have you even been following the info we've been receiving?

we can dual-wield spells, or have a spell in one hand and a weapon in the other... even go at it gandalf-style dual-wielding a staff and a weapon!

not only that, we can COMBINE spells if dual-wielding them, and use them in several different ways... like turning a fireball spell into a flamethrower, or placing a rune on the ground to create some kind of exploding spell!

skyrim's magic system is going to be alot of things, but one thing it isnt, is "simplified"... i also highly doubt they would get rid of all those spells that weaken the enemy... that would just be stupid.

Simplified in the sense that there is no way without spellmaking to approach the depth of the previous games.
The number of possible spells in Morrowind and Oblivion is in the magnitude of millions upon millions.
This is greater than 85 spells, even if you can cast em differently or combine them.

What worries me is that in past games Bethesda has shown they arent very good at making spells.
This didnt really matter because spellmaking allowed you to tweak effects into spells that were useful.

What are we going to do with a finger of the mountain this time?

well obviously they have got rid of all the drain/absorb/fortify attribute spells, because there are no attributes. Also, the combining thing hasn't been properly confirmed, Todd said he would like to have it in, but is not a 100 percent on it.
Just because you can have two spells on the go at the same time, and each has several different 'types' depending on how long you hold down the button, doesn't mean it isn't simplified, does it? The fact they have took out a crap load of spells that related to attributes, by logic, is literally the definition of simplification.

Did say I was nit picking.

"What are we going to do with a finger of the mountain this time?"

I suppose speak you magic words softly, and carry a big stick.
At least this game, if you want hitting with a big stick perks, it will adversely affect your magic perks, so you have to think, and decide whether to go pure mage or less magically powerful spellsword type, not a decision you were forced to make before.

It has been THEORIZED how Mysticism work.
The Psijc Order believed that the spells were spiritual in nature, but the Mages Guild denies it.
Basically, they're spells they can't understand, and can't put anywhere else. 200 years is a long time, things can change during that.

But let's not get into this again, last time I did it ended up badly...


The depth of past games:
Create uber spell->Throw uber spell like a ball->hit enemy->win

This is like saying, they can't make weapons for Fallout...

That doesn't remove Damage Health, Damage Magicka, Drain Health, Drain Magicka, Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, Fortify Health, Fortify Magicka, and Restore Health as spell effects. Damage, Drain, Absorb, Fortify, Restore Fatigue can easily be replaced with Stamina equivalents. Drain/Absorb Skill spells will also be available most likely. That's 16+ spell effects available in Oblivion that had no effect on attributes.

That is not the same at all and you know it.
The spellsystem allowed you to tweak any an all variables of NPC behaviour. It was amazing in its depth and complexity.
Reducing it to what you describe is a purpously fallacious way of putting things. Purpously, because this has been explained before.

Fallout has nothing to with this, dont muddle the issue by comparing apples to pears.

Fact is that pre made spells in both Oblivion and Morrowind show an amazing lack of understanding what the system could actually do and how to make a useful spell. Or possibly this was on purpose and the true power of magic was only intended for those that took the time to learn the intricacies of spellmaking.

I think the magic system will have more dept than MW and OB. Many spell effects that can be combined for more advances spells, dual wielding spells, no throw-spells-while-blocking-and-swinging-a-sword-at-the-same-time-battlemages, and there is possibly spellcrafting(according to the description of the demo from some gaming sites). + the spell will have more than one use even when they stand alone(flamethrwer, fireball etc.), and side-effects like slowing, magica drain and damage over time(destruction spells).

Some have mentioned that without the attributes we will have less dissabling spells, but I'm quite sure that spells that will slow down or weaken your opponent will be included. And even though some spells have side-effects I'm sure there will be spells that are designed for doing it more effectively(drain, slow, dmg magic etc).

