http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=812465&st=0 sparked the idea for a comparison topic between the (currently) six magic overhaul mods. I've already made a comparison chart, so I'm expanding it to a whole text now. Please keep two things in mind: 1. The terms I'm going to use are arbitrarily chosen and reflect my point of view. I'm going to categorize the mods into three groups. While I think most people will agree with them, their names (weak, medium, strong) won't be universally accepted. They are subjective, so I think it's no use to argue about them. 2. I myself am not objective. While I will try to present each mod under it's own premise, I have clear preferences and I fear that they'll could show through. Please correct me if that happens, like writing a better text for this thread .

1. Powerlevel
Magic overhaul mods can be categorized in three groups. There are vast differences between these groups. Usually when recommending mods there are some discussions about magic overhauls - this mod makes magic too strong, that not strong enough, and the like. There is no real answer true for all of you regarding this, it's about what kind of magic you're prefering. It's the beauty of Oblivion that each of us is able to choose the mod we like, and this doesn't have to be the same mod everyone else is using. So ask yourself: How do you want magic to be?
- weak powerlevel: This is Vanilla Oblivion, and also subtile tweaks to magic fall into this group. Damage wise magic is about as strong as other combat means, while non-damage spells have fairly short durations - and many spell effects a low magnitude. Which means you'll level quite fast as a mage, and there's a high chance that defensive spells will end multiple time in each combat. This is true for both you and hostile casters.
- medium powerlevel: This group keeps damage spells about equal to other combat means, but extends durations and often magnitudes of non-damage spells. Leveling as a mage is slower, and ususally casting defensive spells once or twice is enough for any combat situation. Also magnitudes of spells which have no real impact in weak powerlevels are raised. A good example of this would be Burden, because what is a "Burden 20 for 10 seconds" spell good for?
- strong powerlevel: These mods do not only enhance non-damage spells, but also beef up damage. Mages become considerably stronger than before, not just defensive wise, but also on their offense. It has a bit of D&D flavor, where mages tend to be the strongest classes after a few levels. Magic is much more powerful than before, which means hostile caster become a greater treat, but playing mages is also considerably more easy. Now if that is a good or bad thing is up to you. Mods raising melee damage may tip back the balance between magic and combat to a more "equal" approach with both high damage values.

An example: Let's take a look at Leech Health, and Apprentice Absorb Health spell!
- In weak powerlevels you can absorb ~10 health points
- in medium powerlevels you can absorb around ~20 health points (which is 100% more than in weak settings)
- in strong powerlevels you can absorb up to 125 health points (which is more than 1000% more than in weak settings)


2. Magic addition mods
Some mods don't overhaul Oblivion's existing magic, but are adding new spells to the game. A great example is http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9562. They usually work with whatever overhaul setting used, although tend to be underpowered in strong powerlevel environments. Often there are compatibility updates, which beef up their impact, to make them on par with the rest.


3. Magic versus Magicka
Oblivion tends to confuse with these two very similar terms. Magicka is what is "Mana pool" in most other games, while magic covers spells and spell mechanics. While they are connected, these two are two very different mechanics. Most magic mods I'm presenting here are only that, magic mods. They embrace Oblivion's modularity and are allowing you to pick a mana pool mod of your choice - like Educational Magicka, Race Balancing Project, or Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. Most notably two strong powerlevel mods come as a combination of magic and mana pool, which is required for them. On the one hand you can say they overhaul two aspects with one mod, on the other hand you can say they rob you a piece of Oblivion's modularity. There are sometimes resentments against medium powerlevel mods, because "they don't make magic strong enough", many times I read these discussions I often got the feeling that magic and Magicka ( = mana pool) got mixed up. Or to put it in other words, if you like a medium powerlevel magic mod, but want to have more Magicka, then there are mana pool mods available. Magicka / mana pools is not a topic in this comparison, because quite frankly - if you're not satisfied with Oblivion's settings, there are lot of options out there to fix it to your liking. And most of them in turn have nothing to do with spells and spell mechanics (magic).


