It's normal, the actual cost will drop rapidly when your skill gets higher. Some spells might still keep high magicka costs even when your mage is high level, higher than most "vanilla" spells maybe (I'm just guessing), but they definitely be usable (<150 magicka, I'd say, for the most powerfull spells within your mastery range?)

Ooooh, the cost goes down as the skill goes up (and the rains came down and the floods came up♪♫ ...ah, Sunday School memories )? I didn't realize that (this is my first time actually playing as a mage, I practically ALWAYS do stealth characters )

Thanks!
CC

I have a question about LAME. Since installing it, it seems that many of the new spells available for purchase from vendors have some odd secondary effects associated with them. For example, "Flare" now lists that is does 10 fire damage on target over 2 seconds, and that it also drains health on self 50 points over 1 second.

Is this normal?

Edit: Nevermind, I found this answered in the main LAME thread. Still, kind of a strange decision for the "cheap" spells, but I guess it was meant as a bit of a joke? Anyway the other more powerful spells don't have these side effects so everything seems like it's working fine.

Question: which one of the magic overhauls improves the threat level of NPC spell casters? I don't want to use a magic overhaul that expands the magic system for the PC but does nothing to make NPC spell casters deadlier.

All the plugins make the NPC casters deadly because their spell power increases also. SM allows you set how much more magicka the NPCs get. There's an optional plugin by the LAME author to add more spells to spellcasters.

Both Supreme and LAME. (It's a read the manual, LOL :whisper: ) bgaddenvar is the esp that adds it for LAME, and Supreme does it by a releveller. I think Midas might be able to as well, but I think that requires a seperate mod. I have read the manual, but don't remember where I saw/read that part.

In addition to the others mentioned, Mighty Magick does this, by increasing the amount of magicka available to NPC spellcasters, the power of the spells, and replacing some spells in their arsenals with more powerful options. It's great flinging a Firestorm spell at an opponent, not so great being on the receiving end of one.

I do not like to discuss magic overhauls in this thread myself (as I try to keep it neutral, and if I begin to discuss, I won't stay true to neutrality). Therefore regarding enemies and spellcaster power I try to keep myself short. Forgive me.

There are four possibilities:

• New spells only added for the player: These are "changings the rules" in favor of the player. A magic overhaul does always affect all NPCs, therefore none of the magic overhauls does this. In fact the main balancing factor for magic overhauls are not the new spells, but what the AI can use - the default spells.
  
• Making enemy spellcasters weaker than the player: This happens if spells are releveled, but the leveled lists are not changed. E.g. turning the Summon Clannfear into an Apprentice spell, while not updating the leveled list containing this spell - therefore it's only available to NPC experts conjuration, making NPC apprentice conjurers a lot less powerful than a player apprentice conjurer. The Mighty Magicks do this - while they make magic in general a lot more powerful, in comparison the player becomes even more powerful than NPCs.
  
• Keeping the established balance: Spells are changed for NPCs and the player alike, so when magic becomes more powerful for the player, so it does for the enemies. Both Supreme Magicka and an "unmoduled" LAME work like this.
  
• Enhancing enemies: Standard Oblivion spells are not the best, you can create a lot better at the spellmaking altar. Imagine if a mod adds these spells to NPCs. The spells adhere to the same rules as player created spells, but are a lot more optimized (and therefore dangerous) than Oblivion's standard spells. That's what LAME's "AddEnVar" module does.

Which of these would work best with Sorcery's toll, do you think?

I *heart* mighty magick with sorcery's toll. ST counterbalences the increased magika and spell power from MM by letting you do crazy stuff, if you need it, but punishing you for it. Unlike without ST, where you can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, but then can do it flawlessly every time because you gained a single point.

Thanks!

That is sorta what I was thinking of doing but I wasn't sure. Figured I'd rely on the experience of the boards. Thanks so much!

Thanks for this comparison list bg, and thanks for all the suggestions from everyone about enemy spellcasters.



One of the reasons I remove Midas Magic from my game was because the new spells, as spectacular as they are, did not seem to extend to the arsenal of NPC spellcasters.

I don't really play a "spellcaster type" character (using spells mostly for melee support). I am also using MMM's increased melee damage + Ely's uncapper. This means that as my character's level starts to peak, melee combat becomes truly deadly. But I've noticed that damage from magic spells seem inconsequencial (those inflicted by my character as well as NPC spellcasters), even if (OOO and MMM) NPC mages never seem to run out of magicka (so they definitely wont see noticeble benefits from a mod that increase their magicka pool). At this point, I think what I -really- want is something that will increase the threat level of NPC spellcasters, potentially allow them to subject my character to an array of magic spells I've never seen before. Whether or not there are any improvements to my character's spellcasting abilities almost seems irrelevant to me . I want to fear enemy spellcasters, not chase them around like rabbits all the time.

