I am so angry. I can deal with the generic white girl voiceover, I can deal with the technical issues, I can deal with the forced-on-you backstory, I can deal with the crappy actually-worse-than-Mass-Effect conversation system, I can deal with everything so far up to this point (although doing Cait's story and having her mysteriously fall in love with me despite the fact that we've been together all of four in-game days and we've exchanged maybe 50 words was pretty eyeroll-y.) So far, I could deal with Bethesda's "our story is more important than your immersion" garbage.

But this? I cannot deal with.

Here's the thing: I don't really like dogs and I'm not particularly fond of companions in these kinds of games as I find they require more micromanagement than they are worth. As soon as I got to the Red Rocket Truck Stop for the first time, I dismissed the dog to Sanctuary Hills. I never named him, I never used him, I don't want him around; I don't even want him in the game. I'd have put a shotgun shell in his muzzle if he wasn't stupidly made essential before he becomes a companion.

Fast-forward over fifty hours (I don't use fast travel) and I'm making progress in the main quest, totally by accident; I walked into the detective office in Diamond City just exploring and apparently I purposefully went in there looking for my lost son? (Don't get me started about how irritating it is that there's no option for my character to not be a [censored] and think "hey, maybe I was frozen for more than a few years after they took Shaun" so instead she has to be a crying woman stereotype going around tearing up and wailing MY BABYYY THEY TOOK MY BABYYYY!)

So anyway I rescued Nick and he wants to help me look for Shaun. I don't really care about the dumb kid, but I guess that's my forced motivation in the game, so sure, why not, let's go? We go up to Kellogg's house -- I already picked the lock and explored the place -- and find the cigars. And then Nick turns around to me and says "what about DOGMEAT?" What in the HELL? Who the hell is Dogmeat?

OBVIOUSLY I as a player of all the Fallout games up to this point know who Dogmeat is, but how does Nick know I have a dog? And why did he just suddenly name my dog? In fact I don't even HAVE a dog so much as I randomly encountered a dog on the road one time and I guess he's still at Sanctuary Hills with that gang of losers (who I am not allowed to murder for some reason?)

This was already an egregious middle finger to my immersion (again, "our story is more important than your immersion"), but THEN, I step out of the building and LO AND BEHOLD, Dogmeat is magically waiting outside. This dog who I literally had one interaction with for thirty seconds was somehow able to intrinsically sense that I might want to make use of his services, track me all the way from Sanctuary Hills to Diamond City, and then patiently wait for me to come out and talk to him?

It just boggles the mind. This whole thing just blows my mind. It's so disappointing and, just, disgusting. If you were going to pull this crap, why am I allowed to dismiss him in the first place? Why give me the illusion of choice only to yank it away whenever it's convenient for you?

I have plenty of other complaints -- and a lot of praise, believe it or not -- reserved for other aspects of the game, but this is really terrible. It's so bad I don't even want to play the game anymore right now. Just disgusting.

Dogmeat is an immortal being that plays at being a friendly dog, but it is actually guiding events the whole time. He's got his nose in every Fallout game. Valentine knows about the dog because he's a synth, making it easy to implant memories. Dogmeat gave him that knowledge. Dogmeat wants you to find the son. His motivations are a mystery. Perhaps you should be worried that an immortal dog-like being has taken an interest in you...

My guess... Dogmeat is an alien. There is at least one alien plotline in Fallout 4 involving an immortality serum.

Heh, this is cute, but I'm still angry. I mean there's really no valid response to my post other than "yeah, that svcks", but jesus christ Bethesda. Even Bioware wasn't this ham-fisted.

This is the best rant I ever read. And sadly 100% true .

Another point: What if you're hardcoe anti synth. What would be the first thing your toon would do after seeing that nick is a freaking machine? there is absolutley NO reason to let him live.

Yeah, that's a great point too! I didn't even think about that.

The whole game caters to the stupid casual baby market. I have the option to ask Valentine "What are you?" when I see him -- HE'S A SYNTH! EVERYONE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT SYNTHS THE WHOLE GAME HE'S OBVIOUSLY A SYNTH WHY DO I EVEN HAVE THE OPTION TO ASK THIS MY CHARACTER HAS A TEN INTELLIGENCE JESUS CHRIST.

There's more, too. When I first walked into Concord I started firing at Preston Garvey, because, well, there's the one guy and like four dudes shooting at him; obviously I'm going to join the winning team, right? Except it did nothing, and then the raiders started shooting at me. So I killed them, and then went inside and tried to kill Preston and his buddies. But you can't. You CAN do the fight outside without using the power armor if you want, but at that point in the game it's pretty difficult to take down the Deathclaw, and anyway there's no point really since the game is designed around you doing it that way. "Our story is more important than your immersion." Previous Fallout games made it very clear that piloting power armor wasn't just something anyone can do, but now my lawyer housewife with basically no combat experience suddenly can pilot power armor and use a minigun literally hours after waking up in a vault? Ughh.