4. Comparison (at last!)

Weak Powerlevel
- Vanilla
This famous "Vanilla" is not a mod at all, but magic how it is right out of the box. I have the impression that the developers wanted magic as a support role, so a fighter can fire off a frostball here and then, buff his armor for hard fights, and the like. Many spells aren't exactly impressive, and working only for a short duration.

- http://devnull.sweetdanger.com/OOO/OOO_Guide.html (full .esp only)
Not a spell overhaul per se, it does many things and it's focus is entirely different, but also includes subtle tweaks to magic. Overall OOO aims to make the game a more intense experience. Therefore many exploitable spells and magic effects are actually weakened, while all other are slightly more powerful. Usually only up to their "mastery" limit, so spells are only as good as selfmade spells in Vanilla would be. OOO includes a handful new spells, like summoning various golem types, but neither new spells nor the magic part are really the main attraction of OOO. Most spells are still bound to their Vanilla potentials, so changes are subtle. OOO also changes many enchantments to prevent possible exploits, like getting Chameleon 100 - although not as strict as some other overhauls.

Medium Powerlevel
- http://theelderscrolls.info/?go=dlfile&fileid=219
I'm not going to hide that I'm the author of this mod, as I've said, I'm not neutrality incarnate. LAME has the premise that magic is damage wise not too weak, but non-damage wise annoying. Playing a mage in Vanilla is for me like being a rat in a lab, constantly pressing buttons. You cast three buffs, and the first is already wearing out. You hit your own summoned creature, and it will turn on you. And many other things. Therefore LAME aims to make magic less annoying, most non-damage spells have their duration extended (x4, usually), summons don't turn on their caster, and many things more. Additionally LAME adds many new spells, especially for schools I found lacking. Mysticism has many new useful spells, like detecting especially dangerous foes, pushing enemies away or teleporting to them. Famous are it's summoning changes - LAME includes many new summonable creatures like Wolves, Mountain Lions, Spriggans, or Gnarls. Also it includes a set of "master" spells for most schools, like summoning an Oblivion Gate as a Conjuration master, or extracting your own spirit as a temporal ally as a Restoration master. Additional features are spell notes, which can be found in the wilderness (similar to the official Spell Tomes mod, but the notes have nothing to do with them) and an overhaul of all premade enchantments and sigil stones, mostly to remove possible exploits. With a full LAME installation, Chameleon or Reflect Damage 100 aren't so easy to achieve.

- http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12466 (OBSE)
Probably the most popular magic mod. Most non-damage spells have their duration extended (about x3, usually), so SM also makes magic less annoying. SM is famous for it's many new spell mechanics. SM includes levitation spells, options to customize summon durations in an .ini file, burden slows down opponents, elemental shield spells work like in Morrowind, levitation, poison spells, teleportation spells, healing spells are hurting undead, and many things more. While LAME is more conservative in it's approach (due to not using OBSE), Supreme Magicka is more innovative. Not only are there many new spells, existing spells also have new twists - you can push or pull NPCs with standard telekinesis spells, fire, frost and shock spells have sometimes side effects, and all examples already written. Supreme Magicka is also innovative in it's approach to deal with exploits. Like Chameleon: Above 95% it works like Invisibility and disappears whenever the player does something, and falls back to "partly visible" for some time.

Strong Powerlevel
- http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5746
Note: This is only listed for completeness' sake. According to Damar (MM's author) it shouldn't be advertised or used anymore. MM has several issues, like causing savegame bloating, and is not supported anymore!
The (in-)famous grandfather of magic overhauls. This makes magic stronger. Much stronger. Damage is considerable higher, durations greatly extended, effect values greatly elevated. This shifts power balance heavily in favor to mages. A couple of mechanics are famous - sustained spells, which don't have to recast, but constantly drain your magicka; conjurer's boon, which sometimes allows conjurers to summon more than one of each creature (so a summon scamp spell may, for example, let four scamps appear); covering an area in a kind of "astral bombardment", and the like. Still popular today for all wanting magic to be much more powerful.

