I'll say hi to the lore buffs here in this part of the forums - I've seen the threads many times, but never ever replied as I've more to read and less to contribute.

I am looking into a mod that may possibly add amber/madness weapons to the NPCs in Cyrodiil - at first blush, this seems lore-unfriendly to me. But someone countered by indicating the presence of daedric weapons/armor in Cyrodiil as well...

As I have never played Shivering Isles (even though I've had it for many years now), so can't really tell so I come to you gurus. Would this be lore-friendly to have Amber/Madness stuff in Cyrodiil?

Daedric armor is Ebony infused with Daedric souls, so while rare, its possible to manufacture it in Tamriel. Madness and Amber armor, on the other hand, are crafted from ingredients found solely in the Shivering Isles, and hence can only be created there. I suppose a set could have been brought over to Cyrodiil from SI sometime in the past, however.

In other words, its very unlikely, but theoretically possible.

I think "Daedric" armor is made in the Deadlands, as not only is it geologically similar to Red Mountain, thus suitable for the formation of ebony-like substances, but it's clearly in the style of the Dremora, in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

Madness Armor, given it's made in the Shivering Isles out of local materials, could be considered the equivalent of Daedric and Dremora Armor (as like its Deadland counterpart, it comes in a wide variety of qualities). Even if it isn't actually made of the same substance.

it could exist, but would only be found on people who worship sheogorath/sheogorath likes. put some on the dudes at his alter, give it to Glarthir, and random artists/creative people.

yep, and make it available only with SI installed, you know.

It's godsblood, the lava is irrelevant, unless Dagon is the only other god that can bleed.

Madness Armor would seem distinct to the Shivering Isles (and possibly for blessed Sheogorath worshippers).

Amber Armor, however, seems like it should be possible anywhere that one can find tree-sap.

That's just what the mortals, with their limited understanding of geology, say to explain the rare glassy substances that they otherwise couldn't explain. Whatever Daedric is made of, it's very similar to ebony and comes from a place with geology similar to the interior of Red Mountain.

You are assuming that mortals have a limited understanding and thus concluding that they must be wrong. This is not a very productive stance as you won't be able to argue anything at all. You can get allot more done, if you invest in some nuance and assume sources to be correct until shown otherwise. This is a reasonable assumption considering that this is a game and the narrators needs to get basic information across to tell the story.

So what do we have:



We have a source to note that Daedric weapons are made from raw ebony.



And we have a source to note that raw ebony is said to be the blood of the gods. Not unreasonable considering that the crash site of Lorkhans heart has the highest concentration of Ebony.

And with nothing to the contrary we can assume both to be true.

I doubt just any kind of tree sap can form amber strong enough to be made into armor. My guess is that the amber used in weapons and armor in Shivering Isles can only form there, and therefore amber armor and weapons could only be made using local materials. So I would say that neither madness nor amber armor could be made in Tamriel, but I certainly see no reason why, if people who had been in the Shivering Isles went to Cyrodiil, they could not bring the armor and weapons there back with them. So your best bet if you want to add it is have someone who visited the Shivering Isles, then came back wearing it, it certainly wouldn't be something you should find on just any bandit, of course, many of the items in the game that you can find on bandits really shouldn't be something just any bandit would have.



To be fair, the the in-game dialog and books that relate the Elder Scrolls lore to players have been wrong in the past. Still, in the world of fiction, there's a good chance that if something you have been told has not been contradicted by another source, then it's true within the context of the setting. Of course, it may be that something we're told turns out to be wrong at a later time, but if we're not given a reason to believe otherwise and the information comes from what seems like a credible in-universe source, it's likely best to just assume it's true, and I haven't heard anything to suggest that ebony and Daedric armor are anything other than what we're told they are.

I'd be only appropriate for Madness armour to become something entirely different outside of the Isles, like say toilet paper. :twirl:



Exactly!

I would imagine that for the duration of the gate in the Niben Basin being open, it would be possible for the COC to transport materials to and from the Shivering Isles.

Meaning he could possibly leave common items from Tamriel and Oblivion there, including Glass, Ebony and Daedric armor and weapons, and take raw materials and suits of armor from there to Tamriel. Amber and Madness Ore to name a couple.

Madness is a type of ore, like iron, so it would probably never be fully possible to mine that on Tamriel. It's truly tied in with the landscape of the Shivering Isles.

Amber appears to come from a certain type of tree.

Would such a tree have seeds, and could those seeds be planted on Nirn? That's a legitimate question with no right or wrong answer as of now.

The climate on the SI seems livable to mortals, and so the same types of plants should theoretically be able to grow in either place.

I'm going to assume for those reasons that an Amber tree could be planted in Cyrodill at least, if not multiple places on Nirn, and that the production of Amber armor and weapons would be possible with the right schematics.

To be honest, presence of daedric weapons in Cyrodiil, as it was implemented in TES IV, seems lore unfreiendly by itself.

In fact, there are three types of "Daerdic" Armour\Weapons: Daedric, which is created from tamrielic ebony mixed with daedra soul, Bound, which is a lesser daedra, and Dremora Armour\Weapons. Amber and Madness Armour possible closer to the second or third type.

Amber and Madness have different strengths/qualities as well, while looking identical.

