Youd rather the game play for you? What youre describing sounds like any real time strategy game or final fantasy clone and doesnt seem to be the direction this game is going,

*sigh*

I'm not slamming fortify spells, I loved being able to boost up my skills because it made being a mage so much more versatile. I was just proving a point to somebody who said that a "fortify axe spell" was iffy.

I understand where youre coming from with the whole not being able to hit buttons accurately but if its that big of a problem for you and the game isnt designed for the player to be the sort of out of body commander that you like to play as(sounds to me like youre describing any RTS or fintal fantastyish game like i said earlier based on your quote) i guess all we can say is tough luck.

Edit: another option, maybe getting a keyboard with Macro keys on it would help you, youd be able to make them perform several different spells in the timespan you pick. Since you said this earlier "For myself, I'd much rather prepare a spell that does all of those things (more or less), aim, click once, then just watch it unfold on its own." That seems like it could help you a bit.

Edit2: Personally i like the way things are moving, i like having to react quickly anticipating when you should block etc / how to defend yourself against enemy mages by seeing the element theyre about to cast and casting something to counter it before they blast you, etc. But i can see how that isnt for everyone...like i said you might try getting a macroable keyboard, seems like it could help you a lot.

"magic combat will be way to simplified"

Where is the way to simplified? Kidding, in all seriousness I thinks it's to early to judge the magic system.

im choosing to look at it this way . if im rping a mage im gonna be smart about how i cast my spells im not going to want to cast 5 different spells if i can cast two or power cast one to get the same effect.

it feels to me like thats the aproach they have taken to a lot of aspects in the game ie: im a warrior i dont know what my speed number or my fatigue number is but i know that if i use this lump of iron in my paw im going to get better at it. it feels like they are only putting numbers in where they absolutly need to.

I feel the same way. While I can play and enjoy both FPS-style action games and turn-based strategic games, the TES series has a unique blend of tactical and strategic gaming that is far better than either one alone.

The hype about Skyrim so far has focused on the great improvements to the tactical gaming aspects. That leaves some of us feeling a little little uneasy. For many people, it's a great thing because they love those tactical gaming features and don't care much about the strategic elements of the game. Their assumption seems to be that those of us who care about strategic game features should be playing a game centered around those things. But that's missing the point that some of us love the unique mixture of tactical and strategic gaming the TES series has always supported.

The ability to play a more tactical game as a mage is a good thing. If I'm forced to do it would be a bad thing. I'm not really worried though, it will probably be TES 7 or 8 before the balance is destroyed completely.

No - actually what I was describing is every TES game up to and including Oblivion.


You could have also said nothing at all and simply accepted the fact that somebody has an opinion that differs from yours.



Well stated, and thanks. And you're right. If I wanted to play a pure strategic game, I would. Well... actually I enjoy playing those games too, and when I'm in the mood, I do. But TES has always had a special place in my heart because it combines the two in a great sandbox setting. As I noted before, one of my favorite things to play is an unarmored claymore fighter, because I love the timing of getting off a power swing that connects just as my opponent steps into reach. I love stepping in and out of range and moving constantly so that I can get away with not wearing armor simply by not getting hit in the first place.

But there's an upper limit to the amount of key-pressing I want to do. TES games have never passed that limit before, but I'm concerned that this one will, and particularly that it will with magic, which, to me, seems the least appropriate place to do so.

I can understand why they're doing it. I've spent the vast majority of my time here on the Oblivion boards, doling out advice and sharing stories, and I know how many people have said that they never play mages because they think it's boring and they just want to get in there and hack things up with Umbra and so forth. This change could well make magic exciting enough to draw in those players - if they do it well, I'd say it certainly will. But it ends up moving away from what I've always valued about TES games. And yeah - I'm selfish enough that I think that moving away from what I value is grounds to post my opinion of it.

Ah well......

then play as a warrior! Isn't it more fun to bash in skulls with a war hammer or lop people's arms off with a mighty swing??

Certainly dragon battles and large groups of enemies, at least, will require strategy. I think slower backpedaling speed will insure a level of strategic combat, as it "removes the strike-and-flee tactic frequently employed in Oblivion." - http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/01/24/skyrim-building-better-combat.aspx?PostPageIndex=1 Anyway, I don't think we should categorize Skyrim's combat as either tactical or strategic for now. Besides, the high level of freedom in forging your own character (race, weapon/spell choice, skills, perks, etc.) means that we can each play how we want to play. Let's assume the best for now. Otherwise, we'll end up hitting our heads against a desk (come November 11th) for mistakenly believing that Bethesda would ever "destroy" the Elder Scrolls series (which we all know they won't. EVER.).

