It's difficult to give a moral interpretation of the Mage's Guild as a whole, what with it being a massive, ancient institution crossing the borders of several countries and spanning quite a wide frame of time. It's a big group intended to avoid the mistakes of the PSJJJCs or the early Feyfolken example -- both to be common-place enough that most individuals would be aware of and unafraid of magic like during the Alessian Doctrines of Marukh, and to avoid letting dangerous power get in the hands of the untrusted or unaware. As a result, it is statist, paternalistic, intervention-biased, entrenched, conservative (in the cautious-of-change definition), paranoid, and a cesspit of political infighting, publicity-hunting, and favor-trading.

That doesn't make them bad. It's hard to call Deetsan or Kud-ei bad people, even when they don't follow the rules to the letter, and the worst you could say about Adrienne Berene or Agata was carelessness, seldom a mortal sin. Some, like S'Drassa, look wasteful (skooma and an obsession with crystals) until you hear the full story (trying to find a cure for addiction, and the crystals are said to have healing powers). Wasteful comes to mind, but we're talking a group that's had no reason not to waste time for centuries.

And there are plainly evil individuals. Deetsan's former guild leader is the most obvious of this, but he's not alone even in Oblivion, nevermind Morrowind or Daggerfall. Does a single murderer corrupt the souls of a thousand other men or mer? While Jeanne Frasoric is no doubt a literal example of Peter's Law, she's also trying to be better, and her political and social connections could well be worth the figurehead. Does her lack of skill weigh on the abilities and minds of a dozen others? They kill the dangerous and those that could be dangerous, but at some point the question arises as to how far pacifism must be pushed.


At least in the Elder Scrolls universe, corpses given last rights can not, by the nature of Arkay, be used in necromantic rituals. It's a mutable law -- Arkay's Blessing is supposed to keep you from soul-trapping people, but Mannimarco wrote a loophole into it -- but it's a fairly effective one. Individuals who want to prevent from becoming undead can do so, if they die someplace that they'll get Arkay's ritual after death. See http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml for a reasonably educated source. Cannibalism, cremation, or significantly accelerated rot can all make corpses non-viable for Necromancy, as well, although significant effort must go into it, as the ashpits of Morrowind are not enough. The world of Nirn is a dangerous place, so this is a reasonable and major concern.

But a lot of people aren't subjected to those rights, either because they died without a nearby religious available, or due to the interaction of the Necromancer himself or herself, or because they did not ask for such. The second attribute is of significant concern, as the most valuable necromantic rituals (especially related to lichdom and life extension) involve quite a few corpses. The aforementioned loophole regarding Arkay's Blessing is of greater concern, as it provides a way to trap the souls of the living and only operates through murder or death.

That's not to say that a "good" necromancer is impossible within the setting's definition, per say, although we see few or no such beings in Oblivion (and it may be a practical near-impossibility due to the definition of Necromancy used by the Mage's Guild, which defines Necromancy as only mentally damaging and unsafe spells). But it makes concern about them problematic,

as stated, the mages guild is truly the effective government of mages. The empire is not a Magocracy, therefore it really has no authirty over those who for all intents and purposes could with the flick of a wrist cause their armies to burst into flames, hence why Vanus Galerion started the mages guild and why the empire endorsed and welcomed it.

Galerion started the guild to offer the teachings and services to everyone who could afford it. That's not evil its very wise. In turn for allowing his guild to be apart of the empire the empire gained the use of its services and an ally of powerful magick users. But when you have such a wide scope of duties and such a vast number of people within those duties, corruption and stupidity can slip in between the cracks.

and Hannibal is't the one who started the stuff against necromancers, that was Vanus Galerion and the Psjic Order. They vanished Mannimarco from their ranks and he in turn not only became the first lich but created an army of necromancers and led them against the Psjic Order. Vanus died in that battle and seeing such a terrible threat and having it take their leader the Mages Guild reacted logically and declared open war on any and all necromancers.

It is that response which has saddly allowed some such as the Head Mage in Balmora to manipulate and use such circumstances for personal and corrupt ends.

The Guild is not Evil, Some of those within it however are. The only reason the Mages Guild has the monopoly is because they have managed to keep the destruction of the empire to a minimum when it comes to Foolish and overly Arrogant magick users who think because they have an affinity for magicka that they can do anything they please.

so to sum up why the guild has such extreme rules I'll give you a quote. "Let them hate so long as they fear." Nobody wants the Guild coming after them because they have seen how that works out for everyone else who's had it happen even the king of worms albeit he was extrodinarily weak in Oblivion and that was horrid. Nobody acts up and that's how the empire likes it.

The Mages Guild are suspicious and can go over the top sometimes with their methods of dealing with things... But i don't think that they are "evil", just mis-read...