Right now I am trying to decide between LAME and SM. Choices, choices....

Same here Didnt know LAME was compatible with OOO which is a plus and the fact that am a bit paranoid about using OBSE for SUPREME MAGIKA. Right now though am sticking with the magic system in OOO to see how it plays out.

Thanks for the great thread bg2408 and all who posted their interesting info. Reminds me of the MORROWIND days when such talks gave birth to the creation of WAKIM'S GAME IMPROVEMENTS mod :foodndrink:

Don't! I use both :3

Dunno how compatiblity works, or if one is actually doing anything at all, but they're both loading >_>;

As for MM, I justify it to myself by thinking not only does midas live in the imperial city, meaning most bandits, meanies, and nasty people would be arrested on sight (And the guards murdered shortly after, one would presume), it's also really [censored] hard to get the ingredients at a fairly low level - which the enemies around IC are, in OOO. It might be unfair towards me, but I've justified it in my mind, and once that happens, everything is good.

Would be interesting to see http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20000 mentioned here since it seems very different from the other overhauls.

Mods like spellcasting chance, sorceries toll, enhanced spellcasting and others change some mechanics when it comes to casting, but they're no magic overhauls. Comparing them would be like comparing TNR and OOO. Yes, both change NPCs, but what they do has entirely different purposes .

Hrm. I think they are perhaps a bit more closely related than you suggest. A better anology might be G's Loot or Adrenaline Oblivion versus OOO (i.e., some similar traits rather than nothing in common at all).

From what I see, the defining trait of a magic "overhaul" is that it sets the game settings and magic effect costs and as such is not compatible with other mods of its kind. In concept, some of the non-overhauls are more thorough replacements or extensions of the basic magic system, but since they don't have to be incompatible they usually worry less about completeness.

Does it change the stats of default spells?

In my opinion if not, it's not a magic overhaul.

Does Sorcery's toll change the stats of default spells?

It adds a functionality to them. So does spellcasting chance and a few more mods. Maybe they could be called "Magic Mechanic Enhancer"? Yet it doesn't change their stats, which is the very essence why all magic overhauls were started.

The reason why players choose (or not choose) magic overhauls is because they're dissatisfied with the stats spells have. Some want them simply to be more powerful (-> MM's fans). Others want more reasonable durations (SM and LAME), or want to have some exploits fixed, some specific features... whatever.

Keypoint, in my definition at least, is the changing of default spells. Everything else they do are extras. Of course LAME and SM have grown to include a lot of extras, which is why they can be used together - but only because the idea behind their balancing is sufficiently similar (because there they override each other). Try combining LAME and one of the MMs to see what doesn't work - again the same overrides, but heavy mod interaction additionally ("Should I summon an Imp, or a Clannfear at level 1? Hmmm...").

On the other hand the magic mechanic enhancers can be used with all magic overhauls (my definition used here) without creating override conflicts.

Sorcery's toll is a magika overhaul - afaik it regenerates much faster, but it's not a limited resource so much as an absolute maximum. Similar to how Realistic Fatigue sets your max encumbrance quite high for "realism", it's an absolute maximum, not a reasonable one. I think it should be in here, because it's "overhauled" my experience

Ok, it doesn't change the default spells, but it lets you cast more powerful spells than you could've otherwise, which results in a similar end result. No?



Then that fact is worth pointing out! If you don't mention this anywhere, the layman is likely to assume they can't be used together.

Default spells? The ones you get in the starter dungeon? I doubt it. But it does change the stats of every apprentice level and higher buyable spell in the game, plus every apprentice-level and higher spell made with the spellmaker.

I use supreme magika and sorcery's toll together. I have to say that its been fun so far and youre list has been very helpful. I have a few questions though. Does Sorcery's toll affect the staves from differrent mods such as armantium. Also is it normal for me to run out of magic often, even though im using spells my level?

After some very disappointing events yesterday I consider deleting the comparison.

Before I do so two questions: Do you find it helpful or not? Do you share my views, or do you consider all magic overhauls gamebreaker anyway?

Discuss.

bg, please don't delete this thread because one closed minded, opinionated nozzle couldn't keep his bile to himself. I love this thread and often refer to it. It is well worthy of saving. :foodndrink: