Mages are ridiculous #2!

Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:40 am

I didn't find being a mage hard, I just found it incredibly boring because I was using the same spells over and over again.

And that's also one of the things i try to tell people... The amount of spells in this game is boringly low and they are also very boring to use!
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kitten maciver
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:43 am

Did I say that? Find me a quite where I said that.

I said MAGES are overpowered. And they basically are.


Bet a pickpocket only thief is crap as well.


But they're not. Conjuration is good. Illusion is good. Destruction is broken. Restoration is underpowered because pot spamming during paused combat is more effective and reliable. Alteration is underpowered because even light armor surpasses the mage armor perk. It becomes alright if you abuse paralysis on every mob.

So yes, mages are OP if you pick a certain 2 out of the 5 combat-oriented magic trees. If you pick the other 3, they are not.

All I'm asking is destruction do something more than laughable damage (at higher levels).
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kasia
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:42 am

Alteration
Main purpose is protective, an alternative to armor for mages. It's not terrible at this, but it's also beaten pretty clearly by it's competitions as all significant penalties for armor are negated later on in the game while alteration spells will still cost a chunk of magicka and won't be on all the time like armor. Through perks, it also offers magical protection - 30% absorption and 30% resist magic is pretty nice. However, there's a large perk investment to reach those, and enchanting and other means of acquiring such seem like superior options. Paralyze is strong but Illusion offers superior crow control options. Overall a pretty bland school and one I'd stay away from personally since pretty much everything it does can be done better. It has one gem of a spell however, an obscure one that luckily doesn't require any investment into the tree. Equilibrium converts health into magicka at a decent rate. This is great for training restoration for obvious reasons, but also simply a nice tool to have as there are plenty of occasions when that magicka is more important than the health it costs.

Strength/Usefulness 4/10
Design/Fun Factor 3/10

Conjuration
Conjuration is essentially a magical alternative or supplement to companions. It serves this purpose very well, with powerful summons and thralls to take the heat of you as well as dish out damage. A certain summon is probably overpowered even, I think any conjurers will know which I'm thinking of. You can go heavily into the tree for improved atronachs or undead and eventually two of them, but even without heavy investment you get some solid options with just the expert level spells. It can also bring you temporary magical weapons which don't really compete with the best smith improved weapons, but still hold their own pretty well and are especially great early game with the perk to improve them. Unfortunately, the bound weapons are limited compared to previous games. Still, easily my favorite school in Skyrim.

Strength/Usefulness 10/10
Design/Fun Factor 9/10

Destruction
It's name makes it's purpose fairly obvious, but unfortunately it fails to deliver for many players. It's damage doesn't scale and it's high level spells cost too much magicka. Some players report a positive experience or at least have been able to make it work for them using various tricks and techniques or other skills to support it, but I'd recommend passing on it unless you're adamant about shocking, burning, and/or freezing stuff which is entirely understandable. Depressing, considering they've done so much with the actual spell mechanics in destruction - placing walls and rune traps in particular I was hopeful about. It does have a secondary purpose however, perhaps not intended to be as powerful as it is, the impact perk is probably the best tool in the game for keeping enemies off the player.

Strength/Usefulness 3/10
Design/Fun Factor 7/10

Illusion
Illusion is mainly about control, but also a stealth supplement quieting your spells, your footsteps, and even making yourself invisible. The control aspect of the tree requires some pretty heavy perk investments, but will end up being very powerful for escape or avoidance, or for making enemies do your work for you by inciting them into violence against each other - which is amusing if possibly overpowered. A good school but demands a lot of perks just to make it's spells reliably function at higher levels, and probably too powerful once you have.

Strength/Usefulness 9/10
Design/Fun Factor 7/10

Restoration
Maybe not the most exciting, but certainly one of the most universally useful. Most if it's best perks are very accessible in the lower part of it's tree/sign, and to do it's main job you don't need a heavy investment into the tree. It's non-healing spells however are pretty lackluster. Wards are a waste of mana, and the undead specific spells are, well, too specific to be worth spending perks to improve. Wards had potential to be an interesting mechanic to use in combat at least, but still a very lacking school. It's a one trick pony currently, though trick just happens to be one of the best. Unfortunately though, it's one trick is undeniably done better via potions, but I'm not sure I can dock restoration any points over this, since alchemy is obviously broken.

Strength/Usefulness 6/10
Design/Fun Factor 3/10


To mirror this very good post.

Alteration is not worth the investment. You need to perk it's tree deeply just to make the magicka cost of the spells worth it and ultimately a late game battlemage in smithed daedric gear with appropriate enchants is still going to be better than you at a cheaper cost.

As so many others have said Conjuration is one of the best if arguably the best school in the game. Solid perk tree a bound weapon that can easily be perked to be your soul binding weapon is(perhaps sadly) going to one of your strongest damage spells effectively for a long time and in terms of magicka cost outshines a great deal of Destruction. Some play styles might avoid using them though. And runes are crap for their damage to cost ratio.

