I don't think they're necessarily bad; they just aren't as good from a numbers standpoint because of crafting as other "classes" and they have questionable mechanics that lead to problems at mid-high levels.

Mages don't even benefit from their own crafting skill (enchanting) as well as other classes do! The only way to increase mage damage is to use the thief crafting skill (alchemy), and that's only for 30-60 seconds at a time, which is completely absurd. The only way to improve your character with enchanting is by reducing costs, and by making your character "godly" in a specific skill, you're basically negating all the magicka upgrades you've spent by leveling up. So, you're magicka starved nearly constantly because regen is so bad that you need to level it up, but once you get enchanting to the level you need to, you don't need magicka anymore! I don't think Bethesda's idea that reducing magicka costs as your skill levels up and as enchanting effects is a good one, all they do is remove magicka from being something the player has to worry about while their spells hit for peanuts. Meanwhile, archers and warriors can use your skill to add +40% damage increases on items ON TOP OF smithing all their weapons and armor to legendary status.

Reducing costs also has the effect of making mages into 1 spell machines; since you can spam Incinerate continuously, why do anything else? All your other spells; concentration spells like flames, runes, aoe spells, cloak, they all become silly to cast since there's never a good reason to use them anymore. However, having the damage scale rather than the magicka cost with skill and enchantments allow spells to retain their utility, since expert nukes would cost a prohibitive amount of magicka, but would hit for a truckload. Juggling spells for mana management would still be meaningful, your damage would go up as your skill in destruction and enchanting were improved, and you could kill things without having to spam the same spell forever like you have to do now.

I have a 50 mage, and level 36 sneaky archer with 1 handed, and the difference in power in favor of the archer is laughable. So, that's why they're "bad." They can be fun to play until you get to the high levels of mage skills, because that's when different aspects of the class start working against themselves, and your spells hit a ceiling.

I do love using mages in TES series, but I have to agree that they more so failed here in exploring all of the possibilities that could have made this class unbelievably awesome. At level 30, I've invested so much in destruction, that I'm thinking now that a spellsword would be a much more fulfilling experience.

Now that I think about it, that might be exactly what I do tonight...So many hours gone from my life...big fail, Bethesda :shakehead:

Not being able to make staffs, which was probably one of the most sought after changes, and certainly the most requested is just plain dumb. Stupid is as stupid does. And not being able to make spells? What the hell were they thinking?

... the spells don't level with you, so your fire(the first ones) spells is worthless at higher levels...

i haven't tried it yet because I'm not that far yet but i wonder if you can use "become ethereal" to storm a room and cast the master level spells, since all your doing is summoning the spell and not casting it really isn't an action that would break the shout. but if it doesn't kill the enemy then your screwed.

My experience of mages so far (I'm still low level) is that the casting itself is fun and it's fairly well balanced but the cheer number of spells is WAY to limited. What if I prefer a spray spell over the fireball at higher levels? Looking back at what was avaliable in oblivion makes me better with nostalgia!

I can sort of understand most changes made in this series, but I'll never get why they removed spellcrafting. It makes no sense at all!

You can't do anything while invincible...

..are they supposed to?
Novice spells are labeled novice for a reason...they're weak spells that shouldn't be used when you reach apprentice level.
Apprentices should use Apprentice leveled spells - Adepts should be using Adept spells - etc. ~ What a novel concept to stick to your characters skill level!
I can honestly say i never once cared that my weak novice spells weren't leveling up w/ me just as i don't mind that i can't use master level spells while i'm still playing an apprentice.

I wish the "spray" spells from the start of the game could be used effectively at later levels. Is this something that could be modded? The feeling of a jet of flames coming out of your hand is great, but I had to stop using it due to it's low damage after a few levels.

http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=721

Sad thing is that they took too much away from pure mages, and whats really stupid is that we wouldnt be having this conversation if they would have just left spell making in the game.

Doh.... What a stupid idea lets get rid of spell making, but then put smithing in the game.... rofl....

Some good news though that once the CK comes out, we will be able to add tons of stuff that they took out back into the game.

For example:
1. Through modding I was able to add effects like Light, oak skin, wards, summons etc.. to the clothes that I was wearing.
2. Quite a bit of the spells that they took away can be found and accessed through the Creation Kit. Examples include Water Walking, Shield spells, Night Eye, Open, Elemental Shield Spells, absorb and drain spells etc.. The only ones that i see missing are Reflection and Chameleon.