- http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14336 (OBSE)
A twist in the above formula. Magic is also really powerful (spell effectiveness is often even higher than in the original Mighty Magick), but Magicka regeneration is throttled to a very low value and isn't influenced by Willpower anymore. A magicka pool system which has similarities to D&D - a mage can dish out much damage, but his resources are limited. This mod's magic system is unseparably interwoven with it's mana pool system. Many new spells accomondate this, you can regain magicka by draining your weapon's enchantment, and the like. Also some features from MM are back, like Conjurer's boon (see above). Incompatible with custom races. Popular for those wanting a different take on magic than Oblivion's default system, and powerful magic as a reward.

- http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15416
This is a quite basic mod, it's increasing magic's damage output and other values. It also increases weapon damage output. An option for people who want much stronger offensive magic without all other features the MMs have.

5. Compatibility
Only one mod can change and set all existing spells and magic effects, a magic overhaul mod overwrites all other overhaul mods. The last loaded wins. Nevertheless you can use them together, to get new spells and features from earlier loaded mods. While mods in one powerlevel are working together, mixing mods with different powerlevels has a great chance to cause bad mod interaction - means you end up with spells from the earlier loaded mod, which are either much too strong, or too weak. So while it's quite possible to mix Supreme Magicka and Less Annoying Magic Experience, both don't play well together in a mix with Mighty Magick: Reborn. OOO on the other hand has many features beside it's spell overhaul, so you can override it's aspects without much regret.


