If you ignore the context maybes - what was actually being compared was magical and 'mundane' medical remedies - simple and apposite comparison in the context.

If you want projectile fireballs then think molotov cocktails. Molotovs are fairly simple and effective if you know what you are doing - and can do terrible damage to you if you don't. Next up is grenades or grenados as they were known a few hundred years ago. highy unstable in their early forms and the peole who used them were (respectfully) thought of as insane.

Besides the really big difference between scientific munitions and magica lies in spell casting, but the greatest similarity between them is in scrolls and potions. These are 'made' or crafted objects that can be used by anyone to heal or harm and are totally underrated in the game.

The Tamriellian equivalent of a munitions factory would be a group of enchanters hyped up on magica, stamina, int and speed potions churning out thousands of identical enchanted scrolls a day. That could be how the Sload Continent was sunk and in even more ancient times most of the lands of the Hist.

Morrowind handled the spell casting much better than Oblivion. In Oblivion, every average Joe can hurl the petty fireball, in Morrowind the average Joe could try, but would fail 9 times out of 10 without training.

That's just game play. Not relevant.

Here is where we diverge because it's a bit hard to argue that an actual massive Casle on an Island that you have visited, explored and whose inhabitants you are intimately involved with is less Loreful than the same castle located on the Mainland opposite. Ebonheart.

Software is a vessel for communication and visual communication is just as real and valid as the written word - in a computer are all made up from numbers and can all be reduced to binary numbers in any case.

Actually it is interesting in that Dunmer are highly fire resistant. Would you expect them therefore to be masters of fire because they have less reason to fear it, or are they sloppy having less reason to worry? The other side of it would be political - does the Mages Guild (Imperium) do not want more fire resistant Dunmer with easy-to-use Fireball spells. But there again it is said that the Dunmer are more proficient in Destruction Magica than other races - including most of the Mages Guild - so that leaves the Telvanni. And the Telvanni idea seems to be that the fittest are worthy so why make learning to use Magica easy?

I didn't detected an actual argument. So pardon me if I stick to elaborating my previous post in reply to #52.

Gameplay, specifically the mechanics are not relevant because they change every game, are a simple abstraction for various forms of (magical) interaction. The actual complexities are never described but can be presumed to be more complex.

ADMIRE! BOAST! JOKE! COERCE!

As I often do I offered a statement of what appears to be basic to me - rather than a wish to argue against.

We appear to be disagreeing about what is Lore - so I offered a way to define it - try some more

There are many different definitions of Lore:







Gameplay may be known. It is self demonstrative. And though it may not always be written down, it is something that is passed from hand to hand via the CD/DVD of the game that we purchase. That which is structured into each game is Lore - whether written or not. It is unfortunate for totally word-based Forums that they cannot copy all the Lore down and add it to their Libraries, but it exists - so how can it be totally dismissed, or dismissed without reason relevant to the game in a Forum such as this?

It is true that we do not add jpegs or clips of the experiences we have in-game to this forum - but we do put those on utube and via the linking system provided by this forum refer people here to them - and even in Libraries there can be books that contain drawings, prints etc ...

One's personal ACTIONS/choices in gameplay may not be Lore as they are not that which comes from the source. But the source and structure that gives those experiences upon which we base our in-game choices is the Game and being part of the repeated experience of the Universe of ES is Lore.

Is a Dev a Dev before his or her contributions are in-game? If no, then it is being in the game that makes something Lore and makes a Dev a Dev.

Sure what an active Dev proposes in-between releases is important and should be treated as potential or likely Lore. Some of it makes clear things that happened in-game as it shows us what the Devs were basing their creations on. But if you go too far down the ex-machina road then what you end up with is merely a Ghost. What will re-affirm MK's place in Es and the value of his contributions here and on other web-sites will be when his stuff is in the next game, be it written, verbalised or in pictorial form.

ALL THAT IS GOLD DOES NOT GLITTER

Something about Magic being unrealistic!!!!! Get outta town!

I'd disagree with that, there are some cases where game mechanics are lore, for example the "lost" passwall spell, the "spiked waters" of Vivec's Sermons (which are used as a Lesson for the Ruling King's benefit), the "is redeemed by each act he undertakes" and the "missing candles, for they are on the untrue side" passages of the Sermons, which all refer to game mechanics. In my book, they can't really be filed under Easter Eggs either. So, I'd say that mechanics do have some impact on lore.




When I have the choice between a fan saying what is to be considered lore and a dev/ex-dev/contributor to TES games saying what is lore, then I tend to believe the latter. Monkey Truth excluded.

K guyz um, the magic of Nirn is driven by myth and mysticism and other arcane systems of reckoning and stuff, so trying to quantify magic use in the setting into a quasi-scientific hierarchy like in a steampunk setting is COMPLETELY MISSING THE FREAKING POINT.

