They call it a Rune.

I'm not sure what this whole discussion is about. It started out with the question "is magic underpowered?" and ended up with some arguing that it doesn't even require "skill" to play a Conjurer. I guess we know our answer, eh?

At this point, I'm beginning to think that the "skill" that's being referred to by some in this thread is the player skill of moving a mouse or thumb-controls, and not the 18 skills our characters have to work from.

For what it's worth, one of my long-term characters in Skyrim is a relatively "pure" Conjurer khajiit. Jo'Nissa wears no armor, nor any enchanted robes. She wears ordinary clothes while in town, and nothing but a magic-boosting ring, an amulet of Arkay, and the Aetherial Crown while hunting. She uses a Bound Bow and an Atronach (either fire or frost) when fighting. Her fall-back weapon when cornered is her "claws."

There are times when she will throw an atronach into a room full of enemies, and let it thin them out. Other times, she will crouch in a hidden place and snipe enemies with her bow. Sometimes both.

The thing is that you can't cast when you're holding a bound bow. So if your atronach bites the dust (which happens a lot) you have to quickly decide whether to sheath your bow to recast the summon, or to try to manage on your own bow skill. A lot of bosses have charged Jo'Nissa, taking arrows all the way, and have collapsed at her feet. It's a dangerous play-style. Sometimes she has to run away.

I guess it's not the same as the cowardly Conjurer being discussed above, who needs no skill to play.

So in point of fact you are considering the relative merits of different play syles, rather than of schools of magic?

Yes exactly.....but I can't do this anymore....I have said it more times than enough in several ways.


In my view it is ridiculous to say...... "Throwing a summon through a door way and running to safety until the summon has killed everything for you, is just as player skilled and challenging a playstyle, as actually engaging enemies yourself."


But seemingly no one agrees....which I find incredulous.....really


I guess if summoning is your primary "weapon" then clearing whole dungeons with little or no risk of your character actually engaging a foe directly is a very safe way to play.

But where is the merit in that. The courageous valour. The self esteem for you as a player upon clearing a "dungeon"?


Adella would kick my butt if I stopped her getting up close and personal with her victims er' enemies


Theres nothing else to say then is there. I am done

And if you'd said "playstyle" I'd not have bothered arguing with you. Everyone always thinks their own playstyle is best. Obviously. But we were talking about the relative power of magic, and how the various schools compare.


They probably made the same mistake I did and assumed you were posting on-topic.


The sound tactical thinking? The minimal use of resources until needed? The joy of sowing confusion among your enemies? The warm glow that comes with knowing you have enough common sense to not play your mage like a tank?

This. I made that mistake, thinking that "skill" referred to the 18 character skills. This is a roleplaying game. If someone who plays five hours a day wants to brag about his twitch skills, there's probably a topic for that.

I thought he was pretty clear in his first post in this thread that he was talking about player skill as opposed to character skill. Hence my response to Rick on the use of fire and forget tactics saying that I didn't have an issue with the tactic but I don't play that way since I prefer being more active (which is why I don't play a lot of dedicated summoners). Rick is really into the player twitch skill aspects of Skyrim but also really into the roleplaying so I can see how you got confused when those paths cross, but in Rick's defense, his first post on the topic said using fire and forget tactics was a "gameplay cop out" and his subsequent posts seemed to confirm that he was talking more about player skill.

Yeah, I get that, in looking back. And I'm not criticizing Rick for his playstyle

I am annoyed by the "gameplay cop out" business, though. I create characters, and I roleplay them. I make the game challenging by limiting those characters, and I don't have any one "player skill" that predominates. The challenge is to survive and advance while staying in character. If a particular character is an unarmored conjurer, then that character must find a way of surviving (and winning) that uses those "realities."

This idea that you can somehow use a "fire and forget" tactic throughout the game is misleading anyway.