I think mages are bad in Skyrim, but better than they were in Oblivion. I like things like dual casting but because the spells don't level with you it gets really bad fast. It svcks even more when you have to go and purchase really expensive new spells from the mage's college knowing full well in a few levels they'll be useless again. After getting to level 15 with my Breton mage I gave up and went back to playing my level 48 Orc warrior.

I'm beginning to think that I just dislike the way magic is done in Elder Scrolls games. Fortunately, the rest of the game is so good that I don't mind all that much.

can you make staffs in this game?

Alteration
Main purpose is protective, an alternative to armor for mages. It's not terrible at this, but it's also beaten pretty clearly by it's competitions as all significant penalties for armor are negated later on in the game while alteration spells will still cost a chunk of magicka and won't be on all the time like armor. Through perks, it also offers magical protection - 30% absorption and 30% resist magic is pretty nice. However, there's a large perk investment to reach those, and enchanting and other means of acquiring such seem like superior options. Paralyze is strong but Illusion offers superior crow control options. Overall a pretty bland school and one I'd stay away from personally since pretty much everything it does can be done better. It has one gem of a spell however, an obscure one that luckily doesn't require any investment into the tree. Equilibrium converts health into magicka at a decent rate. This is great for training restoration for obvious reasons, but also simply a nice tool to have as there are plenty of occasions when that magicka is more important than the health it costs.

Strength/Usefulness 4/10
Design/Fun Factor 3/10

Conjuration
Conjuration is essentially a magical alternative or supplement to companions. It serves this purpose very well, with powerful summons and thralls to take the heat of you as well as dish out damage. A certain summon is probably overpowered even, I think any conjurers will know which I'm thinking of. You can go heavily into the tree for improved atronachs or undead and eventually two of them, but even without heavy investment you get some solid options with just the expert level spells. It can also bring you temporary magical weapons which don't really compete with the best smith improved weapons, but still hold their own pretty well and are especially great early game with the perk to improve them. Unfortunately, the bound weapons are limited compared to previous games. Still, easily my favorite school in Skyrim.

Strength/Usefulness 10/10
Design/Fun Factor 9/10

Destruction
It's name makes it's purpose fairly obvious, but unfortunately it fails to deliver for many players. It's damage doesn't scale and it's high level spells cost too much magicka. Some players report a positive experience or at least have been able to make it work for them using various tricks and techniques or other skills to support it, but I'd recommend passing on it unless you're adamant about shocking, burning, and/or freezing stuff which is entirely understandable. Depressing, considering they've done so much with the actual spell mechanics in destruction - placing walls and rune traps in particular I was hopeful about. It does have a secondary purpose however, perhaps not intended to be as powerful as it is, the impact perk is probably the best tool in the game for keeping enemies off the player.

Strength/Usefulness 3/10
Design/Fun Factor 7/10

Illusion
Illusion is mainly about control, but also a stealth supplement quieting your spells, your footsteps, and even making yourself invisible. The control aspect of the tree requires some pretty heavy perk investments, but will end up being very powerful for escape or avoidance, or for making enemies do your work for you by inciting them into violence against each other - which is amusing if possibly overpowered. A good school but demands a lot of perks just to make it's spells reliably function at higher levels, and probably too powerful once you have.

Strength/Usefulness 9/10
Design/Fun Factor 7/10

Restoration
Maybe not the most exciting, but certainly one of the most universally useful. Most if it's best perks are very accessible in the lower part of it's tree/sign, and to do it's main job you don't need a heavy investment into the tree. It's non-healing spells however are pretty lackluster. Wards are a waste of mana, and the undead specific spells are, well, too specific to be worth spending perks to improve. Wards had potential to be an interesting mechanic to use in combat at least, but still a very lacking school. It's a one trick pony currently, though trick just happens to be one of the best. Unfortunately though, it's one trick is undeniably done better via potions, but I'm not sure I can dock restoration any points over this, since alchemy is obviously broken.

Strength/Usefulness 6/10
Design/Fun Factor 3/10

62 mage. Starting to get tired of my pea shooter abilities...er, incinerate thunderbolt and ice spear. No wait I had it right the first time. :confused:

56 mage, absolutely no problems

Overpowered like not much else if made correctly.