I would imagine the differences center on the quality of the craftsmanship, which either depends on the skill of the smith or the money the customer is willing to pay.

I suspect the reason Amber in the Shivering Isles is special is because it's sap from the Tree of Madness, which all the root channels come from.


There's a reason I assume that mortals wouldn't know; Red Mountain is the only volcano in Tamriel, and the only source of Ebony in Tamriel. And it's the resting place for Lorkhan's heart. It wouldn't be unreasonable for mortals to assume its presence is due to the Heart, instead of that it could just be a naturally occurring substance given the geological conditions. And it's certainly not a stretch to assume that they're not right about everything they say and write.


I'm well aware of the mortal perception of things and where it's derived from. However, there are a few problems with the mortal theory.

1) Ebony is one of the most highly regulated and rare substances in all of Tamriel. How does Mehrunes Dagon have so much ebony if he got it all from Tamriel?
2) Even if there was enough for Mehrunes Dagon's purposes, with the divine barriers in place, it is impossible for Mehrunes Dagon's underlings to be able to mine and then move more than a few pieces of ebony from Tamriel to the Deadlands. If Red Tower was actually active since the Heart fell into it, than it makes even less sense.
3) What do you think a mortal would classify Daedric equipment as? They've never been to the Deadlands, and there's only one volcano in Tamriel, so there's no way of them knowing whether or not ebony can form anywhere lava cools at a certain rate, or if it's actually the blood of Lorkhan. And it's not like we actually have any evidence for the casual belief that it's the blood of Lorkhan.

You assume that all ebony in existence come from Tamriel. But this hasn't been stated. There are only two claims right now. a) Daedric Weapons are made from raw ebony. b) Raw ebony is gods blood. Considering that ebony is described as gods blood, it is not unreasonable to assume that Mehrunes has plenty of it. He is very much like Lorkhan after all.

Now we don't need more then this casual belief. This is a fictional reality so we can assume sources to be correct until shown otherwise.

If that was the case, then Martin would have been able to use a piece of your average Daedric armor or weapon as "blood of the Daedra". People say ebony is god's blood without any evidence at all, it's just a common belief stemming from the fact that Red Mountain is where all the ebony is.


I look at it differently. I don't view things as true until proven false, I prefer to look at why they say such things, and why they would believe it. I certainly haven't seen anything actually suggesting it's true.

Actually there's a lot of evidence to support this "casual" belief, but I digress. Anyways Alvur might have something to say on the matter:


Keep in mind of Dagon's role in "2920", and the state of Almalexia as of Morrowind. Theres really no one to say whether a band of strip-mining scamps made off with carts full of Ebony while Mehrunes was wreaking havoc. Theres also alot of unmined Ebony in "Old" Alma, and who knows how many sealed off tunnels which could have contained mines and devs-only-know what else.

Theres also the possibility that Lorkhan passed through Oblivion before he ever hit Red Mountain. :whisper:

That's not evidence that it's god's blood, that's just evidence that people believe it's god's blood. And while it is possible for Daedra to enter Tamriel, it's one thing to be able to get through and another thing to constantly be going in and out carting ore back to the Deadlands.

Its obvious that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony. Duh.

Not in Nirn, I mean there are weapons and armor made out of it. It has to be a metal in the Tamrielic sense...

And coming back to the original question - so what is the consensus?

That very few people outside SI should have the armor/weapons, correct? I mean, those who visited SI or were favorites of Sheggy should be the only ones getting these...right?

She was being sarcastic.




I don't see what would have prevented the COC from carrying those materials out into Tamriel by the arm full.

Don't think I recall anyone ever stating that Ebony is anything other then Godsblood. Which means that if one sect of people believe thats it's Godsblood, and no other sect ever contends this statement, then it's widely acceptable to believe that the substance is indeed Ebony/Godsblood, wouldn't it?

Other princes hand out ebony artifacts as well, so maybe it isn't so uncommon in Oblivion.




I would imagine as much, maybe a really good cultist would have some. It'd still be rarer then rare in general Tamriel though.

Yeah it's worth noting that the Ebony Blade and Goldbrand are almost certainly forged from Ebony. I would imagine since they all contain the blood of a Daedra, they all contain godsblood.

You're still thinking of Tamriel as a real place, it isn't. It's a fictional world. If you are truly looking at why people say the things they do, you end up with the developers. They have a story to tell and to tell a story they need people to accept what they're saying unless it benefits the story to provide two contradicting accounts.

Take something such as the Monomyth which makes a point of the common element in the contradicting myths. It's part of the story! Compare it with the events at Red Mountain, the uncertainty about Nerevars murder is an essential part of Vivec character - he needs to be lair.
Yet the origins and nature of ebony and daedric armor are just little facts. They tie the world together a but but beyond that there is nothing. No politics. No religion. There is no benefit to anybody if it were anything else.

So to get back to Martin. He needed Blood of the Daedra and Blood of the Divines. Both resulted in a nice quest that used a bunch of lore. Yet a hand full of dirt and something Daedric would have worked too. So lets examine why Martin didn't tell the player to walk outside and scoop up some dirt and if he could by the way have his Daedric sword.

Hell.

It is kinda obvious that this wouldn't have made for good story. So you can assume that it wasn't that simple.