I'm confused. What exactly is YOUR personal concern, in regards to magic combat?

I really think this magic system will be completely fine, but I think in the back of every to-be-Wizard's mind, they were hoping to read something like "over 200 spells" instead of "80~".

but if it's 80ish unique ideas for spells, and not just "fire1, fire2, fire3, fire blast, fireball, firestorm, firebomb" all being individual spells, then i will be squealing at the variety.

Honestly most of those "Drain endurance 10%" sort of spells were just totally useless. I mean, how much difference do those things really make? You cant tell if your opponent is even being affected most of the time. Granted there were some cool things you could do with spell combos and spell creation (like the infamous and awesome fortify athletics x1000) but really as a part of combat it felt really bad.

I liked what they described for skyrim with the "wizard duels" where you can throw up a block spell while flinging firebolts and stuff with the other hand, not to mention possible spell combos and cool new effects. I would much rather have this Bioshock-style magic system honestly.

At least your honest about the fact that you opinion may be in the minority and that many others will like x,y or z feature. I often hear other with similar opinions to your on this board yet, they seem unwilling to admit that there approach is not popular and other ways of doing things may draw in more players. Theres never going to be a game that is perfect(at least to me) but with mods at least we can help customize the game to our liking. Of course if the core gameplay veers to far off(for whatever TES fans liking) then thats not a possibility.

My UI concerns only affect a small portion of the SR community, sometimes your just on the outside looking in.

this may just be the reason i acctualy make a true mage for the first time ever

Sorry i dont recall being able to hit one button and have your character do a large complex task on his own, unless youre JUST referring to the spell crafting. but quoting you you said "For myself, I'd much rather prepare a spell that does all of those things (more or less), aim, click once, then just watch it unfold on its own" so i appologize i misunderstood there and didnt see you were referring ONLY to spells there.

Also on your point of "The things that person does depend on his/her skills - not mine"

Someone in another thread mentioned that aspects like this will gradually fade out due to increase of technology which i agree with and think its a very good point....but its still there in skyrim, just more in the background you still have 18 skills and 3 attributes that affect everything. But now you have MORE control...you still have that dodge skill that rolls the dice on your dodge but you can do MORE yourself now such as active blocking and w/e. So you just seem to be in favor of the dice roll method of the oldest rpg's.

Todd has even stated in the last interview that much of the draw of TES games is that its first person and puts you right into the action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVKXJVtZZs&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s

Oh, OK, my bad.

Almost like half the poisons were useless in oblivion,I agree, I think the magic system will be fine in skyrim(but meh thats just how i look at).I like the idea of haveing different lay outs on each hand for spells/charging up spells and adding the same two for a bigger badder spell.But for the mage's and magic users out there i mostly play as a combat assassin with little to no magic at all and for what little magic i will be useing prob be illusion so take what i said with a grain of salt.

I have no particular problem with admitting if and when my opinion is the minority opinion. I just get tired of having to defend it, as if it's "wrong" and somebody else is going to be able to "prove" that it's "wrong." Other people have different opinions. That's fine. I don't mind. It doesn't affect my opinion - I don't see mine as any more or less legitimate than anyone else's.

I don't like pepperoni pizza. I don't mind that my local pizza parlor serves it, because they have lots of other choices. But if they decided to drop all the other ingredients and only serve pepperoni, I'd probably complain. But I might well be in the minority - I have no doubt that lots of people would say, "Well, I never had any use for any of those other ingredients anyway, so it's fine with me. And now they can spend all their resources on the best possible pepperoni." And, to that extent, they'd be right. But I still wouldn't like it. That wouldn't make me "wrong" for not liking it, nor would it make them "wrong" for liking it. It's just the way it goes. And if so inclined, I'd string some words together to communicate that I didn't like it, and maybe it might make a difference, but the odds are that it wouldn't. And so be it. I'd still do it, just because I like stringing words together and I like getting my opinions outside of my head, so they don't just crash around in there and run into things.

Eh....

I'm concerned about the way that magic seems to be going in this game. My concerns might be unfounded. It might turn out to be great. It might turn out to be just as I fear it might be. Only time will tell, but for now, my concerns remain. And I'm tired of writing about them.

And yes - mods might just fix any concerns I might have anyway. If things don't work out as I hope, then I hope that they will. When all else fails, that's been the saving grace of TES.