My current DiD character, Ruta Menthri, killed Mirmulnir last night. She's a level 13 "witchhunter" (meaning I play using the skills consistent with that class as it existed in previous games.) So her basic skill set is Archery, Conjuration, Destruction, and Alchemy. She uses no weapons other than a bow, wears incomplete light armor, and does no smithing other than house-building. She also uses no Restoration or Alteration, so she won't have perks like Recovery, or any form of Mage Armor. No Illusion, either, so no Quiet Casting.

At her present level, her only practical summon is a fire atronach. A fire atronach is fairly useless against a fire dragon.

You can't really use a "fire and forget" tactic against a dragon out in the open, anyway. The best you can hope for is that your atronach will take the dragon's aggro enough of the time that you can pelt it with spells and arrows.

Glargg......Edited in.....have you considered that maybe the way you play Ruta is NOT what I was getting at...just because you use a summon in combat support.....which if you have read my posts I specifically gave as an example of not being the 'gameplay copout scenario' I was on about.


Another misconception!....


" I " have not bragged about "MY" twitch skills at any point in all this......which incidently I NEVER intended to grow into a major debate!!!


If you believe with what you know of me, that my 'twitch' skills are remotely 'braggable' then I take that as a compliment....thank you!


Though I would say that simply 'twitching' is rarely enough to play a successful physically active character. It entirely misses the requirements for tactical play and longer term strategy without which death would be swift!


Thank you Turija my furry friend (He really IS a Khajiit you know). Most people are quite happy to jump onto a bandwagon without actually reading what what said....even when it is reiterated!


So I'm a twitchy Role Player.......kinda like medical condition meets kinky tendancies.....ok....I can live with that.


However, the truth is more disturbing.....see, I'm no button masher....more "smooth operator baby"....AND.... I have never actually Role Played true! I would ask those who know....when have you seen Adella (or Ulda come to that) act as a "character" she's a personality true...but no actress. No backstory and her traits are her own (or mine in negative).


So....is magic underpowered in Skyrim? Well not if you are a summoner apparantly!

Yeah. I wouldn't criticise anyone for their playstyle - what ever is fun is the right way to do it. But like you, I rose to the "gameplay cop out" line.


That's the major reason I don't use much summoning; my summoned creatures always seem to be just a little too weak to be effective. Summon familiar struggles with level one bandits. By the time I get flame atronach, the world pretty much ignores the thing. Even when I stick with it and get something like a Thrall spell, I get fed up of hearing "that spell looks dangerous" everywhere I go.

Not my favourite school in Skyrim, I have to say.

[edit]


We-e-e-ell... when you started talking about how good your block skills needed to be to take on three Deathlords at once and contrasting that with the cowardly no-skill conjuror ... you know, someone who knows less well than you do could be forgiven for thinking there was the teensiest bit of bragging going on there. To say nothing of sweeping disdain for those who followed lesser playstyles.

Obviously, you say that wasn't your intent and I accept that unreservedly. But lacking that clarification, the implication seemed pretty clear at the time.

Rick,

Please reread my last post. I'm not criticizing your playstyle. I know what you do, and I find it fascinating.

My point is that it is not a "gameplay cop-out" if one is playing the character. And to say so is to imply that player "twitch" skill is somehow superior to using the character skill.

My other point was to try again to point out that it doesn't work that way. You can't use that tactic everywhere, even if you wanted to, and my example of the Mirmulnir fight was intended as an example. So, if it doesn't work that way, every time, you still need another tactic.

No cop-out at all, just playing the character you made.

All of which is decidedly off-topic, but, as you say, an indication that magic is not underpowered.

Yes, that's my experience as well. If anything, summons are a little bit underwhelming until you fill out the Conjuration tree. And they're of more value to a player who plays at high difficulty, because the difficulty ratio doesn't apply to them.

Quiet Casting is great for powering up yoru bound bow, but I find it to be a detriment to being a summoner. If you quiet cast, then the enemies won't hear you summon your atronach, and if the enemies don't notice you, they won't attack and neither will your atronach. It will just sit there next to you twiddling its thumbs (do atronachs have thumbs?), while its timer runs down.