People like to deny it but....Destruction is bad. It doesn't scale, it doesn't curve in advancement well. It's magicka efficiency is bad and required Alchemy/Enchantment investment to compete with the better trees.

I can't say anything more on Illusion that Hermit didn't.


Beyond that Wards are a crap I can't say much more on Resto. It's boring but it does what it needs to. The anti undead stuff is mostly useless but the healing recovers stamina perk and the 50% improvement perks are going to be highly useful to my battlemage once I'm in proper gear.
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Vicky Keeler
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:23 pm

Did I say that? Find me a quote where I said that.

I said MAGES are overpowered. And they basically are.


Bet a pickpocket only thief is crap as well.

Pickpocket isn't something you use for defense or offense, destruction, however is...
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Tai Scott
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:50 am

Maybe I'm fact, but couldn't all the issues brought up in this thread be balanced by just lowering the difficulty?
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An Lor
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:31 pm

Maybe I'm fact, but couldn't all the issues brought up in this thread be balanced by just lowering the difficulty?


Nope. That's like saying high end math can be fixed by giving a kid an easier test. High end math is still difficult for a lot of people, all you changed was giving the kid an easier test.

Ultimately it's not even about "mages are overpowered" as someone said there are no classes in the game. The more precise statement is some Skills in the game are very very strong while others are either overall crap or have useless perk trees,etc.
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Robert Devlin
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:42 am

This is why I get elderscrolls games for PC, there is a very nice mod that makes destruction spells "levelup" with you (nearly all of them have novice/apprentice/expert/master versions)
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1236

But a warning, if you choose to abuse -% spellcost reduction it MAY make your game too easy early on. My advice is don't abuse the system and enjoy it.
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Steve Fallon
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:17 pm

I honestly give up.

Fine, you win, your mages are terribly underpowered. Poor little abused flowers, red headed stepchildren of the devs.

I quit mine for being too easy because I'm high/yoda/lying/realistic.

Delete as bias dictates.


Honestly, you impose artificial restrictions on yourself so tight obviously there are issues. Is destro as good as it could be? Probably not, are mages as a class underpowered? Loooool



Edit: for the avoidance of doubt; I've NEVER said destro was fine, but mages, as a class, are more than ok in terms of raw power
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Stu Clarke
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:49 am

I honestly give up.

Fine, you win, your mages are terribly underpowered. Poor little abused flowers, red headed stepchildren of the devs.

I quit mine for being too easy because I'm high/yoda/lying/realistic.

Delete as bias dictates.


Honestly, you impose artificial restrictions on yourself so tight obviously there are issues. Is destro as good as it could be? Probably not, are mages as a class underpowered? Loooool

And once again i didn't really understand what you said there... but you don't need to explain :P
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Heather beauchamp
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:23 am

I honestly give up.

Fine, you win, your mages are terribly underpowered. Poor little abused flowers, red headed stepchildren of the devs.

I quit mine for being too easy because I'm high/yoda/lying/realistic.

Delete as bias dictates.


Honestly, you impose artificial restrictions on yourself so tight obviously there are issues. Is destro as good as it could be? Probably not, are mages as a class underpowered? Loooool

Like all of the defenders, you apparently cant grasp, or read that its Destruction, not the pure mage. Why is this so hard to understand, when its been repeated ad nauseum in every thread about the matter, since a few days after release?

Anybody that says "mages" is ill informed and can be written off as someone that's not in the know. When Destruction is brought up, it is a viable complaint. Destruction. Not any other school, or a group of schools together. Just Destruction. Ill say it again so it rings clear. Destruction.
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oliver klosoff
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:51 am

Maybe I'm fact, but couldn't all the issues brought up in this thread be balanced by just lowering the difficulty?

There is no issue is you either abuse impact and cost reduction and steamroll through everything or don't and have a useless skill tree comparatively to any other combat skill.
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Add Meeh
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:26 am

Like all of the defenders, you apparently cant grasp, or read that its Destruction, not the pure mage. Why is this so hard to understand, when its been repeated ad nauseum in every thread about the matter, since a few days after release?

Anybody that says "mages" is ill informed and can be written off as someone that's not in the know. When Destruction is brought up, it is a viable complaint. Destruction. Not any other school, or a group of schools together. Just Destruction. Ill say it again so it rings clear. Destruction.

That's what i have been trying to tell him/her... She/he wont listen :P
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Lyndsey Bird
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:50 pm

Hmm... Is this going too far? Should we stop now?
I like having discussions like this.. :P
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Louise Andrew
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:24 pm

If its to hard, change the game difficulty. Its there so you can set it to the appropriate difficulty. Its a singleplayer game, no one ever said the classes were balanced and no one cares if you "1shut evryting on masster lul"
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Lew.p
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:07 pm

If its to hard, change the game difficulty. Its there so you can set it to the appropriate difficulty. Its a singleplayer game, no one ever said the classes were balanced and no one cares if you "1shut evryting on masster lul"

Who are you talking to? There is a ''reply'' button you know :P
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I’m my own
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:03 am

If its to hard, change the game difficulty. Its there so you can set it to the appropriate difficulty. Its a singleplayer game, no one ever said the classes were balanced and no one cares if you "1shut evryting on masster lul"


1. Game difficulty adjustment has absolutely NOTHING to do with relative worth of perks, relative ability to scale weapon damage vs spell damage, or usefulness/uselessness of certain perk trees.