The more I think about it the more I really hate this game's setting and plot. I love so many things about it; I like the new faster combat, I like the weapon modding (although I'm frustrated with it in a lot of ways), I like SOME of the things about the new conversation system (like the way your character greets people before randomly starting a conversation or the way your character mumbles when you skip ahead), and I love the richness and detail put into the world. I just hate that they decided to make a Telltale game and slap the Fallout name on it.

Dogmeat is Barbas

Fortunately for me, I can suspend disbelief and write my own internal story to handle oddball things in the world, so I've been able to stay immersed rather well. I do agree with the story criticism. Fallout 4 does seem to lock us in to a more rigid story line than previous incarnations. I forgive it though because I'm a huge fan of the new crafting and settlement systems. I'm having a ton of fun with the game, despite the lack of story-line choices offered. Given the voiced dialog direction, I think we're stuck with what we've got. DLCs might add some alternative plotlines though if we're lucky. I think it's unlikely that mods will be able to fix things in that regard, as the main story seems to tie in to so many things.

My advice is to try and make the best of it. I've found a lot to love in the game, especially in the smaller side quests I've come across. There is a lot of detail put into the environments as well... a lot of little arrangements that tell small stories of the past.

Yeah, you're not wrong. It's just disappointing after the freedom that we had in all of Bethesda's previous titles, as well as in other, similar games. It's "role-playing" in mechanics only, as the role you play is the one they handed you. This is the same reason I never liked The Witcher series, and even in that series you have more control over who Geralt is (in terms of actions) than you do over the Sole Survivor in this game.

I also like the crafting system; I like how you can take a basic receiver (say, .38 pipe pistol) and turn it into a sniper rifle, an SMG, or whatever you want really. I have to say, though, it's really disappointing how the higher-tier mods are "just better" than the lower tier mods. I mean I get it, they're tiers, it's advancement, I understand WHY, but it would be nice if there was SOME point to using, say, a Marksman Stock over a Recoil Compensating Stock. On a related note, is it just me, or are the various Armor Piercing variants completely useless?

I like the game and am enjoying playing it, but unfortunately everything you said is true.

It's funny how when I played through that part of the main quest, while having Dogmeat as a companion, my first thought was 'Oh, neat! So having the dog affects how the quest plays out! I wonder how I'd find the guy if I didn't pick up Dogmeat..?'

The same way. Oh.

It totally baffles me how people actually care about the "story" part of roleplaying. I consider myself as a hardcoe roleplayer, not as in what others would say about my "ability" to play rpgs but as in "I prefer rpgs above other games".

But for me roleplaying is and always has been skilling and equipping my toon/party to the best and getting maximum xp and rewards out of quests/missions. The story has always been just a sidething that somehow belonged to the game and I sometimes HAD TO watch/listen to or in rarer cases has been at most entertaining.

I know, that roleplaying in name already suggests some kind of acting and story, but we know there is a role playing genre in games and the actual gameplay most times (not always) consisted on killing, looting, questing, leveling, equipping.

Sorry to write this into your thread as you probably couldn't care less, but it seemed fitting to me, since you seem to care a lot about your choices ingame roleplaywise and I couldn't care less, as long as I get my rewards, lol.

And no I'm not an autistic 14 year old.

That's not "roleplaying". Do you know what 'role-playing' means? The part of "role-playing games" that you enjoy actually comes from the fact that historically, table-top RPGs (Dungeons & Dragons in particular) evolved from tactical combat games, and most of them still richly embrace that heritage. You may not have realized this, but that's what you're really after. You probably really enjoy Diablo and if you haven't played it, you should look into Nethack. I bet you'd like it.

Actual role-playing is basically make-believe. It's pretending to be someone else, somewhere else, some-when else. People who prize immersion prize world-building and freedom of choice, because we are role-players. It's why people spend hours carefully aligning a set of 255 lore-friendly cosmetic mods in Skyrim just so their character can be exactly who they want to be. You probably don't understand that behavior either.

And that's okay! And I'm glad you're enjoying Fallout 4. Really! I just wanted to help you understand what actual "role-playing" is, because most people DO seem to associate "RPG" with "killing, looting, questing, leveling, and equipping" when those are really ancillary to the genre.

Dude, slow your roll man.

The game gives you a renegade option in every dialogue which is the one that goes to the right normally. A sympathetic option to the bottom. An impassive option to the top. And a sarcastic response (normally) to the left. And when I say renegade, I do mean RENEGADE.

"Look [censored], that's not baseball." "GET HIM DOGMEAT! GET ME THAT SONVA*****" "Well, it definitely was your fault." "Yeah, that's right. I shot em dead."

Also, cut some slack on the writers. It's not like you can honestly do any better on a project so massive, it's written by more than just one guy.

I don't think you read the topic.

Hey man, thanks for the answer.

I didn't manage to express myself the way I would like to, since I'm not a native english speaker (german).

I know what actual roleplaying is in real life, but was mainly referring to computer/console games.

I can imagine there are all kinds of mods who cater towards roleplayers and also can see the fun in it.

But that doesn't change the fact, that the actual gameplay for Skyrim (which you refered to) is "action".

There are very few games in which roleplaying really plays an important role.

I once played a bioware game called Jade Empire, where it was super fun to play an evil character.

I've got to add I really REALLY looked for games like that for a long time, but that was years ago and there are basically no games like that.