If the goal is to throw up a summon so it chases into the room and attacks the bad guys the Quiet Casting perk makes this tactic more difficult. Without Quiet Casting, the sound of casting the spell will alert the enemies just enough for them and your antronach to engage, and with a half way decent sneak skill, you can slip back into shadows and just watch the fun or snipe from sneak with a bow. That's what Karrl did in the competition he almost won -- cast a summon and use the distraction to get sneak shots in with his bound bow.

I have found summoned familiar to be an effective battle buddy upto outlaw....on Legendary. It can not kill them....but it survives long enough to distract them for me while Adella goes behind 'em with her mace. Or you could just run away I guess!


Flame atronach is weak once you get up a few levels, but that is why you get progressively stronger atronach types. Storm and Dremora can hurt most things.


Storm and Dremora together are an effective dragon slaying combo....shock in flight....big sword on the floor. The advantage of summon is just keep recasting once per minute until you simply win through attrition. Do it from the safety of a tower doorway or hut and your safe until the dragon is dead. This is the high point of super effective gameplay allowing the player to demonstate their awesone ability to its fullest extent.....so I'm supposed to believe.......apparantly!


Edit.....yep...as I have acknowledged already, I know full well that even a dedicated summoner has to use some other skills at times during play....even if it's just a bit of restoration or using a bow cos they don't have an effective ranged attack summon at that point. Nevertheless....for the most part, in most forts and tombs simply running or sneaking (another skill) upto an enemy filled area....firing the summon and retreating rapidly to safety will clear the area while all the caster has to do is wait. That is the playstyle I am calling cop out...it might be fun for some and you won't get arrested for it but......


Out in the open its more difficult....there no guarrantee the enemy will concentrate on the summon..even dragons....but at least there's a good chance. Unlike poor old non summoner who is gonna get it good!


Hard to believe everyone is suddenly so strongly pro the "summon and run" playstyle while apparantly using other abilities only minimally. The mind boggles. Well I left all that behind with Oblivion.....but there you go.


Oh and....I actually hang onto a couple of scrolls of summon Storm Atronach for rare emergencies


However you play enjoy your day

When did role playing games become about the _player's_ skill over the _character's_ skill?

This is why I'll always prefer Morrowind's combat system over Skyrim's - even if Skyrim does make archery better. Vtm:Bloodlines, Arcanum, Fallout (the originals and the new ones via VATS), even Final Fantasy all got that right. If I wanted to play a game that really required player skill I'd be playing that soccer game with the trucks - those guys have mad skillz.

Yep, this.

I disagree with both of your points.


1. Forcing to take another school of magic to make Destruction at a high-level forces you to make a multi-school Mage. You can do it effectively in other schools (like Conjuration or Illusion), why not Destruction?

2. I have done multiple playthroughs by sticking to only 1 weapon type. My redguard sword-and-boarded the game, and my bosmer covered the land with the arrows from his bow because he used nothing else (well, he was known for poisoning his bows, but that's a support skill)

With or without VATS, there is still a % chance of hitting your target...even when you're aimed dead on. You can contribute this to weapon accuracy as well as the PC "not squaring his cheek".

I do believe the debating, which to some seems to be grating (cheese), is due to the use of two little words "cop out", that is the meaning of which to be, "an excuse designed to shirk responsibility". But from what I can see with my aging eyes is that there are none of these shenanigans going on, but more of people dancing to a different song.

*The Bard queues the music*

Great was the day that Conjomon the Khajiit came to Skyrim to play.

His step was light, his claws were sharp, but he didn't play that way!

Instead he took great delight in scaring every one a different way.

Entering unseen into what would have been a mighty fray he'd call to Oblivion for his friends to come and play.

A wolf, the lady of fire, the golems of ice and storm or the Dremora Lord with a face that would curdle mammoth's milk.