6. Comparison Chart

[size=4][b]Restoration[/b][/size][b]Leech Health - Absorb Health - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 10 * 1 = 10Oscuro'S - 10 * 1 = 10Mighty Magick - 25 * 5 = 125 *Mysticism*MM: Reborn - *replaced with Absorb Attribute spell*Supreme Magicka - 14 * 1 = 14 *Mysticism*Heavy Damage - 70 * 1 = 70LAME - 10 * 2 = 20_________________________________________[b]Heal Greater Wound - Restore Health - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 20 * 2 = 40Oscuro's - 25 * 2 = 50Mighty Magick - 175 * 1 = 175MM: Reborn - 75 * 3 = 225Supreme Magicka - 22 * 3 = 66Heavy Damage - 50 * 4 = 200LAME - 20 * 4 = 80_________________________________________[b]Minor Respite - Restore Fatigue - Novice[/b]Vanilla - 15 * 1Oscuro's - 50 * 1Mighty Magick - 25 * 5MM: Reborn - 25 * 5, player start spellSupreme Magicka - 9 * 10, player start spellHeavy Damage - 40 * 1LAME - 10 * 25_________________________________________[b]Absorb Skill: Block - Absorb Skill - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 15 * 10 BlockOscuro's - 15 * 10 BlockMighty Magick - 25 * 120 Block *Expert*MM: Reborn - 25 * 60 Block, 25 * 60 Heavy, 25 * 60 Light *Expert, Mysticism*Supreme Magicka - 15 * 45 Blade, 15 * 45 Blunt, 15 * 45 Block *Master, Mysticism*Heavy Damage - 15 * 10 BlockLAME - 5 * 60 Heavy, 5 * 60 Light, 5 * 60 Block, 5 * 60 Endurance *Apprentice*_________________________________________[size=4][b]Conjuration[/b][/size][b]Summon Daedroth - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 30 secondsOscuro's - 35 secondsMighty Magick - 240 seconds *ignores friendly hits, Conjurer's boon, Journeyman spell*MM: Reborn - 180 *Conjurer's boon, Journeyman spell*Supreme Magicka - 49 seconds *killable with dispel*Heavy Damage - 300 secondsLAME - 120 seconds *ignores friendly hits, killable with dispel*_________________________________________[b]Bound Sword - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 15 secondsOscuro's - 15 secondsMighty Magick - 600 sec *Journeyman spell*MM: Reborn - 300 sec *Journeyman spell*Supreme Magicka - 280 secondsHeavy Damage - 120 secondsLAME - 60 seconds_________________________________________[b]Summon Scamp - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 20 secondsOscuro's - 25 secondsMighty Magick - 240 seconds, ignores friendly hits, Conjurer's boon, Novice spellMM: Reborn - 180, Conjurer's boon, Journeyman spellSupreme Magicka - 27 seconds, killable with dispelHeavy Damage - 300 secondsLAME - 80 seconds, ignores friendly hits, killable with dispel_________________________________________[b]Summon Clannfear - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 45 secondsOscuro's - 45 secondsMighty Magick - 240 seconds *ignores friendly hits, Conjurer's boon, Apprentice spell*MM: Reborn - 180 *Conjurer's boon, Apprentice spell*Supreme Magicka - 45 seconds *killable with dispel*Heavy Damage - 360 secondsLAME - 100 seconds *ignores friendly hits, killable with dispel*_________________________________________[size=4][b]Destruction[/b][/size][b]Blazing Spear - Fire Damage - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 35Oscuro's - 59Mighty Magick - 85MM: Reborn - 100Supreme Magick - 50Heavy Damage - 85LAME - 50_________________________________________[b]Electric Touch - Shock Damage - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 25Oscuro's - 34Mighty Magick - 55MM: Reborn - 125Supreme Magicka - 32Heavy Damage - 45LAME - 30_________________________________________[b]Dire Wound - Drain Health - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 30 for 10 secondsOscuro's - 55 for 10 secondsMighty Magick - 150 for 15 secondsMM: Reborn - 150 for 15 secondsSupreme Magicka - 150 for 1 secondsHeavy Damage - 50 for 30 secondsLAME - 125 for 1 second on target *self detrimental side effects*_________________________________________[b]Corrode Weapons - Disintegrate Weapons - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 60Oscuro's - 60Mighty Magick - 125 * 3 (duration doesn't work, though)MM: Reborn - 75 * 5 (duration still