I said this in another thread at some point but I'll say it again.

Why do people care about being over/underpowered in a single-player game like Skyrim... this isn't World of Warcraft... if you feel that you are too strong, and nothing is challenging anymore, then set the difficulty to 100 or (if you're on a computer) download mods that make the game more challenging. Problem solved.

At the risk of more wacky tabbacky accussations, perfectly stated.

There are too many people in these forums who seem determined to force their playing prefferences onto everyone else. TES gives you options. Not every option everyone might desire (I'd like a two player local co-op, and the ability to become a Dremora or a male Aureal (Golden Saint) for example, but what the hell can you do?), but still as wide a variety of options as they can easily manage. If you want to play as a mage of minor powers, or a pure thief or warrior, or an average kinda guy/gal, it can be done. If you want to play as the next coming of a demi-god, also an option. And that is how it should be.

Meticulously balancing a game is pointless in a single player game. Obviously the game needs to be balanced to some degree, but this isn't an RTS or an FPS. And whats more it isn't multi-player either. Balance isn't all that necessary.

Certain spells just need a higher magicka cost.

Of course, spells constantly used shouldn't cost too much, such as attacking or protection spells, but the occasional spell that makes the game a tad easy, such as Chameleon, Levitate, Open, etc, should have higher costs.

This. I can't believe it when I hear people say, "I can't play a thief, mages are too good"
(not insinuating the OP is saying that, just some people do)

Why be a thief when mages are superior? Because its more fun. I love being a mage, but sneaking as a thief or assassin is way more entertaining that invisibility.


If people have a hard time playing a particular class, then they are probably ment to be another. I can't play a warrior. I always fall into either stealth or magic on accident. Thats not the fault of the mechanics, but my playstyle.

But that is balancing to the point of defying logic. If magic allows one to become invisible or can open a lock, why wouldn't it work better than a steel pick being jangled around in a keyhole? If you can call down a ten thousand volt lightning bolt, or create an explosion strong enough to level a building, why should that be less effective at killing a man than a sword through the chest?

All some of you are basically saying is make mages weaker so other player types don't have anything to be envious over. Should warriors not be able to become tremendously strong or have health like bull elephants? Should thieves not be able to be stealthy enough to sneak right up on a man without being detected?

Higher level magic IS A FORM OF SKILL! It is skill at sorcery. The mage who is learned enough in illusion has put the same type of effort that an extremely stealthy thief has put into moving swift and silent as a cat.

Ok so let me get this staight... You don't want mages to be good at combat because thats what warriors do, you dont want them to be good at stealth because thats what rouges do, and you don't want them to be good at persuasion because thats what... :huh: other people do? Well then what do you want mages to do, restoration?

Whats overpowerd? compared to what? you are the only one who is playing this game its not an mmo. It adds logic and realism when some sorts of skills are better than others.

Its like - if ill learn very hard math in life i may become something good. If ill learn hard about fantasy games ill have a less effective skil for life. doesnt matter to me, i wanna know about fantasy games more!

same about magic and melee.

EDIT: having a fighter who can kill dragons only with his blade is too much high fantasy for me. magic on the other hand seems legit, because it just makes sense that magic is better. Magic can scale to any form of power because it is MAGIC. I do not dam care that my fightyer will be weaker, really. So my fighter will have to level 5 more times before he can beatwhat my mage can. Why should i care? at any form - it just adds variety and awesomeness to game. I can pretend my fighter is using melee because he loves to be fighting melee. and not just think -"oh all my characters are wanting to be powerful as they can get!" like in other games. Thats kinda lame and immersion breaking.

Alot of these "I hate how powerful mages are" threads seem essentially to be a sort of comparison gaming. Keeping up with The Joneses brought to an RPG.

People seem content to play their character in the way that they prefer, and then at some point they realize that there are features in the game that will allow others who play in a different style to *gasp* do things that their character cannot do! Or potentially become more powerful than their character if they do not expand their playstyle to match that of every other potential gamer in the world!!

I understand it, but I certainly don't approve, and I cannot see why anyone would perseverate and obsess over it. The ONLY place where it even matters that different playstyles can yield certain advantages is in a Player versus player style multiplayer game. Even in a standard co-op game with cooperative play, it wouldn't really matter, because players could compliment one another's deficiencies like in the RPG board game parties of olde. In a single player game, where no matter what playstyle you use you have the potential to be the deadliest and most capable person in the game world, such worries about what other gamers MIGHT do or be able to do with their characters is simply ridiculous.