Cast he would his summoning spell and drink a potion of invisibility.

He could watch his friends ring everyone's bells until he hurt from laughing and the bloody smells.

And when none were left standing from the shadows would he step the secret of his power so very well kept!

His enemies, dead were all and his mission complete, into the light he would step out knowing that he did not cop out!

This song brought to you by Bard's Anonymous seeking to lighten the mood in the darkest of places!

Never has.....and you are attempting to create another inflammatory baiting point that has nothing to do with the thrust of this debate.


So sorry mate.....ain't goin' there!

Ok I just got caught back up on all this. I guess I misunderstood too! So ... my apologies for not understanding the intent. ((( hugs all around )))

WOA WOA WOA.......I missed this before in all the furore. Yes DocClox I do think I'm 'pretty good' with shield work (as it happens) BUT my misguided friend that had NOTHING to do with the debate about summon useage. You were simply siezing upon a different issue and trying to factor it in!


Below is the quote you took my shield block phrase from.


It is my response to Sakiri about dealing with Deathlords, because she wanted more action.



This clearly does not even mention summoning and has nithing to do with it


I am sorry, but I just could not let that one stand against me...it simply was not true!

My character dual summons and his in game wife (Brelyna) can also summons expert-level creatures (modded). While I can see from a game-play point of view this may be boring or not skillful at all, it feels great to role play a couple of powerful mage-lords who command a legion of powerful minions.

Your redguard "sword-and-boarded." That's two skills (1-Hand and Block), and a shield is definitely a weapon in Skyrim (I had a character who was a shield-bash specialist, who used no other weapon.) And I'll bet that redguard also wore armor.

I'm talking about support skills here too, with Destruction. Your "multi-school mage" is no different from your "multi-school" warrior. You just have some kind of fantasy that a mage is supposed to stick to one school, but any other "type" can use a weapon, and armor, and smithing, and potions, etc.

Fair enough. I apologise unreservedly for assuming your post was related to the topic of the thread and henceforth will assume that all your posts are completely off-topic unless otherwise stated.

Friends now?

Most of my posts are on topic......most of the time....and assumptions are dangerous tools!


This one grew a life of its own and became rather more heated than I envisaged for an expressed opinion!


I enjoy a good well argued debate from time to time as long as it remains civil.......which it did.


So yes, DocClox. No hard feelings from me


As always


However you play, enjoy your day

I've played a lot of different characters, including a lot of different magic based ones. I'm playing a conjurer right now, who likes to frenzy and then disappear, when caught out I conjure. She has almost no health, so at level 41 even a mudcrab could be dangerous if she were to melee with it. I'm actually having a lot of fun with it. It's a completely non combative character that lets the enemys kill themselves or has her conjurations do it. She doesnt' care if people find her weak and lacking in fighting skills. Her style is pretty devious. Even so she is not a completely wicked character and has only joined the college as far as guilds. She is unlikely to steal and mostly fights for those she feels deserves it. We shall see if her sly ways takes her down a darker path at some point.

Can you just confirm that this is in fact your opinion and not something that someone else typed in while you were away from your computer in which case?


Normally I'd tend to assume that to be the case, but if assumptions are dangerous, then I'd hate to put anyone in danger. Or put anything in danger really, since I probably shouldn't assume you mean dangerous to people. And we should probably clarify whether this danger applies in Real Life or in the game universe. Or you could have meant somewhere else entirely, since I'd hate to make that assumption.


While we're at it ... what do you mean by "tool" exactly? I kind of want to assume you mean "an anolytical technique that can be used to better understand the world around us", but the more conventional use would indicate a physical instrument capable of making changes to the material world. The former definition would seem to fit the context best, but without being able to make that assumption, it's probably best if you clarify your meaning.


If we can get that cleared up, i might be able to start thinking about whether or not I agree with the statement

Just out of curiosity how did you beat the ebony warrior at level 60?