....but I've got to.....
Don't you understand?
I role play a paladin, so of course I'm morally superior. :angel:

I've loaded LAME after SM, However, I've merged Some SM plugins into Bashed Patch.

Will I Still get Lame Stuff?

38  SM_ShiveringIsles.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_OOO.esp  [Version 0.87]++  SM_MMM.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_COBL.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_AbsorbRestoration.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_EnableCharmChameleon.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_EnableRestoreEnchanting.esp  [Version 0.80]39  SM_EnchantStaff.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_Scrolls.esp  [Version 0.84]++  SM_SigilStone.esp  [Version 0.83]3A  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.69EV]++  bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicItemSigil.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicEVStartspells.esp  [Version 1.68EV]3B  bgMagicBonus.esp  [Version 1.62EV]++  bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp  [Version 1.68EV]3C  bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp  [Version 1.68EV]3D  StealthOverhaul.esp++  Item interchange - Placement for FCOM.esp  [Version 0.71]3E  bgMagicEVShader.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicShaderLifeDetect.esp  [Version 1.68]3F  bgMagicLightningbolt.esp

I haven't merged SM_ShiveringIsles.esp, though/

@Harryh11: Yes you should still get lame stuff. Lame is loading after SM anyway before the merge so when the merge is done in the bashed patch it should still correctly take note of that.

Hi, Very nice comparison, and very useful. I've been playing with Midas Magic which is quite good, and I've recently downloaded both LAME and Supreme Magicka with the intent of testing both out before I get my FCOM on. But after reading this, you say that you could use LAME and supreme Magicka together. Has anyone done this and knows how much this affects each of the mods? Ie. How much incompatibility there is? Or is it just better to play one of them? Thanks!

Oh sorry don't worry, just read the previous page looks like they work not too bad with eachother!

What a fabulous thread - great job in explaining the different magic mods - just what I was looking for and needed and explained by someone in the know. I have never really played a true mage before but plan to do so shortly. I have played as a fighter with a few mage attributes like restoration and destruction. LAME and SM seem to be the 2 magic overhauls I will install but not sure still which I will load first and second as of yet.

My somewhat related question is spell casting. Not sure if these questions truly belong in this thread but if the point of this thread is to increase the overall mage experience, I think it sorta fits.

First question - dont you run out of hotkeys if you use lots of different spells as a true mage? Is there a preferred, or group of hotkeys mods that would also add to the overall spell casting experience each with its own strengths and weaknesses?

2nd related question is deleting spells you never use...if I remember correctly, even with just 2 mage attributes, my spellbook became quite long after awhile with spells I never really used.

Although most hotkey mods have some sort of spell deletion, these are two excellent options, that imo, work great:


1) Spell Deletion - This mod only deletes spells, but it does so in a completely seamless fashion without the drawbacks inherent in other mods. You'd think it was a stock function if you didn't know better.

2) Use the spell delete function in Wrye Bash.

Or 3, COBL now includes a damn good one!

Yes it does. I had forgotten about it because it doesn't come up as an option if spell deletion is already installed. It's very seamless, as well (although, I'd prefer in this case for it to have a warning prompt).

Just to chime in on the discussion of ST in this thread so far:

1. ST doesn't "change" any spell effects, magicka costs, or anything like that. It is not a "magic overhaul" in the same way that SM and LAME are, and it's perfectly compatible with them.

2. ST doesn't add new spells like Midas, SM, and LAME do. In that sense as well, it is not a "magic overhaul". It was properly excluded from this comparison thread.

3. ST does change the way spell "mastery levels" are achieved, and it implements penalties for people who cast powerful spells at low skill levels. But the spells' effects and magicka costs are unchanged from vanilla (or vanilla + whatever overhaul mods you're using). If you're running out of magicka quickly, it's an issue unrelated to ST.

4. Staves are unchanged by ST. If you have a staff equipped and cast a powerful spell, ST may drain some of the staff's current charge and reduce the penalty you suffer. But the staff itself is not changed by ST, and all staves are compatible with ST.

I've given this some serious thought, and time. A lot of time.

In the end it comes down to something a certain monkey god called "fighting the flood of idiocy". I'm tired of it. Others may or may not pick it up, I have enough of it. On so many levels - individuals spreading outright lies about methods to solve and prevent problems, individuals degrading modders to worthless workslaves and being praised for finally "speaking the truth!", or that which has triggered my post quoted above.