doesn't work) *Apprentice*Supreme Magicka - 76Heavy Damage - 60LAME - 125_________________________________________[size=4][b]Illusion[/b][/size][b]Rage - Frenzy - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 10 / 40 secOscuro's - 15 / 60Mighty Magick - *replaced with Charm spell*MM: Renorn - 2.5 / 15Supreme Magicka - 20 / 30 secHeavy Damage - 40 / 60 secLAME - 15 / 40 sec_________________________________________[b]Shadow - Chameleon - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 50 / 30 secOscuro's - 30 / 30 sec *higher spell cost than Vanilla*Mighty Magick - 50 / 120 secMM: Reborn - 35 / 35Supreme Magicka - 50 / 30 secHeavy Damage - 66 / 90 secLAME - 35 / 60 sec_________________________________________[b]Candlelight - Light - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 40 / 180 secOscuro's - 50 / 150Mighty Magick - 500 / 600 secMM: Reborn - 275 / 600 secSupreme Magicka - 50 / 215 secHeavy Damage - 40 / 240LAME - 60 / 360 sec *new light color (yes, I'm proud of that )*_________________________________________[b]Eyes of Eventide - Night Eye - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 15Oscuro's - 45Mighty Magick - 60MM: Reborn - 180 *Alteration*Supreme Magicka - 40Heavy Damage - 45LAME - 60_________________________________________[size=4][b]Alteration[/b][/size][b]Aegis - Shield - Master[/b]Vanilla - 50 / 60 secondsOscuro's - 50 / 80 secondsMighty Magick - Shield: 50 / 300, Resist Shock / Fire / Frost: 50 / 300MM: Reborn - Shield 75 / 600, Resist Shock / Fire / Frost 50 / 600Supreme Magicka - Shock Shield: 20 / 90, Fire Shield: 20 / 90, Frost Shield: 20 / 90 (s.b.)Heavy Damage - 50 / 90 *expert spell*LAME - 50 / 240_________________________________________[b]Lightning Shield - Shock Shield - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 20 / 30 secondsOscuro's - 20 / 40 secMighty Magick - 25 / 120 secondsMM: Reborn - 25 / 360 secondsSupreme Magicka - 30 / 45 seconds *no armor bonus, instead mw style elemental shield*Heavy Damage - 20 / 60 secLAME - 20 / 120 seconds_________________________________________[b]Sea Stide - Water Walking - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 30 secondsOscuro's - 30 secondsMighty Magick - 300 secondsMM: Reborn - 360 secondsSupreme Magicka - 45 secondsHeavy Damage - 75 secondsLAME - 180 seconds_________________________________________[b]Hindering Touch - Burden - Apprentice[/b]Vanilla - 35 / 20Oscuro's - 50 / 20Mighty Magick - 150 / 60MM: Reborn - 250 / 50Supreme Magicka - 100 / 10Heavy Damage - 50 / 30LAME - 300 / 10_________________________________________[size=4][b]Mysticism[/b][/size][b]Superior Detect Life - Detect Life - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 120 / 60 secondsOscuro's - 190 / 60 secondsMighty Magick - 300 / 120 secondsMM: Reborn - *replaced with spell absorption 150 / 30 seconds*Supreme Magicka - 150 / 80 secondsHeavy Damage - 120 / 60 secondsLAME - 100 / 240_________________________________________[b]Superior Spell Reflection - Reflect Spell - Expert[/b]Vanilla - 20 / 20 secondsOscuro's - 20 / 30 secondsMighty Magick - 50 / 120 secondsMM: Reborn - 35 / 90 secondsSupreme Magicka - 15 / 50 secondsHeavy Damage - 20 / 40 secondsLAME - 30 / 120_________________________________________[b]Remote Manipulation - Telekinesis - Novice[/b]Vanilla - 10 / 20 secondsOscuro's - 10 / 20 secondsMighty Magick - 25 / 30 secondsMM: Reborn - 25 / 30 secondsSupreme Magicka - 20 / 15 seconds *allows to push or pull actors*Heavy Damage - 10 / 20 secLAME - 30 / 20 seconds_________________________________________[b]Greater Dispel - Dispel* - Journeyman[/b]Vanilla - 375Oscuro's - 550Mighty Magick - 875MM: Reborn - 500Supreme Magicka - 375Heavy Damage - 750LAME - 150* = Power of dispel depends on a strange gamesetting. Corrected values** given.** = Value = http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/814477-magic-overhaul-comparison/maximum skill affected spellcost of dispelable spells***.*** = Yes, Dispel is a horribly broken magic effect._________________________________________

