Evil shouldn't usually be used too often when describing the Elder Scrolls universe, but there are some events that definitely call for it when it involves the Mages Guild. While I wouldn't consider the guild itself to be evil, I will point out that if anything it really shows the faults of those in charge and the consequences it has on others. Some of the Guild Hall leaders can easily be seen for what they are; using connections and their position to try and get further up or just be comfortable. Others might have a grudge against something another guild member has done or is being treated unfairly from their point-of-view (Kalthar for example stealing Dagail's seer stone because she didn't seem fit for her position to him). Experimenting on people and creatures, trying to hold a monopoly on magic, forcing out or even killing people for not obliging to their ideals, these are undoubtedly some... well, dike moves on their part. I believe even Galerion mentioned that he was sickened by how the guild turned out (for those that don't remember or didn't know, Galerion started up the Mages Guild after leaving his Psijic(sp?) Order that withheld the secrets of magic from the public themselves). All this doesn't make the guild evil as not every member would agree with these actions, but it's easy to see where things are going wrong and how nothing is really being done about it, which leaves a bad impression (heck, I didn't even want to join the guild or any other but I have no choice since they keep locked away the spell-creating altar. And there I go just using them for my own personal interests, how dirty I feel...).

Yeah, necromancers get a lot of crap that was probably taken to the extreme, but they aren't exactly "gray". http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Falcar was sending new members that wanted recommendations on suicide missions for being upset. Necromancers do use black soul gems, though I admit this is a weak argument since many others use soul gems on like everything else. Burning down a guild hall was pretty brutal. And just recently since I got back into Oblivion yet again, I really started taking a good look around and noticed that a corpse, not a zombie, was upside-down on a rope hands tied behind back with a lot of pieces ripped off in a necromancer's cave. Since necromancers aren't that accepted into the public anymore I'm pretty sure they're getting their bodies from innocents now rather than being able to use prisoners and traitors like before. Even then, experimenting inhumanely on people is pretty dark stuff, regardless of what they've done.

Dunno why I felt like adding my two cents, but the point I want to make is that I wouldn't go so far as to label the Mages Guild evil, but I will agree that they have problems or moral issues that they aren't realizing, or maybe they do and don't care which would be worse. There are members that join the guild for a good cause or believe they're doing something good for all (Arch-Mage Traven banning necromancy for example, and since I haven't delved deeply into this matter I won't say whether I agree or not), and there are those who are bitter, selfish, greedy, power-hungry, and/or even "evil". And necromancers aren't all sunshine and rainbows either.

And they shouldn't be. They're necromancers. They have a rep to keep. :chaos:

No. The Telvanni are the evil ones. They just study to expand there own powers. THe mages guild does it to help humanity as a whole

The Mages Guild regulates, limits and monopolizes access to arcane items and services in order to empower the spellcasting elite of the continent. They wouldn't want humanity as a whole having unfettered access to magic.

The Mages' Guild's job is to maintain a governmental monopoly on magic. Their methods are quite extreme at times, but think about it: magic is dangerous. Tamriel is a land where any schmoe off the street can, with a bit of study, summon a dread zombie or launch a huge fireball at a pack of neighbors he doesn't like. The Mages' Guild may not be too nice to other mages, but they are trying to keep magic away from those too irresponsible to use it. So I think they're a necessary evil.

And my mages always join them anyway, because other than the Telvanni in Morrowind, they got all the best trainers.

In any case, whenever you've got a large group of spellslingers working together, some at least morally ambiguous stuff is gonna' happen. These are people dedicated to learning secret arts with which to bend reality to their liking and becoming more powerful--of course some of them will be evil at heart. Best they be kept under a strict Guild code.

Studying the lost Dwemer lore falls well within the Guild's priority of "advancing and preserving magical knowledge." And as for the Vvardenfell archmage: I got the impression he was assigned to a backwater post so that his idiocy wouldn't cause trouble. That's not uncommon in any corporate structure.

They're not really evil, they're probably trying to keep things under control, and perhaps gain a little power.

I don't think the Telvanni are really evil, they just have different ideas, they just want to keep their secrets to themselves.
You're not just going to give away all your hard earned knowledge are you?