I play predominantly as a wizard with some skill with a sword. I have HEARD that if you get stealth and marksman high enough (my stealth is pretty good actually, but I have little invested in marksman) that you can go around one shot killing things from the shadows at a stupendous rate, especially if you use the right poisions. . . . this knowledge has never once led me to go and turn my warlock into an imitation of Legolas from The Lord of The Rings. . . Why? Because I LIKE playing as a wizard and have no interest in being a marksman, even if that profession comes with certain enviable perks.

That said, if I DID desire that ability, the game allows me to have it and still be a mage. And if I CHOOSE to do that, I am not about to turn around and complain about how I am not provided with enough limitations, which is another bizzare complaint one sometimes hears in this thread. People act like invisibility and high level charm spells are forced on the player out of the gate and have to be strenously resisted. They are not like a Dark Elves low level fireball spell. They don't come equipped to your hotkey. At the very least you have to search out a mage who offers them. Typically, you not only have to locate such a mage, you have to spend a great deal of time leveling up in the skills required to use the spell in the first place, and for some of the super spells (like charms effective enough to enthrall a Dremora) you have to gain access to spell alters, which often requires some doing, AND you have to master the school the spell is in, in order to be able to cast it.

For anyone who thinks magic overpowered, not using it, or at the very least, not using certain spells, is ALWAYS a viable option. And for those who don't even want to play as mages, but who simply cannot stand the idea of other players having abilities that they themselves do not. . . . focus on YOUR game, play your character according to YOUR interests, and stop trying to play dictator in chief with everyone else's gaming experience.

I like the scroll idea, especially for paralyze.

I played it quite easily and had fun doing it. especially when you create your own drain health spell causing 100 damage every 6 seconds or more and being able to cast it plenty of times before expending your magicka. Nearly everything dies on the first hit (somethings are immune).

This is exactly what i was talking about, i don,t care becose 1000 for 6 sec spells drained your magica instantly so it was fine like that.
But using invicibility (did i spell it right?) you could run away from battles, sneak in and kill opponents without being seen and even steal stuff without even thinking in advance.
And as my final character was mage it just felt so tempting to use illusion instead of basic sneaking, and that just ruined my game.

mages have literally no downsides to playing them. you can wear heavy armor and run around with a sword and shield (at least in oblivion) and cast spell with only a small penalty.

in pretty much every other fantasy setting mages had downsides ie being fragile and easily killed by melee characters or only being able to cast a certain number of powerful spells per battle. also, mages in other games usually specialize. you become an illusionists that focuses on charms and hexes or an elementalist that specializes in damage or a healer or druid etc. dark messiah and bioshock which they borrowed from heavily only let you upgrade a few spells/plasmids to their max potential. in TES you can easily become expert and master in all of the schools of magic without even picking all of them as majors. and as i mentioned on top of that you can wear heavy armor and walk around with the best shield and most powerful weapon or bow in the game. where exactly is the downside to that class. TES is the only game out there that lets mages do literally everthing every other class can do by simply casting a spell and not having to use up any resources or by materials ever. its bad game design.

best thief character build........ heavy armor, sneak + chameleon/invisie, charm spells, openlock (no need to worry about breaking lockpicks anymore albiet the minigame was pretty easy). umbra and aegis. restoration for healing(alchemy not needed since you can do everything with a magic spell) shield and reflect spells.

best mage character build...... heavy armor, invisie/chameleon spells, openlock for looting, charm. umbra and aegis. restoration for healing shield and reflect spells

best warrior build.................... heavy armor, invisie/chameleon spells, openlock for looting, charm. umbra and aegis. restoration for healing. shield and reflect spells.

the game literally forces me to make an active decision to gimp myself by wearing light armor and not abusing the illusion spells and deliberately picking security instead of a much more useful alteration skillset if i want to play someone that actually feels like a thief instead of a mage moonlighting as a catburglar. same thing with fighters....if i want to play a pure fighter then i have to not pick alteration for shield spells and restoration for isnta heal spells as well. normally i wouldnt mind because other games give you an incentive to play a thief or warrior character. but not in TES. the mages get to use the same melee power attacks as the warrior and they get to open all the locks and chests as a thief. the game is broken when there is essentially only on build and that is a battlemage. some locks should ONLY be openable with high level security and pure warriors should be able to perform melee moves that no one else can.

im so glad they moved to the perk system because im really hoping that it prevents the "uber clase battlemage" from happening all over again.

One could just as easily say "warriors have no downsides to being them. You can have the strength and durability of a Tyrannasaurus Rex, where a full suit of Daedric Armour, wield a Claymore, knock an ogre out with your bare fists, AND use all the spells that the wizards do if you bother to beef up your magic skills! It's not fair, its not fair!"