Kthxbye

Atleast we should see some more magical stuff, not only magic spells. Varla, welkynd and soulgem stones are simply not enough.

Truth there - I won't hold my breath waiting for MK bothering to tell me I'm wrong

Using other words to clarify I feel that Dev commentaries on what has been done and is in-game are likely to have a stronger position in the Lore than possible after-effects that may not make it into the next game. After all, what happens when one Dev contradicts another Dev out-of-game? Then I think it goes to the current Producer and the next release to determine what is. But there again, as this is ES, if one Dev did not contradict another you would likely be thinking they were only havvin a larf and not really serious about what they had said.

Leave in-game stuff open seems as important for modders and fans as it is for Devs.

Gameplay is lore down in every single of its aspects. For example, it is lore that the remove paralysis spell is useless because you can't cast it while paralyzed, so it was made just to be a waste of time and magicka. It is certainly not an oversight. Likewise, it is lore that people can put on a set of armor instantly, or disrobe instantly, or read twenty books and quaff a couple of potions instantly, even when paralyzed (since they can't cast spells, they can at least do that). Finally, it is lore that in the province of Morrowind, people engage in conversation by touching the tip of an arrow blue words that appear somewhere between the two interlocutors.

Furthermore, a recent study by the Imperial Public Works Society criticized the lack of urban planning on the part of the Imperial City's builders: while many drakes and much effort were spent upon the construction of unnecessarily oversized sewer systems, none of these myriad drainage systems actually connected to the lavatories or running water systems that they are supposed to power. Centuries of needless famines and epidemics are the result, and the stench of the city's slums can often reach even the mountainside roads leading to Bruma and Skyrim, should the wind blow in the right direction.

Or, at least, it would reach those roads, if there were any roads to Skyrim.

devs dont "larf." games are serious business.

Actually, the study also revealed that that the Imperial City has no lavatories or running water systems. Upon reflection, the members of the Imperial Commission decided this didn't matter - since no one actually needs to use the restroom. Or, for that matter, wash. Or hydrate.

The study also curiously noted that no one in the Imperial Province has had any children - for the last twenty years.

A rebuttal study by the Royal Diabellan Institute correctly noted that the population of Cyrod are too fugly to want to do engage in carnal activities which would result in offspring. Furthermore, or perhaps due to the aforementioned, they all sleep fully clothed.

OMG I thought it was that they had no need to excrete and reproduced by parturition. Next you will be telling me that Tamriel does not exist except as a word. :facepalm: How could I not have realised?

A more in-depth study revealed that said stench actually emanates permanently from Skyrim.

Nalion,

the particular sermon references back to the players experience of the previous games, not the mechanics themselves. Only then infinite oceans and spiked waters make sense. Though even then they're not out of place considering Vehks stature. I strongly dislike the odd reference to a spell that has gone missing, it's acknowledges that the game is just a game while I'm playing the game. It's easier to understand that passwall can't be used any more because the engine has changed, rather then have it lost without any good reason.

Still the concept of the player is relevant too lore but not the actual mechanics he uses.

Have you ever fallen through the floor on the High Fane in Vivec? Or anywhere else? If candles are on the untrue side (the side you see the candles from), what's the "true side" then? What's the Provisional House? Vehk understands that and he's trying to tell that to someone. Just a thought I find worthwhile to pursue...

Interesting points, Nalion. The "untrue" side is the game, then, and the true side is our reality, the Player's reality?

Are the pocket universes called Provisional Houses the same as the test areas that the devs use (I'm not sure of the exact jargon) -- the rooms that contain complete sets of armor and weapons, for example?

Technology itself wouldn't ruin it. At least not in the Hi-tech sense (Using a stick to light a fire is still using technology ) As long as any form of addition to the lore or gameworld is plausable, it can be done.

A gradual discovery and increased use of Dwemeri artifacts would be one. Waving a magic wand and making Tamriel a Sci-Fi- environment would not be one (Cyrodill 2.0)

That wouldn't be plausible, since development has heretofore been ignored. It would be necessary to rewrite history and shoehorn in a unique process of advancement for all of existing history, otherwise any developments would be a shallow imitation of the Industrial Revolution and come off as an attempt to cash in on another genre's fanbase. The Dwemer weren't steampunk because they did it all with magic.

I've read an interesting article which basically said that the guilds are halting progress on purpose to maintain economic and political stability.

Old Void Ranger.

The world is independent of the media it's delivered on, it only exists as an idea in our minds. So any imperfections in representation should not be explained through lore as representation can change. Vivec is reaching out by referencing in his metaphor the way we have experienced the world. But his knowledge of our experience does not mean that this experience happened in Tamriel. I might see the candles but they don't exist in my mind. What they represent -how far I am from dying- does.

Hence the the untrue side.