Actually, I object to this. Isn't eating a corpse a sign of respect to the departed? So necromancing them would be considered disrespectful in some cases. Traffiking with dead spirits perhaps not, but reanimating a body, thus preventing a loved one to be digested by his or her family, would be disrespectful and probably punishable.

If a close kin died, yeah. If it was someone they killed (war, hunting, etc), it'd be a lost meal, or a meal to go.

Why don't people just do cremation? No skeletons, no zombies.

The citizens of High Rock mandate it so that dead bodies are cremated, and dunmer also seem to cremate their dead too (unless they need to turn them into bonewalkers). Though, it seems like the southern High Rockians are kind of lazy when it comes to that. It was mentioned in my favorite book.

The Mauri warriors would disagree with you as they believe that the ultimate insult is turning someone into human excrement... but on topic the Mages guild is a lot like America in the 1920's, those who have good connections, have everything and those who don't, have nothing, and those who have do everything to keep it that way.

Well the Maoris didn't actually need the meat, right?

Nay but neither do the relatives of a deceased man (Unless they are bosmer)

In places like New Guinea cannibalism was badly-needed protein.

There is no "Good" guild in Tamriel. The guilds run strictly off of money, regulation, and personal gain; not precisely in that order, mind you. Even the Blades, who are dedicated servents of the Emperor, are not completely good. But, just as there are guilds who are predominantly "Good" but exhibiting "Evil" tendencies, the guilds that are predominantly "Evil" generally exhibit neutral ideologies. The Morag Tong operate through government sanctioned killing; murdering for business purposes only. Does that make them evil, or does it make the government and client evil? The same goes for the Dark Brotherhood. Even Dagoth Ur could be linked away from evil, as his intentions were to free his people, the dunmer, and destroy the tribunal and the empire. The Mythic Dawn could also be linked away from evil, as they acted only through ignorance and promises of immortality.

They're neither good nor evil, they do what they do because they can.
And because it suits their purposes.

In another Break maybe the Necromancers might be the one with the large force.

@Dogsbody: I meant "problems" not as is they don't care about Necromancy, but that they would not have hordes of zombies and skeletons infesting caves and old ruins (such as in TESIV's Cyrodiil).

Anypone else predict massive powergoing to the guild in future months and years? Think of it, with no central authority, the legions will get weaker, lawlessness wil be even worse outside city walls, and mages guild teleportation may wind up being the only safe and reliable form of transport. That would mean if you travel or trade, it goes through the guild for any price they name.

Nah. The Mages Guild benefits from central authority. They want the same elites to be in power tomorrow. It's not exactly good business for an an organization to be in circumstances where it has to defend itself and enforce laws on its own.

Paw-Prints has it right. The end of the Empire is the end of the Guild's Imperial sanction. With the Empire present, the Guild can always count on the Empire to get involved if something too big for them to handle shows up; the Guild has an implicit guarantee that it doesn't matter WHO they piss off: retaliating against the Guild is the same thing as retaliating against the Empire, a very bad idea. Without the empire backing them, now if they piss off the wrong people, those people are more likely to do something about it. If they continue as they always have, they're likely to be attacked and reduced from their position. If they humanize their practices somewhat (avoiding the grosser injustices), the benefits of the service network and scholarly fellowship could be sufficient that a significant plurality, if not a majority, of mages continue on in the Guild. Remember: The Guild did manage to exist for a while before they became officially sanctioned under... was it the Akaviri Potentate?

back on topic about the evil deal i think grunge has the best answer.

Apparently, they were charted by the king of firsthold, and eventually spread to the mainland. It seems like a gradual process, rather than an official potentate decree as was with the Fighters' Guild.

Yeah. Mages Guild started in Summerset Ilse, then expanded into the mainland after much success in Summerset. It was pretty much the first "free" magic organization, as long as you can pay your way into school. Others, like the Telvanni and Psijics don't really take in members and are pretty exclusive.

More like a wanning, ivy league school adhering to a ciriculunm of steel (and a knight order to enforce it), which is in the process of cost cutting. In a couple years, many spells are reallocated to beter staffed schools or dropped all together.

Actually, it still is..