Come now.

The main problem with what most of ye naysayers are postulating is that it offers limitations over options, and the limitations are absolute. As much as you may dislike and disparage "don't use it" as an option, you still have that option. If you start handicapping mages by hamstringing their abilities, you take away the options of a pure mage. . . and of any character who might want to max out certain spells. In order to perfectly accomodate your playstyle and take away the lure of temptation, you would start deleting options from the game.

That is like someone who spends all their money at strip clubs asking the governent make the clubs illegal, so that they can save their money, or someone with a drinking problem asking that liquour be outlawed so as to save them from themselves, or someone who spends too much time watching television or playing video games asking the government to outlaw those entertainment forms to keep them from lazing about the house all day instead of being constructive. It is a plea which completely ignores the millions of people who enjoy the above mentioned things, and are able to do so in a responsible way.

Narrowed down, the "handicap the mage" posts read essentially like this, "I don't have the self control to play the way I ideally would like to so long as any gameplay options that could make my gameplay easier exist, no matter how much I dislike them in theory", Or, "I like to play this type of character, but I hate the fact that people can play characters who can do things that I don't want my character to do and actually benefit from it."

It basically comes across like you don't want mages to have any abilities that might actually be worth having.

You want to play as a pure mage or warrior? DO SO! Immerse yourself in actually being that character type. And as such, you should probably never even set foot in a mages guild, nor a spell shop. Your alteration/ illusion skills should be next to nil, in which case you will never be able to cast the spells that tilt the game so "unfairly" to your advantage. If you actively decide to break your intended character type by become learned in sorcery for the purpose of an easier play through, that is entirely on you. NO one should be asked to feel sorry for you or sympathize with you because you CHOSE not to stick to your own preffered playstyle. Certainly no one should have their favoured play methods crippled to accomodate your lack of consistency/conviction/dedication.


The inability of some players to maintain their preffered playing style just because there are options in the game which would make them more powerful, despite breaking their playing style, is not a good reason to implement a more restrictive system.

If a player wants to be entirely non-magical, the game allows that. If a player wants to be a pure thief or warrior and never set foot in a mages guild, or to be a pure mage and never lift a sword, or wants to be a minor hedge-wizard with powers of a supernatural but very limited nature, that is all fine, and the games allow one to do that and still complete the main quest. If a player wants to be the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Albus Dumbledore, or Raistlin, or Elminster, able to walk into a room and paralyze a dozen enemies with no more than a wink, that is also fine, and the game allows this as well. In short, the game leaves players with options.

If a player cannot handle those options, and feels compelled to play in a manner that does not suit them just because they can and it offers them a more powerful character, that is a fault of that player, not of the game.

The mention of other games only allowing certain spells to be mastered does not make those games better. If anything, one can argue that only being able to master one discipline of magic, or a small selection of spells, is as unrealistic and immersion breaking as being able to master every school of magic. Certainly a truly epic and legendary wizard should be proficient in more than one school.

It is not for the person who preffers to play as a hedgewizard to come in and deny the player who wishes to become an archmage of astounding powers the ability to do so, any more than it is for said Archmage to come into the hedgewizards game and force him to learn and use top tier destruction and restoration spells.

I can't stand cry babys like you who cry over somthing just becuase you think its "overpowerd" give me a break its just a video game. Also for magic players they might not wamt to use their lockpick skill becuase they are magic users and not theif type characters. For Frenzy its a cool spell becuase you can cast it at a group and make them attack each other while you sneak by or somthing, it brings tactical advantages and its really fun. If you do not like those spell or magic being overpowerd than don't use it, that simple.....

Well certain things can be improved fr example inviability and chameleon can work similar to this

Novice
Become invisible while motionless, movement will break invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Apprentice
Able to move invisibly while crouched, interacting with the environment or bumping anyone breaks invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Journeyman
Able to perform stealth kills and critical strikes while invisible, bumping anyone or interacting with the environment breaks invisibility. Inflicts sneak attack damage on strike that breaks invisibility, cannot recast spell if detected.
Expert
Able to interact with the environment while invisible, interacting don't breaks invisibility until not seen by actor, cannot recast spell if detected.
Master
Able to hide sight of enemy but enemy will aware of presence of character around and will search.

For first Invisibility is not stealth since Light has no effect o it so invisibility can be used even in areas full of light,
for second actors thats aware of player presence can search for player and if bump into him effectively breaking his invisible state, or by force player (by saying something like "catch you... you cant hide forever') to make stupid things thats will break his invisibility like attack or open doors (interact with objects), for second creatures can fill presence of invisible actor because of their beast mind thats hard to affect with certain illusion spells and their animal senses, enemy mages actually can cast detect life spell and if their level + skill level+ magnitude of spell will be greater then player character level + skill level + magnitude of spell then player will be detected in invisible state, thats can be difference between invisibility and chameleon, under chameleon character will be always detected by detect life spell.
Chameleon will work as not additional spell but as middle-high level perk thats add chameleon spell effect to base invisibility spell and can has requirements in some sneak skill perks or levels.
Chameleon must be caped, 100% chameleon must not be achievable in game only with CS, 50-75% chameleon will be best cap, for second actors must use detect life spell thats will always found character under chameleon, chameleon can work as support spell for sneak skill not as replace of it, so it can lower light penalty for sneaking characters, as well as be overridden by direct light spell since actors can still hear movement of character thats will increase detection,

There can be different additional spell effects thats can be added as addons to invisibility via perks like
Demoralize Aura: hide real character vision and make him looks fearsome for enemies effectively demoralizing them and make them flee, don't work on certain actors.
Charming Aura: real character vision and make him looks charming to actors don't work in combat, but affect actors in certain radius around caster.

About Charm spell since now dialogues work in gamemode charm 100 for 1 sec isn't so powerful gamebreaker as before
About Frenzy and other mind controlling spells I'd like to see something similar this mod from Oblivion
Mind-Control Crime
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=24099


Of course there also can be something similar to this
Stealthy Absorbs and Drains v1
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=28292


About paralyze well there is also start kicking consequences from removing of attributes form Skyrim, I'd like to see willpower based spell resistance and endurance based check versus poisons, but since we don't have attributes need create alternative way, well poisons resistance can be based on fatigue and health maximums - current levels of fatigue and health and level of actor versus magnitude of paralyze spell which one can be based on charged magicka and skill levels in illusion spell school, as replace of willpower there can be willful resistance trait for starting choose or as special training trait receivable from certain fraction.

Open lock well certainly there will be some improvements like dependency of magnitude of spell versus lock level (so more complex locks will be out of our skills until we level Alteration enough) based on skill levels and charged magicka, spell can be chance based where is chance increase with skills in Alteration but never has 100% success, failure in magic unlock can trigger trap so need to be prepared before unlocking, as well spell can emanate light and noise on unsuccessful attempt.

Magic is very strong in virtually every fantasy game I've ever played. WoW, Oblivion, DA: Origins, even Demon's Souls. Wouldn't bother me if it was the same in Skyrim.

I have a feeling those figures arent exact lol

Obviously, you lack the ability to see that it's not fun playing as a pure mage in vanilla Oblivion. Different players have different play styles. Some prefer melee, whereas some prefer magic. Some might even want to mix a bit of both. People care about being over and underpowered because they would like balance between different play styles whether it's a single player game or not. Why would anyone, who loves playing as mages, want to technically be forced to play as another type of character because the game's developers failed at proper gameplay balancing between the classes? Sure Skyrim is a single player game, but wouldn't it be unfair for others who don't like melee if Bethesda made the melee combat system completely unrivaled when compared to say the magic or marksman system? I don't know about you, but I would hate to have to be forced to play as a warrior because mages just can't really kill things and survive.

Yes, thank you.
Please just go play another game if you are so hung up about balance and overpowered.
Its simply not what elder scrolls is about. Its about you as the pc having full control over an intricate world, if you play it just right. Its about you being the underpowered slob if you want to.
Its a game made ( I feel) by people who like games.
Its not a bioware game where its 20hrs for your buck, its about replayability.

I do not want ridges I have to traverse around as in fallout, thats lame world design. I want to float over those ridges.
I do not want the game to tell me an item is out of my reach for my level, I want to decide for myself.
Its my world, my game, Im the pc.
Freedom.

and in those games if you are a mage you are restricted in what kind of armor you can use.........you cant open locks with magic in them you have to use their version of security or pick lock skill and some games even limit what kind of weapons you can use. with oblivions system the ONLY class to play was a battlemage. if you wanted to be the best thief you had to be a battlemage, best warrior same thing become a battlemage. it is NOT good game design when there is only one class that covers every concievable situation and turn any other choices into deliberate decisions to gimp themselves.

thankfully the perk system sounds like its going to prevent you from becoming uber in everything since you can only have 50 of them and it will force specialization so im not overly worried. it sounds like bethesda figured out their mistake from oblivion.

as for people complaining about balance in a single player game. WTF! what the hell are console players supposed to do, they cant mod it out. is everyone just supposed to shut up and hope that bethesda will do everything they want or maybe....just maybe if they make the opinions known and enough people agree with them, bethesda will change the game to suit their preferences. what kind of tool tells other people to just shut up and not offer feedback on a game. that is just crap.

edit: the last part is not directed at you sneakmaster but at some other posters after you.