Very handy, I'm actually in the process of trying out all the magic overhauls myself at the moment, trying to find one that suits me before I take the big plunge into FCOM territory. Ive tried LAME (which I like, nice balance), now on MM:R, next is SM.

And MM:R definitely belongs in the ubermagic category. Holy crap even. At first I was concerned it might be unbalancing, but with the permanent stunted magicka and the fact that anything that can cast a spell has a decent chance at two-shotting me, I'm beginning to see the appeal. I can say with all honesty I never feared Imps, even in large groups, until I tried this mod. Huge pucker factor boost.

Enough rambling, thanks for the information, this should help when it comes time to pick one to stick with.

Along with Midas Magic, of course. You can have my Midas Spells when you pry them from my cold, dead fingersnap casting animation.

:)

Great summary, bg2408! If I have questions about any magic overhaul in the future, this thread will be my first stop! Especially the spell comparison is a great help for choosing the "right" mod!

Greetz and thanks! Darina

Very informative. Where was this when I was searching for a magic mod

Thanks for making this list! I've bookmarked it and will read as soon as I get home!!
Cheers! :foodndrink:

Thanks .


I remember my first game with OOO. My character had a weakness against shock, and my first meeting with a creature from OOO was a Mythical Imp. One spell and I had like 10 health left. The next?

Since that day I respect Imps :blink:. (And that all without MM, too!)

Awesome! Thanks so much for doing this, bg! I think it's very useful. :tops:

A few minor points:

1. Might be worth mentioning that OOO also addresses the problem of easy Chameleon 100/Reflect Damage 100/etc., although perhaps not in the same ways that LAME does (for example, OOO also nerfs many enchanted items to help prevent overstacking these cheatish effects).

2. Question: Do any of these mods also rebalance alchemy at all? For example, OOO attempts to balance the spell changes along the same lines as it does for alchemy. The combination of these elements is critical for making the game more intense because spell and melee damage are increased, health is lowered, and healing effects take a lot longer (only the very best spells and rarest potions give instant healing -- all others take some time to give the full effect, leaving you very vulnerable in the meantime).

2. In the Strong category, it might be worth explicitly stating that it may be possible to achieve a better balance for these mods if you also use some other mods to make melee combat a lot more deadly (nice to know that Heavy Damage includes this option).

You GOT to be kidding...

How is he kidding? Mages could barely last in combat until they got powerful spells, but by that time, the enemies leveled beyond those spells usefulness.

Very nice thread.I was guessing that magic overhauls were like this

EDIT: Nevermind , Didn't noticed that you included midas.

Nice guide. I, Myself have no real use for it , at least right now with my assassin.

But i'f hes going over to the magick style , I know where to go.

I only play mages. How about creativity?
You can make instant kill spells, AOE paralyze, AOE paralyze + damage, Reflect Damage (yes you can get this effect at the spellaltar in vanilla.) reflects damage and acts as a shield effect to boot, AOE absorb... Do I have to go on?

Update:
- added note about possibilities to combine strong powerlevel mods with higher melee damage to create a quick and fast combat environment.
- added note about OOO's enchantment rebalances
- added note about how Supreme Magicka deals with eploits


I feel honored, glad that I could provide something useful .
Noted . (Although I'd like to add that both LAME and Supreme Magicka are much more consequent when it comes to nerfing them. E.g. selfmade enchantments and Sigil Stones.)

Hm. I must confess I have a bias here, because I don't consider Alchemy to be part of magic. There's no way to directly influence selfmade potions without messing everything else up, or fix one thing to break another. As far as I remember none of the magic mods does tackle alchemy or potions therefore. Well, except OOO, but OOO already is far above the scope of any other mod listed . And except the Mighty Magick's, I know that reborn makes Restore Magicka potions much much more powerful.

Noted. (Although I'd like to see a melee mod which allows a damage shift of 140 in a second )


Kidding about what exactly? Listing Vanilla, because it's no mod at all? Listing it under weak? As I've said, group names are debatable. I know of many which would consider group Vanilla / OOO as "strong", group LAME / SM as "uber", and MM / MMR / HD as "total cheat"; while other consider the latter as "medium", LAME / SM as "too weak" and Vanilla / OOO as "bad joke". They're just names . Or my interpretation about Vanilla? Honestly, that's my impression after much dabbling with the magic system :shrug:.

Ah, I see. Tricks. Yes, you can use tricks, design holes and the like in Vanilla. Certainly so. Except the strong powerlevel mods all listed mods do some strategic nerfing for this very reasons. Like mentioned in the list, while it's easy to turn into godmode using Vanilla (Chameleon 100 / Reflect Damage 100), using some of the listed mods, it'll look entirely different.