The addition of at least two dozen confirmed dragon shouts (that are completely separate from the over 85 confirmed spells) gives the player even more interesting combat choices. Some of you people are just complaining to complain. The whole point of removing attributes was to give players greater control over their characters. Isn't that what role-playing is ultimately about? Forging one's own unique character? If removing redundant/indirect attributes gives me greater control over my character, then I won't miss those attributes one bit. That's my two cents, anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following SPELL EFFECTS from Oblivion have NOT been ruled out for Skyrim yet: Burden, Feather, Fire Shield, Frost Shield, Open, Shield, Shock Shield, Water Breathing, Water Walking, Turn Undead, Damage Health, Damage Magicka, Disintegrate Armor, Disintegrate Weapon, Drain Health, Drain Magicka, Fire Damage, Frost Damage, Shock Damage, Weakness to Fire, Weakness to Frost, Weakness to Magic, Weakness to Shock, Calm, Chameleon, Charm, Command Creature, Command Humanoid, Demoralize, Frenzy, Invisibility, Light, Night-Eye, Paralyze, Rally, Silence, Detect Life, Dispel, Reflect Spell, Soul Trap, Spell Absorption, Telekinesis, Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, Cure Paralysis, Fortify Health, Fortify Magicka, Resist Magic, and Restore Health. Damage, Drain, Absorb, Fortify, Restore Fatigue can be replaced with Stamina equivalents. That's 54 spell effects that are UNAFFECTED by the removal of attributes. There's also Bound spells, Summon spells, and Drain/Absorb Skill spells.

Yes, you have posted this before.
I dont know what your point is with this.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that spellmaking provides more depth and customization that pre-made spells ever can hope to.

I wasn't talking about spellmaking, I was clearly talking about the removal of attributes. If there's spellmaking, then we'll still have a lot of options. If not, then we'll have a lot of different default spells. Either way, I see depth.

This argument again. Oh no, you lost the ability to exploit a system that was broken where it wasn't boring as [censored]. Millions of combinations? Sure. Most of them useless. Seriously. Tell me that they're not while you're making a spell that combines Burden (not as good as Damage Strength for its intended purpose) and Drain Luck, perhaps incorporating Resist Fire (AKA Fire Shield Only Not as Good).

I see a lot of people on here rolling their eyes at words like "streamlining," but let's be honest: like everything else crunchy and full of numbery goodness in the Elder Scrolls, magic bore some very serious flaws that went unaddressed for far too long. They cry in outrage when Todd Howard said that magic felt less Merlin the wizard and a bit more Merlin Goldman, CPA and Financial Consultant, probably because he was pretty dead-on when he said it. For the vast majority of enemies, Fire 35 damage on touch was functionally identical to Frost 35 damage on touch, and the only thing that spellmaking did to improve it was to allow you to make more efficient spells than what was available in the game. Either that, or blatantly overpowered exploits, or hilarious but high-utility spells like a brief high-power Jump spell that let you bunny-hop across the continent like a madman. Sure, that was fun. You know what though? I think the new system sounds a hell of a lot more fun.

And to be honest, if they balance the spells properly, then it will have more tactical depth than the previous system. You think combining spells on the fly doesn't do the job? What the [censored] kind of spells were you making, exactly? Perhaps a neat spell that summons all the pieces of bound armor in the game, and a suitable weapon? Perhaps the bound armor spell simply summons a full suit now, its armor rating dependent upon your Conjuration skill, constantly draining magic at a regular rate while activated, rather than being a duration effect? I'm thinking either that or you used some sort of crazy spell that boosts everything, effectively an in-game god mode. And you abused the broken Alchemy system to pump out ridiculous amounts of Restore Magicka potions so you could use it in every damn fight if you wanted.

Seriously, if they just merge spells that naturally go well together then lots of the combos you used anyways are probably in there. Don't think so? Convince me. Tell me the specific spells you fondly remember, explain how they weren't broken as [censored], and tell me how you think that was lost, preferably without coming across as bitter and condescending. (Yes, irony. Move along.)

The only useful variable among them was aggression, and nobody said that those NPC only attributes will be out.

And it doesn't change the fact that no matter how deep and complex spell you've made, it was a fire and forget spell.


In Oblivion they were stuck in a set form, they couldn't make spells yourself couldn't make.

Now with this limitation off they have more freedom to balance out things.

Breathing fire (a confirmed dragon shout) automatically trumps spellcrafting. I can't wait to learn all 20+ dragon shouts!

Everything we know about Skyrim's magic system so far automatically trumps spellcrafting!

I actually think the magic combat will be more complex than in oblivion, because everything was basically just numbers in oblivion. It would have been cool to be able to control the spells more, like we can in Skyrim I'm looking forward to try it out!

Guys, I think you're skipping over the depth of the debate in favor of the bells and whistles

The designers of Oblivion allowed the player to discover magic for themselves, but only a little. Some of the effects discovered were effects which the programmers didn't foresee or didn't expect to be exploited (e.g. weakness to magic on self). That gave the impression that the player was actually discovering the ins and outs of the magic system for themselves. By giving the player more choice in how they utilize spells, and less choice in the ways we can use spells, Bethesda may actually restrict the usefulness of the system and create something that looks pretty and functions badly.

They may get the flash, pretty aspects of the game working well, but its really not worth anything if the player is restricted from making a restore health 40 points in 1ft for 1 seconds on target spell because the 40 point restore health on target spell HAS to last for 40 seconds, and therefore casts far too much magicka for your level 70 pure mage, or requires too much "power up" time for the player to use during combat, or the 4 point spell over 10 seconds just isn't powerful enough to do the job you want to do.

Damn it. Bloody double post. Last time I did this, it combined the two posts together...

Magic in Oblivion was point click, nothing mystical or different from other play styles.

Simplified? Because spellmaking is possibly out?

Let me be frank here guys; in my opinion, spellmaking was the single most unbalancing feature in Oblivion. And yet, I do think that it was necessary, mainly because oblivion spells were not designed properly.

The main issue with Oblivion spells was that their stats (damage, duration...) were fixed. Problem with that? Well, if a spell has fixed damage, then it's bound to become obsolete at some point. Bethesda attempted to solve this by introducing vendors who sold many different versions of the same spell (being the only real difference their damage and duration). And this was a bad move, because we ended up with cluttered spell lists. But of course even with all the different versions available, the variaty was not enough. Too many times the spells we could buy were either too weak or too powerful, creating an unbalanced experience. And here was when spellmaking came into play. To find that spell that was just right for us, we had to create it. In other words, Bethesda left us the difficult task of balancing the game ourselves. Some may have achieved this and others may have unbalanced their game even more, but that's another topic...

My point is that if spell stats had scaled with our magic skills instead of being fixed... we wouldn't have needed 5 versions of each particular spell AND we wouldn't have need spellmaking either.

Personally, I hope this is the case for skyrim. There should only be ONE fire spell, and the more skilled you get in destruction, the more powerful it should naturally become. If the system ends up being like this, I'll be perfectly fine if spellmaking is removed.

No, thats not why we want spellmaking still in. Not to tweak pre existing spells, but to make new ones, to add depth and variety and RP possibilities. So again, there's no reason to get rid of it and every reason to keep it. Without sell creation, magic will be more linear/streamlined/etc.

Personally, I'm extremely excited to mix the trap style of every spell with the new bow system. Frost traps combined with an opening stealth shot will be amazing.

I think it's already confirmed that we'll be able to use spells in many different ways (say for fire: trap on the ground, flamethrower, etc.) I don't see why they wouldn't also scale with us. I never used spellmaking anyway.

You keep saying spellmaking adds "depth." That's a weak argument with the addition of dragon shouts. You must explore to acquire different levels of them, meaning it's completely optional (for most) to have them. That's depth. Todd Howard said that Oblivion's spellmaking system removed the magic from magic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsY_10xiVAs So, it might be in (just not like in Oblivion). The possibility of combining spells will add "depth," as well.