What was it? To shorten it up, link was already given, scolding a user for even using mods like Supreme Magicka or LAME with difficulty enhancing mods like OOO - or to sum it up in one actual quote: "Why bother adding difficulty enhancing mods like MMMM and OOO in the first place?"

A totally over the top and unwarranted attack. (The magic rebalance in OOO has some serious exploits, in fact you need only four grand soul gems to become immortal. [That's even worse than Vanilla, where it took you at least 5. Suffice to say this obvious exploit was both fixed by Supreme Magicka and by LAME.]) This doesn't mean that OOO's magic rebalance is bad - but that's in the end the player's choice if he/she wants an alternative approach to magic, and that is nothing he/she should be scolded for.

Anyway, I have enough. Enough of "fighting the flood of idiocy". Often when some action threatens to either mess player's or modder's experience up, there are a few good souls out there who intervene. From PMs I got during the last year(s) I feel justified to say that I was one of them. No longer. The task to prevent some people from steering the hogcart against a wall is no longer mine. I had enough this year. Thank you for the fish. The main problem here is that people gather courage to say something only once someone admit being hurt, but before this happens (even if it is glaringly obvious that it will end badly) usually no one even tries to stop the madness which ought to have a highly negative impact. Just remember the "In general" abomination. That's all I'm going to say.

Coming back to this text (and similar ones I've written) this also means that I will be very picky about what I'm doing, even if I do anything at all. Do not expect any expansions, or you may be in for a disappointment.

;_;

Quite obviously there was a difference of opinion.
I stress once again it was an opinion taken entirely out of context by yourself, and if you read the so called offending thread more thoroughly, certainly not an attack on any mod.
Any differences of that opinion has been refused to be buried by yourself, which both surprises and disappoints me.
I totally fail to comprehend how one persons comments can be held against a whole community, which in threatening to delete this thread and/or not releasing further mods/expansions you certainly are doing.

I'm amazed when a disagreement like this occurs and one party simply refuses to discuss the relevant issue and goes into a sulk.
I was quite willing to debate the pros and cons of magic overhauls only to find myself on your ignore list.
Your objection was over a view expressed by myself alone, so I fail to see how raising the topic in this thread instead of continued through PM could be deemed anything else but looking for a vote of sympathy.

My take on the situation is that you don't want points of view expressed unless they agree with your own.
From your attitude it appears that you want freedom of speech quashed.

To me the whole episode has become infantile and does not warrant further discussion.

A little story :wub: :

Once there was a new Oblivion player, who likes Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights 2 and similar games with companions. He didn't like Oblivion's Level Scaling, so he installed OOO, too.

Unfortunately he wasn't as proficient with Oblivion as he thought - or maybe he had played too much with the difficulty slider. Anyway, he had problems, and opened up a thread about it. Says he was getting slaughtered, his companion is of no use, and what he did wrong.

In this bg - known for his intense hatred of companions* - stepped in. First saying that it's normal that he and his companion is getting slaughtered. Explaining that OOO isn't meant to be a cakewalk, that all companions are even going against the main goal of OOO, which is creating a challenge. bg even goes as far as scolding the user for even using it together with OOO, because OOO has it's own rudimentary companions build in. Why? Well, the user is just undermining the concept of the mod, which shouldn't be corrupted by bringing a helping hand with you! So why is the user even using the scaling overhaul in the first place, if he dares to take a companion with him? After all he's already cheating the game, so to speak.

Now one of those misguided random companion modders (MRCM) reads the thread, and is not really happy about it. Not only because he made his companion to work well with OOO, a lot of people are enjoying using the mods together, but also because it's both factual wrong (the rudimentary companions available in OOO have similar, if not greaer problems) and very dismissive of a whole genre of mods in general.

MRCM currently isn't very happy to begin with. In less than six months he came to know that...
- he is a worthless replaceable workslave.
- even through doing a lot of customizing options he never ever uses, which takes ages to make, he's doing no one any favors.
- whole mods of him are flamed for some entirely optional modules, which also overlap with the above mentioned "customizing options".
- he gets flamed for plagiazing ideas of mods released a couple of weeks ago, while MRCM's mods in question were either released several years ago, or very general in nature like bringing features from Morrowind to Oblivion.
- 90% of all reactions he gets are negative up to very negative, like e.g. being labelled a "fascist" for releasing a mod requiring other mods to work. Or just general complaining and whining of people who neither intend to use his mods, nor have tested them at all.