If you consider Vanilla not weak, then yes, you are right, because for you the magic is strong. That's just a name, because I needed a name. I could also call the categories "strong", "uber", "total cheat". Other will disagree.
I'd like to quote myself on that:

The beauty of some magic overhauls is that they're also enjoyable for non-mages - like through an enchantment rebalance, and other things .

Awesome! Great stuff, man. :tops:



Absolutely.



True. Just revealing my bias again, which I'm sure is rather obvious by now.

I'm bumping this because it has an interesting comparison that may be useful for those who are starting to add mods to Oblivion.

Well you can do almost none of that in OOO.

Well, I think the point being made is that Vanilla magic isn't as weak, in his/her opinion, as it is being portrayed. It had nothing to do with OOO.

Correcto. It is quite the contrary but you have to ask your grey matter as opposed to get all the cheese spells on a silver platter.

Are there some exploitable magic effects in Vanilla? Certainly there are. But is regular, non-exploitable magic strong? Vanilla has spells like "Absorb Speechcraft 5 for 5 seconds" or "Burden 10 points for 15 seconds" or "Bound Dagger for 15 seconds" and the like. For regular, non-exploitable (or not that easyily exploitable effects - with enough brain nearly everything can be exploited) magic effects Vanilla is the weakest of all mods. I think the comparison chart at the end shows this - rare exceptions aside (which are, funnily, usually exploitable effects) Vanilla has a bit lower values and durations than any other mod. That's why I've put it into the "weak" category - because for most spell effects (except the truly broken ones like Paralyze, Chameleon and the like) it is, in my humble opinion, weaker than any other listed mods .

vanilla can be strong, but it gets very boring going through a dungeon casting three different types of Weakness to All spells on every person i meet

yeah, what he said.

Another thing about Vanilla power levels is that the "tricks" or "exploits" mostly require the use of spell making and reflect damage can only be obtained if your character uses the Tower birth sign. This comparison looks at spells available to everyone, not custom spells available only to Mages' Guild members or those with mods that add spell making altars to places available to any character.

I've stumbled across an old quote from FireFlightFlea (creator of the original Supreme Magicka) a couple of days ago. I can't remember the exact words, but he talked about possible exploits - and in the end decided to not do anything against them, because that would have limited all players to a great extend.

It was about spell durations: He had made many buffs (like Shield spells) last longer, but didn't disabled them at the Spellmaking Altar. Therefore people *could* create totally insane spells if they want (like Shield 80 / 15 secs). The same is true for all magic overhauls. Without limiting the player extremely (like removing nearly all magic effects from selfmade spells) magic in Oblivion is exploitable.

That's also true for Vanilla - while a Drain Health 25 / 20 sec is pretty much worthless, a selfmade Drain Health 150 / 1 sec is often a one hit killer.
It's even more true for Vanilla, because most Overhauls (at least "weak" and "medium" ones) try to do something against the most common problems, like Chameleon or Drain Health.

And here you're right, this comparison doesn't look at the potential for "broken" selfmade spells - Vanilla has this potential, and all overhauls certainly have them too.

The question this comparison tries to answer is "how is magic if you play by it's guidelines", i.e. not creating Shield 80 / 15 seconds spells even if you have the possibility to do so .

Well, I think it's okay to leave the player a certain choice. If one wants to create a Drain Health 100pts for 1 second, let him do it. It's a single player game after all. While it is possible to find a way to balance loot and enemies to most players preferences it's pretty difficult to so the same with spellmaking. In my opinion it's better to have the choice rather than to deactivate half of all the spell effects (also because I personally like to experiment with different combinations). One who really strives for balance and role-play won't exploit things anyway.

Oh, and I almost forgot to thank you for this gem, bg! Amazing work. :goodjob:

LAME looks like a very good compromise between the low-end vanilla and high-end mods like MM.

Is there a way to make the duration of conjuration spells dependent on your conjuration skill? Perhaps use a multiplier with that skill level and character level? It would be nice to see the duration of your Skeleton Warrior ramp up as you get more powerful.