I think the trouble will lie in the Psjiics... Don't ask me why but i get the feeling something bad might happen the Psjiics will be behind it... Why all the secrecy anyways ??

An order that old with that much power has very old and very powerful enemies, the secrecy and the moving Island is to protect them. Besides they know full well they have powerful things in their possession and I have my suspicions that they have a few things on their island that in the wrong hands could cause another dragon break, and no one wants that. Theoretically if another dragon broke were to happen, some very nasty people could end up in a time where they could alter events that have already taken place I.E the eternal champion could be murdered in his sleep HoD never finds the totem and it ends up in the hands of someone less savory, Dagoth Ur manages to become a God and takes over Nirn. Martin gets offed by an assassin who knows where to find him at the same time as his family.

believe it or not Magick users actually do have their reasons for why they are as they are.

My full explaination i think is that ive always been a bit funny with the Altmer... Especially Summerset Altmer... And i get the feeling that Ocato isn't all hes cracked up to be... I mean were was he during the events of the Oblivion crisis... He only popped up when things started looking good for Cyrodiil... Theres something fishy about that High Elf and i bet my bottom dollar its something to do with the Psjiics.. The secrecy, the privacy, the all powerful archives, the floating islands and probably countless unmarked islands that belong to them... <_<

You realize you sound racist against altmer yes?

Im not racist to Altmer... Its just i get the feeling that the Psjiics are up to something and Ocato may be involved... I do have suspicions about Altmer in Summset aswell, but those are just because the Psjiic are so close to them... And plus, they remind me of the Aylieds, which aint a good sign...

Ocato has only ties to the Mages Guild and The Psjiic Order frowns upon the mages guild even tho it is a product of their favored son Vanus Galerion.

and in truth of the Psjic order bore ill will towards the empire or had malicious intentions toward it, they could easily sweep aside the mages guild and cast the empire in it's current state into a burning ruin and create their own empire from the ashes. Yet they have chosen not to, simply because it would be far too much for them to deal with and they would become bloated and over extended as the mages guild that and they prefer seclusion with their magic over being well known, and as such they are misunderstood for schemers rather than thinkers.

Ocato has ties almost everywhere... He pally with the Blades, the Mages, the Fighters... Whos to say that he isn't an agent for the Psjiic... Jagar Tharne invaded the Imperial Court and fooled everyone into thinking he was only there for the good of the Emperor and look were that got us...

And the Psjiic are also Mystics... If they were ever planning to unleash their ultimate power then they would have picked a perfect time to use it... And i reckon it will be soon. The Empire is in ruins... There is no heir... An Altmer Battlemage is taking the throne and that Altmer was once in the same position as Jagar Tharne...

And who knows, if someone like Jagar Tharne could trick people so easily, who's to say that Ocato didn't trick Mankar Cameron and Mehrunes Dagon... Whos to say that those assassins that killed the Emperors sons weren't hired by Ocato... He has that look about him as if hes wanted the throne all along...

And like a very slick vampire once told me, Altmer are a very close knit race...

Only time will tell of the Psjiic Order and their plans if they have any. Mehrunes Dagon is not so easily tricked, not even by an order of mystics. Though I doubt their plans involve hostile imperial take overs. Nor do I think they involve dealing with a Daedric Prince such as Mehrunes Dagon. If their plans are to take over the Empire, they would not strike whilst it is at it's weakest. They would strike when it is strongest and destroy all opposition with an even handed force, that way there is no question about what they are capable of, they are Altmer, and the Altmer are a proud race. They would raher prove the greatest force at it's strongest was no match for them rather than seize control through manipulation and backroom dealings. They are not sneak-thieves, they are Sorcerers.

CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But their not just mystics, they are the most powerful magical force so far recorded on Nirn... Whos to say they don't have the God like power or the ability to control millions through magic... They are the most powerful and most mysterious of all magical groups... And Daedric Princes have been tricked before in history, whos to say Mehrunes Dagon wasn't... And perhaps it might not have been trickery, it could have been more of exchange and dealing... In return for taking over the planet, well give you a shiny stone, etc etc...

And the Altmer may be a proud race, but the Psjiics are strategists, planning things one by one and eventually it will complete... Like dominoes... And all i can see is series of events which might have been the work of and evil mastermind group which lays in the shadows...

Well you don't see the Illuminati or the Shady Forum Cult conquering the world either.


...they already own it but you'll never be able to prove it.

Exactly, what if the series of events; the death of the Septims and their royal line, a simple Altmer battlemage quickly rising to the ranks of head of Council and trusted leader of Uriel Septim, etc etc... What if these events were all foreseen and performed by the Psjiics and now they do technically own the world... Ocato is running the Empire and i have my thoughts that he is working for the Psjiics, and if not then he will be easily manipulated into joining them... All they need is to have it in writing...