Congratulations! Thanks to bg this MRCM has just met his last straw :goodjob:.

* = no joke here, I even refuse to play any quest mods with escort missions. I wouldn't do the rest, though. And why? Simply because this is no longer an opinion, but actual flaming. That I don't like companions, that's a personal opinion. Even explaining why I don't like them (which has nothing to do with the above mentioned things, mind you), that's also a personal opinion. Scolding users for creating a mod setting different from my ideas of an ideal mod setting, this however is no longer an opinion, but flaming.

Who could this mysterious "bg" individual be? And who might "MRCM" be? I feel like you're trying to say something, but . . .

In all seriousness, I hope you'll reconsider, bg2408. OOO was the mod that first got me interested in Oblivion, but LAME and RBP made it a vastly better game, and Integration brought me back for a replay.

There are lots of modders, many of them great, and almost of all of them very talented. My game has a couple of hundred mods, and I like them all. But there are a few individuals who have something else, some combination of vision and dedication, that make their mods truly special. These modders seem to have a clear picture of what their version of the game should be, and the talent to bring that picture to life. Sotobrastos has it, Simyaz has it (although his mods aren't really to my taste), and you have it. At some level, and especially with LAME and Integration, it feels like you're not modding Oblivion, but creating a new game.

For whatever it's worth, I don't really think Shikishima realizes the way what he's saying sounds. I think he just enjoys the game he's playing, and is a huge fan of tejon's mods (and they are good mods, don't get me wrong), and wants to encourage others to have the same kind of experience he's having. Plus, he feels like setting an X6 level slowdown makes his game more challenging, and he wants to brag a little (or a lot). Regardless, I doubt he sees what he's saying as particularly offensive. Now that you've called him out on it, he's getting defensive, and not helping matters, but I still don't think he's trying to denigrate your work.

On the other hand, there are people who do try. And I can easily imagine how that would get intensely draining over time. I don't have any modding experience, but I have some open source programming background, and I know how much of a grind it is to support a project when it's all tedious bug fixing and the large majority of your user interaction is dealing with complaints and bug reports. It's wearing. It may be worth considering taking a real break from everything for a while. Don't post in the forums, don't work on your mods -- just play the game, or play something else, or spend time with your family. Get some distance, maybe? The idiots are always going to be there, and the not-so-idiots who nevertheless don't realize that what they're saying might be hurtful. Knowing that, it may be that with the distance you decide it's not worth coming back. On the other hand, maybe a break would you let you more easily ignore those who so richly deserve to be ignored.

I hope you don't leave the community permanently. But if you do, I hope you realize that a lot of us really do appreciate your hard work, and will remember it. And I hope you pop back in from time to time to keep us updated, especially if you decide to do anything else . . . you have real talent and a great sense of game design, and if you ever started working on a game of your own, I'd be your first fan.

Either way, good luck, and thanks again for your mods. They've made my personal Oblivion a very fun game.

Well, at last the silence has been broken B)
Just my final say in the entire matter, but did you happen to read this quote posted by myself in the same thread?


That sure doesn't sound like me saying not to use certain mods.

You need to open your eyes then. Mankind has done such things literally since the beginning of time. The majority has paid the price for the mistakes of the few in every civilization ever created. Every law we have now is a byproduct of such things.


Second point, you have to realize that these things are not in isolation, but collective. One misunderstanding is different than a whole host of misunderstandings, and bg (and many other mod makers) have been the target of many (and usually far more vile in nature). Lots of mod makers leave the scene over it, and many more disappear for large amounts of time because of it. They naturally grow very thin skins over any comment that could be taken in such light, particularly when that comment is inaccurate. That's very common here, if you haven't noticed, because of the nature of solving mod related issues, particularly when mod users are so stupid about how they install them ("I downloaded 150 mods, why won't they work!"). It only takes a little misinformation before large, ignorant parties begin to think a certain mod is the cause. No mod maker wants to hear people complain to him about a non existing problem, as most mod makers do care deeply how their mod works for the user base. They wouldn't put in the hours upon hours in threads helping people if that were not the case.


You should be able to see why someone would therefore be upset. If you still do not, consider yourself lucky for never having been a target of such hatred, the way (unfortunately) too many of our mod makers have been. If this were an isolated comment, to an isolated individual, that would be different, but look around and see how many mod makers we have lost over the years because people do not think before they post.