The following SPELL EFFECTS from Oblivion have NOT been ruled out for Skyrim yet: Burden, Feather, Fire Shield, Frost Shield, Open, Shield, Shock Shield, Water Breathing, Water Walking, Turn Undead, Damage Health, Damage Magicka, Disintegrate Armor, Disintegrate Weapon, Drain Health, Drain Magicka, Fire Damage, Frost Damage, Shock Damage, Weakness to Fire, Weakness to Frost, Weakness to Magic, Weakness to Shock, Calm, Chameleon, Charm, Command Creature, Command Humanoid, Demoralize, Frenzy, Invisibility, Light, Night-Eye, Paralyze, Rally, Silence, Detect Life, Dispel, Reflect Spell, Soul Trap, Spell Absorption, Telekinesis, Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, Cure Paralysis, Fortify Health, Fortify Magicka, Resist Magic, and Restore Health. Damage, Drain, Absorb, Fortify, Restore Fatigue can be replaced with Stamina equivalents. That's only 54 spell effects. There's also Bound spells, Summon spells, and Drain/Absorb Skill. There are said to be over 85 spells in Skyrim AND this count DOESN'T include the reported two dozen dragon shouts.

To be honest, I think that this might be more of an intelligent direction to go with magic, and I'm sure that a modder will add in the ability to make custom spells if they don't like the system.

As long as we can still choose whether to use our spell as on self, on target or on touch, it won't be too simplified. But if we can only cast a restore health spell on ourselves, that will be too simplified. Basically, I feel that if the designers of the magic system have designed the magic system in such a way that if every player was to tell them about every single way they have used magic in the game, the designer should say "What the... YOU CAN DO THAT?!" without making a mental note to correct it at the next patch. (I feel that should apply to every aspect of the game)

For me, as long as they don't streamline the magic out of the RPG aspect of the game, like in Oblivion, I'll be happy.

I'd also like to have effects that say what they mean. Broken record if you've seen other posts, so I apologise. Weakness to magic is the case in point. If you cast it on yourself, it should amplify the effects of all the spells you cast on yourself. That's what it implies. So yes, you can spell stack. But if you've worked out you can spell stack, you deserve the reward, and you'll be absolutely begging to be killed if a lowly drain health 1 point touches you thanks to your overzealous casting. That's the trade off. After all, if you're roleplaying a powerful mage, maybe your mage is powerful because he realized how he can truly use magic more effectively. The fact is, if the player uses the gameplay mechanic to exploit the game in whatever way, he's only cheating himself out of everything the game has to offer except gamerscore.

Off topic, but on the same line, I'd like to be able to enchant items with as many constant effects of every spell effect available in game, so that I have custom-enchanted worn items that are as powerful as custom-enchanted weapons. Constant effects like restore health 2 points on self, 100% reflect damage/magic and so on. There were times in Oblivion when I felt like the only reason my character was more powerful/successful than others was because he could be bothered to get off his bum, and others when I felt that it was all because of a human player with a save and reload if he failed. Mind you, I don't expect these constant effects to come cheaply if Bethesda include them - I would imagine that you'd gain multiple enchantments at skill level 80 and the really powerful enchantments (e.g. restore health) at 100.

Try using a Frost spell to slow down a charging Frost Troll who can rip you apart in melee...whoops, he's resistant to Frost. Now, he's in your face eating it.

I don't see the point in removing Mysticism and reinstating Enchanting. Mysticism was a skill that was firmly rooted in TES lore since TES II: Daggerfall. Unlike the other spell schools, Mysticism may have even drew it's power from Aetherius itself (Hence, why it could trap souls). Hell, there was an entire order dedicated to that specific spellschool, the famous "Psijics of Artaeum". http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysticism. The way that Mysticism is described there, it's a bit like D&D's "Wild Magic".
Enchanting also wasn't a very good skill in TES III: Morrowind. You could have 100 points in Enchanting, yet still be incapable of doing certain enchants yourself, while the NPCs had 100% success rate, costing gold. Plus, once you acquired a set of Daedric Armor/Weapons and had them enchanted, there was very little incentive to Enchant again, it then gathered dust. The Enchanting skill determining the rate at which you consumed Charges on magical items, was ridiculous.

Sorry to nit-pick, but thaurmaturgy was also part of TES lore, and we have no information as to how enchanting will work, and specifically no evidence to indicate it will work in any way similarly to the way it did in Morrowind.

Thaumaturgy or miracle working was never as ingrained in lore as mysticism was however.