.

You agree that fact 2 is correct, no?

It's also important to realize that correlation is not causation. The co-occurrence of two events does not say anything about the cause of either event. They might co-occur because of a third event which always causes both events. As such their correlation doesn't say anything about the likelihood of "Ebony being a material formed from cooled lava". It does suggest though that when you do find lava, you have a good chance at finding raw ebony.

Yet we don't even have such a correlation. What I'd say is missing from the argument is the observation that raw ebony is found in places where lava is or once was in the Deathlands. Then we could say that raw ebony is (nearly) always found near lava so it might be cooled lava. Currently the only ebony found in the Deathlands is generally found in processed form near or on dead Dremora. Basically you need to find an ebony mine in the Deathlands.

---

Also I've updated the argument to reflect more percicely that Daedric Armor is abundant in the dealands, and that thus Daedric ore must be in abundance in the Deadlands. I've also added the fact that Ebony is also found in places where there is no Lava.

Goal:
P) Ebony is a material formed from cooled lava.

Facts:
1. Ebony is abundant on Vvardenfell

2a. Daedric Armor is abundant in the Deadlands.
2b. Daedric Armor is made from raw ebony.
2. (2a& 2b) Ebony is abundant in the Deathlands.
3. Lava is abundant on Vvarndefll.
4. Lava is abundant in the Deathlands.
5. Ebony is found in places where lava is or once was on Vvardenfell.
6. There is no Ebony in the Shivering Isles.
7. There is no Lava in the Shivering Isles.
8. Ebony is found in places where there is no lava.

Reasoning:
8. Because of 3 & 4 we can say that Vvardenfell and the Deathlands are geologically similar.
9. Because of 3 & 7 we can say that Vvardenfell and the Shivering Isles are geologically different.
10. Because of 4 & 7 we can say that Deathlands and the Shivering Isles are geologically different.
11. Because of 1 & 2 we can say that the Deathlands and Vvardenfell have similar amounts of Ebony.
12. Because of 8 & 9 we can sya that Vvarndefell and the Deathlands are geologically different from the Shivering Isles.

---

Maybe it's a less pure form of it because it's mixed with other minerals. It's watered down somewhat like 24 karat gold. I doubt Ebony is the only mineral mined in the Deadlands. This could be a way of maintaining the basic appearance and holding a Daedric soul, but would be far less potent.

Wow! Just wow!

Does every thread here turn into something like this - Totally off-topic dissertations on interpretations of an imaginary existence? :blush: :twirl:

Well, carry on, never mind me, I think I got my answer. :laugh:

They used their time to debate in your topic.