2. There are NO classes in the game.

You're argument is bad.
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Andres Lechuga
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:33 pm

Well, i guess that's the end of it?
It's been a good run boys and girls...
And for [censored]ssake bethesda... fix this!
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Iain Lamb
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:34 pm

Well, i guess that's the end of it?
It's been a good run boys and girls...
And for [censored]ssake bethesda... fix this!


On Destruction damage scaling I'm almost convinced it's "working as intended". Given the in game tools available. I think Bethesda was under the impression that cost reduction and their perception of utility benefits of spells over closer to the enemy melee combat made up for the much weaker damage potential of Destruction. Of course this doesn't explain that Bow's scale the same as melee weapons so either way Destruction is a bit screwed.
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CxvIII
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:03 pm

Well, i guess that's the end of it?
It's been a good run boys and girls...
And for [censored]ssake bethesda... fix this!

Fix what? I see no problem.

The only reason melee characters get so powerful is because they abuse smithing and enchanting. My mage is currently level 38 and I'm running around with zero cost Thunderbolts. Most enemies go down in 3 to 4 bolts, with dragons taking maybe 10 or so casts. I'd say that is comparable to the amount of times my warrior character would have to hit the enemies. If things ever get rough I can call in 2 permanent storm atronachs.

What exactly needs to be fixed?
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Tanika O'Connell
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:46 pm

There actually are classes in the game, just not player made classes. Pretty much every NPC has a class. Every Follower for sure has one, and most enemy types have a class as well.
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Ria dell
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:17 am

Fix what? I see no problem.

The only reason melee characters get so powerful is because they abuse smithing and enchanting. My mage is currently level 38 and I'm running around with zero cost Thunderbolts. Most enemies go down in 3 to 4 bolts, with dragons taking maybe 10 or so casts. I'd say that is comparable to the amount of times my warrior character would have to hit the enemies. If things ever get rough I can call in 2 permanent storm atronachs.

What exactly needs to be fixed?

Read the first thread and this thread... you'll know what's wrong.. I don't want to discuss this anymore.. Destruction is broken, nuff said!
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Olga Xx
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:27 am

A pure Mage is probably more aligned with the "bad" choice. Destruction is weak altogether, and there just aren't many unique spells in the game in its entirety. Re-roll and use a weapon and magic. I play on adept and have no reason to change the difficulty as I do encounter tough battles . However if I had to rely completely only on magic the game would be a joke to me.
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Je suis
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:35 pm

Fix what? I see no problem.

The only reason melee characters get so powerful is because they abuse smithing and enchanting. My mage is currently level 38 and I'm running around with zero cost Thunderbolts. Most enemies go down in 3 to 4 bolts, with dragons taking maybe 10 or so casts. I'd say that is comparable to the amount of times my warrior character would have to hit the enemies. If things ever get rough I can call in 2 permanent storm atronachs.

What exactly needs to be fixed?


No actually you don't need to abuse smithing and enchanting. The only thing you need to do to make melee or bow damage vastly outscale spell damage is USE smithing and enchanting and take appropriate weapon perks that a warrior oriented character is going to have anyway.

Exploiting would be using the fortify restoration glitch which is it's own situation.
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Juliet
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:09 am

No actually you don't need to abuse smithing and enchanting. The only thing you need to do to make melee or bow damage vastly outscale spell damage is USE smithing and enchanting and take appropriate weapon perks that a warrior oriented character is going to have anyway.

Exploiting would be using the fortify restoration glitch which is it's own situation.

I don't even have smithing, or enchanting on my high level one handed build and archer build, and they totally annihilate my Mage build that's technically even more powerful than they are.
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Alan Whiston
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:56 pm

A pure Mage is probably more aligned with the "bad" choice. Destruction is weak altogether, and there just aren't many unique spells in the game in its entirety. Re-roll and use a weapon and magic. I play on adept and have no reason to change the difficulty as I do encounter tough battles . However if I had to rely completely only on magic the game would be a joke to me.


I'm enjoying my battlemage so far. High Elf, currently level 16 using Novice Robes of Destruction, VIle's Masque and the rest of the gear is the Brotherhood cloth gear. Not set up yet for appropriately enchanted heavy armor but I'm moving there. The only thing disappointing to me so far is really how much better a bound weapon and conjuration in general is so much better for damage than Destruction is and how relatively worthless Alteration is. I use some resto but it's more supplemental for a battlemage and I'm not using Illusion currently. Though in this case that is just a play style thing.

I don't even have smithing, or enchanting on my high level one handed build and archer build, and they totally annihilate my Mage build that's technically even more powerful than they are.


And that would be because as so many people have pointed out, myself included. The in game tools for scaling weapon damage in the game outnumber and outperform spell damage scaling and you can do it even without going much at all into enchanting or smithing.
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Marcin Tomkow
 
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