Your right, and your wrong. You've proven the point.

They could with ease take over everything, they could do whatever they want. Nothing is out of reach for them. They know it, everyone knows it and nobody says it. Why? because they already could take everything over. They could have when the royal line was at it's strongest. They don't need Mehrunes Dagon or any of the Daedra or even the Aedra to help them with that. Why do something so simple when in the long run you would lose mny of the freedoms you enjoy now? It would be too easy, too boring, too mundane for beings of such power. They have no plans for taking things over because in reality they need no plan and they have matters far more important and interesting than ruling a world.

Understanding what happened to the dwemer, wondering if they can reverse it, if it's a good thing can they replicate it for themselves? Can we reach Aetherius? Can we fathom everything? What happened to vivec?

or even simple matters, lets take clockwork city and fix it up. Can we create new forms of magic? Are there any forms we have yet to learn?

the lives of the most powerful mortal beings in existance are not so easily entertained by notions of political or military superiority. They would much rather find new secrets of magic and horde them on their moving island than share them with the world that includes using them to take it over because someone not in the order may see it and wish to replicate it or improve it or even come up with something from it we didn't foresee and that can't be allowed.

Conspiracy theories and hostile takeovers are truly the most unimportant things to beings of such magnitude.

Hey, I only just realized this...

Yes, but if you don't remember, the only other powerful figure in anything Arcane would have to be the power of Royalty... I mean no amount of magical power can forge an amulet that creates barriers between worlds... And whos to say that there isn't more infinite power artifacts like (or better) than this???

This kind of power can only be gained through conquering the White Gold Tower (most likely) and to do that they would need the support of the rest of the Empire, which to be honest at this moment in time wouldn't be hard to gain...

And as for "hostile takeovers", i doubt that mystics, even though they are incredibly powerful ones, would take over the world using physical force... If the Psjiics were to take over the world, then they would have done it the traditional Seer way... Foreseeing the future, and altering it through specific events which would eventually lead to the Empire falling into their hands... Sure, taking over Tamriel now would be an easy act to do, but what if this act has been going on since say the events in Arena? Each game has been a difficult event which has been ruined thanks to the efforts of the player... But after the events of Oblivion, the future seems uncertain and not very good...

Could this maybe be the Psjiics have cornered our king and removed our pawns??? Its all im saying...

The amulet of kings was created by Akatosh if I'm not mistaken, not a powerful sorcerer.

And also if I'm not mistaken, seeing the future and prophecy is highly unreliable without the Elder Scrolls which are in the possession of the Empire under lock and key by the Moth Priests. The fact you can steal one of them does show that with the proper help it can be done but it also shows that the elder scrolls are accounted for which means the Psjiic order has not acquired them.

The Amulet of Kings (its gem at least) existed before Akatosh gave it to Alessia because the Ayleids used it in connection with White Gold Tower. It is natural to assume that they crafted it as well, though there is no proof.

I was using the amulet as an example to show what kind of power the Royal Line had... With this in mind, who knows what other artifacts they have hidden in White Gold Tower???

And I didn't say they had the Elder Scrolls, but what you are saying is exactly my point... The Psjiics are mystics and seers... Believing in prophecy and reading the future.. But without the Elder Scrolls this future that Psjiics foresee is not definitive... Another reason why the Psjiics would want control of White Gold Tower, for the Elder Scrolls...

But they have no reason to worry, They are a thousand fold what the imperial mages guild is and No one dares challenge the mages guild besides the necromancers, and the necromancers have yet to even attempt to chalenge the Psjiic Order, even mannimarco hasn't attempted that because he is uncertain of the outcome. They have no need to worry about prophecy since it has yet to even come close to touching them. They weren't even involved in the bid for power in trying to attain the totem of tiber septim. They above all others could easily have used the totem to control the numidium and they above all others needed no Hero of Daggerfall to find and retrieve it.

they are no threat to the empire, if anything they would be it's greatest ally.

There's nothing wrong with the head of Ald-rhun's guild. She's just doing what a typical research scholar does except for maybe the book borrowing part. Considering the relevance of Dwemer technology to science, her research project is most likely sanctioned by the guild.

nah, the Mages Guild isn't bad at all, simply the Dunmer Balmora guildmistress has got a chip on her neck....

Whatever the case, Pelinal Whitestrake wore armor bearing the image of the Amulet before the Nedes took White Gold Tower.

Actually, while such curiosity would be typical, I seem to recall a fellow guildmember (don't recall who, maybe I'll look for it next time I play) expressing concern for what might happen if she got caught.