No, it sounds like someone with a misinformed opinion.

No offence...but I do not see how that is a 'misinformed' opinion....

elaborate?

wot??? dude . read his posts. HE ISN'T EVEN GIVING HIMSELF FREE SPEECH. He's bent over backwards to avoid making this thread a place to voice OPINION. MAybe he's sensitive. W H A T E V E R; from the start he made clear that this thread is about looking at these overhauls and how they differ, and not a place to argue about values/ethics/whatnot. Further, he took every opportunity to to explain that he wasn't going to engage in matters of opinion, because he cannot possibly be objective, having created LAME. The thread is supposed to be a useful resource. and it is, unless we start going off into these odd tangents. If someone wants to start a thread about something other than an objective comparison of magic overhauls, with useful information thereof, GO DO IT. I mean no offense, to you shikishima, or to anyone else, but let the thread be the thread. BG, nor anyone, has an obligation to talk about anything or go into a discussion they don't want to. Furthermore, if someone starts a conversation (thread) they have the right to allow whomever they wish into that conversation. THese concepts are also a part of free speech. ANyways, that's ALL I'm going to say on that note.

Now, getting back to the topic of this thread, I wanted to ask: What are some preferred combinations of LAME and SM, and why did you choose these combinations. I'm going to install both (this seems to be preferable), and was hoping to avoid spending too much time in experimentation.

L

:facepalm:

YIKES LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC!!

And absolutely no disrespect to yourself either , but before jumping in with your thoughts you should backtrack the thread to get the full input of why I seem so uptight on the whole matter.

THE TOPIC WAS NOT BROUGHT INTO THIS THREAD BY MYSELF, and IMO never should have been.

Having said that, I trust that once you have done some reading you'll amend your your post accordingly. :shakehead:
I certainly have no desire or intention of starting a flame war, which is completely pointless and I will have no part in one.
Now for something completely different.... :bolt:

I'm an optimist. There has been a disagreement about who meant what on a topic in a thread about a mods on a computer game. I see this as a good thing. It hows how much we all love the game, and how much various individuals have given of themselves to the game universe. Please, people, remember that we have far more in common on these matters than we have areas of disagreement.

Here endeth the lesson. Let us pray.

So, I've been trying various game and mechanic overhaul mods, and I'm not really sure I like where I am right now. I'm currently using Fran + Adrenaline Oblivion (increases number of enemies) + Deadly Reflexes 5 with 250% damage and timed block + Supreme Magicka as the core rework of the game for me. There are a bunch of other mods thrown in there, the only really notable one for game balance being Tejon's birthsign one.

I just don't really like the balance of melee and magic in my game. I'm playing a Nord with the Mage birthsign and Blade, Block, Light Armor, Sneak, Destruction, Mysticism, Illusion (The dreaded warriorthiefmage, I know, but I like having one character to play through the entire game with, instead of just doing XXXXX guild and such). I know you're thinking "Well, duh, you've got 250% damage for melee", I also changed the SM .ini to increase magic damage by 250%. Basically thinking that if SM made magic balanced with vanilla, then if I increase both by 250% I'll be fine. It didn't really turn out like that though. For kicks, I consoled my marksman up to the same level as my destruction and it was night and day. Marksman just blew enemy targets away, whereas with Destruction I could drop maybe two decently tough targets on a full magicka bar. Now I'm pretty sure I have a decent sized one too, because I'm roughly 13 using AFLeveling, and I've got about 170 HP and 210 Magicka. I've got balanced stats and balanced skills (since I've got a skill for each stat, and the skills are all around 40-50).

I'm a good gamer, I've got good twitch reflexes and I like a challenging game. I like the faster combat, though it does feel a bit too fast some times, as it degenerates into a game of who gets the first hit in, most of the time. Makes shorter ranged blunt weapons a bit useless.

Basically all I'm asking is this - Does anyone have any recommendations for a core set of mods that provides quick combat, with balanced magic and melee?

I'm fairly positive I'm going to either try TIE/TRN or OOO for my next character. I'm almost certainly going to use Adrenaline Oblivion (it's addictive, I swear). I'm also definitely not married to Deadly Reflexes. Fundamentally I just don't think it added that much to my playthrough. I don't care about having three dozen different combat moves that have different effects, because I probably wouldn't use them in favor of just the basic melee system, which I find deep enough with the interaction between weapon range, speed, and damage.

Is there a way pick to pick certain changes from the mods and combine them?