When I tried playing Daggerfall as a pure mage, I had a very hard time going through dungeons. When I played Morrowind, I was a pure mage, and I envied the awesome melee weapons of mass destruction and awesome (ex. Spear of Bitter Mercy), but stuck to my spells that offered many spells varieties (that had separate skills that you needed to train up in order to successfully cast them). In Oblivion, it was the first time I played a pure mage smoothly, having spells cast without fail and becoming only limited on remaining mana. In all of the examples above, playing a warrior was pretty simple and cost me less deaths. It was only when I got to higher levels that it felt kinda balanced out.

From DF to OB, in my opinion, magic is getting smoother to use, but perhaps too easy to cast. This allowed non-magic users to cast magic, only being additionally restricted to skill level. However, in terms of combat, at low levels, warriors felt like they plowed through enemies faster than my mage could ever achieve. At higher levels, it felt balanced out, sure mages had alot more variety, but warriors only needed to use their main weapon to wreak havoc, all the while using power attacks that had chances to knockdown and paralyze. I won't comment on the thief, although there was my assassin in OB that used poison bow combos to one shot alot of things, but I've only played a stealth character in OB.

I think mages didn't have an easier time to kill enemies, but they had an easier time leveling skills and gaining power. Where you could only gain levels in Blade by hitting something, you could create a spell that you would cast repeatedly to level up that skill. It also didn't help that warriors couldn't bash locks open. But this was for Oblivion and it's already been released. Now, let's move on to Skyrim.

What I think Skyrim will offer other non-magical classes? Here is what I believe:

• Frenzy, Rally, Calm, Paralyze, etc.? --> Possibly a certain dragon shout will use these effects.
  
• Locks? --> Perhaps they may be bashed open.
  
• Anything else you could possibly assume mages will have over your non-magical character? --> Possibly perks will address these issues.

Hopefully, non-magical characters will be "balanced", not in the sense that you don't have an equivalent of something mages offer, but in the sense of physical skills offer fun abilities that give physical skills variety and a unique feeling.

I know we're asking for change from what we've gotten in the past, but at least wait until the E3 demo is shown...if it's shown.

Count me as one of those people who lack that ability. I do find the game fun playing as a pure mage. I've also had fun playing as a pure warrior, a pure thief, and also as various hybrid types.

Stop with that second sentence and it should be obvious the problem with this discussion is exactly that there are different play styles. Here are just a few.

• Some love the fact that Elder Scrolls aren't constrained by the tired stereotypes of warriors, mages, and thieves.
  
• Some want to be able to play a "pure" character type and are frustrated if something is unachievable with that character.
  
• Some what to player a "pure" character specifically so that some things will either be extremely difficult or even impossible.
  
• Some are concerned that when they play different types of characters some are more powerful than others.
  
• Some people find it very hard to play a pure mage because they think magic is underpowered.
  
• Some people think playing a mage isn't fun because magic is overpowered.

Honestly there's absolutely no consensus. As someone else noted (possibly in this thread) if you know the quirks of the game any character can be overpowered with or without magic. If you don't use the quirks any of character could also be a real challenge to play.

Oblivion wasn't broken, it just didn't meet everyone's expectations. And as they change the system for Skyrim it will just result in another group being dissatisfied because there is no right answer.

No offense to you and anyone else who disagree with those who felt pure magic users were mostly underpowered in vanilla Oblivion, but I'm glad not everyone thinks like you guys. I'm glad talented modders who created wonderful magic mods such as Midas Magic, Supreme Magicka, and Fearsome Magicka could see how under-represented pure magic users were in vanilla Oblivion. Not to say that the melee combat system wasn't flawed in vanilla Oblivion either, but it was generally better than the magic system; besides, mods such as Deadly Reflex fixed some of the issues with bland melee combat.

those mods were mostly geared towards fixing the crappy vanilla spells which pretty much everyone agrees svcked in most cases wizards fire and a couple of others being the exceptions. most people simply used custom spells that were incredibly easy to exploit which is why im glad they got rid of spellmaking altogether. if i remember correctly at least one of those mods also suggested using a mod that increased weapon damage to keep pace with the increased magic damage. the thing to watch for is if they get the right balance in skyrim since you cant make your own spells now. its more important that ever that they get the right mix. im gonna put money down that they wont get it right on the first try and will require a patch to balance it......but since im playing a nord with axe and shield anyways i have the luxury of waiting for the patch before i get to a mage character.