So in a sense the more I think about it I might be able to relate to what you mean.

But let's not kid ourselves, neither Skyrim, nor Fallout 3/NV were actually awesome in that direction. (Tho better than 4, true)

Would you rather travel all the way back to sanctuary to get him? It was convenient, though a bit goofy. People throw fits over the most minor things... You're telling me that just because the dog travelled to you the game is ruined?

Honestly, this has been a problem with Bethesda games ever since unkillable NPCs became a thing. Fallout 3 suffered from the same railroading nonsense as well.

Yeah, you're right, but in FO3 it was not NEARLY as groin-kickingly egregious as it is in this title. It's staggering. I was so disgusted I just ~QQQ'd immediately.

The initial problem was that Nick starts talking about Dogmeat when that name has literally never been mentioned in my game.

Heh, FONV is pretty excellent for the roleplayer. You have a huge range of choices and ability to affect the plot, and the setting makes very few assumptions about your character, which means you can be anything or anyone. Even moreso if you use one of the various bugfix mods that restores some of the cut content. And yeah, Jade Empire was awesome. My favorite game of Bioware's, even if it was just KOTOR in http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wutai.

It was very railroading, but I have to disagree that FO4 is worse. Using the dog as a plot point is a relatively minor issue.

OTOH, in FO4 you decide which factions to support and how to ultimately shape the wasteland, and you can truly join any of them. In FO3, you're forced to work with the Brotherhood of Steel and support your father.

Still only a minor deus ex machina. Every story has them. When it came to that quest my character mentioned dogmeat, as did probably 90% of players.

If something designed for enjoyment and leisure makes you so unhappy I suggest finding another hobby. That's just my 2 caps.

And my head canon is that Dogmeat is the original Vault Dweller reincarnated.

God damm Daedric Princes!

Using the dog as a plot point is a HUGE issue! It doesn't even make sense! It's incomprehensibly nonsensical, it's a total nonsequitur. It's just like if you had never done the Barbas quest in Skyrim and then out of nowhere Delphine is like "Oh, we can get Barbas to help us!" It's literally that ridiculous. Why would she know he even exists and how would she know his name? Why would she think I even know what she's talking about? And even in that case you could sort of justify it by making up some crap about how she knows Clavicus Vile has a dog named Barbas or something; at least he's SPECIAL. Dogmeat is nothing! He's just a dog! Some random dog I literally found on the side of the road.

It's a HUGE problem for the game.

[edit] You know, the funny part is, if they had just had Nick say something like "if only we had a dog to pick up the trail!" or something like that and then let me as the player (not the character) draw the conclusion that I need to get Dogmeat and have him sniff out Kellogg, that would be FINE. But instead they have to assume that I'm a complete moron and do it for me by completely face-[censored] my immersion. It's just terrible.

As far as FO3 vs. FO4 in terms of railroading, I'm not really here to have that argument, so I'll concede the point. I honestly haven't played FO3 since it came out so I really don't remember -- I put a LOT more time into FONV -- but I don't remember it being that linear. I actually seem to recall going AGAINST the Brotherhood of Steel, but maybe I'm mixing it up in my head with FONV, where I exterminated them. (I tend to play evil characters, another thing FO4 doesn't actually let you do.)

That's interesting, and makes much more sense. However, A) this is not a deus ex machina, B) saying "every story has [deus ex machina]" is completely false, and C) that doesn't excuse this even if it were true.

My issue is that this is supposed to be a Bethesda RPG, where player freedom is paramount.

When you start a game, you are painted as being a loving parent and devoted spouse. Then your spouse is murdered and your son kidnapped while you're forced to watch, helplessly, inside a freezer.

How on Earth can you justify roleplaying a character outside of the role that Bethesda already established as canon? How can you spend all your time slaughtering raiders, building settlements, customizing Power Armor, chilling with the Brotherhood of Steel/Railroad/Minutemen, sleeping with a junkie/reporter, etc.. while your son is in the hands of a murdering sociopath?

You can't. It cannot be done. You are railroaded by Bethesda into playing the role they gave you, full stop. Unless you want to play Fallout 4 as an FPS game rather than an RPG, that is. Or ignore the role Bethesda gave you, which is a massive break in immersion.

If you want to play Fallout 4 as a legitimate roleplaying game, you are forced into running the main quest as soon as possible, for as long as possible. No other path is justifiable. None, because Bethesda already established what kind of character it is you're playing. There's almost no wiggle room at all, unless you want to break immersion.

I am closing this for review, as several of the posts fall well on the other side of our forum rules.

And also, let me suggest, particularly to the OP, that getting a little perspective on things is always helpful. You don't like the fact that Dogmeat shows up and that was "disgusting"? Yeah, perspective is always a good thing, be it games or movies or anything,

I'll re-open this when I get a chance to remove a few posts.

Re-opening after editing and removing a few posts... and this is not censorship, for the record - but this is a private forum and we have forum rules which you all agreed to abide by when you joined. If you break the rules, then you get warned and suspended.

Our closing threads to give the more. riled up members a little time to chill, as well as to clean up threads so they can continue, is normal moderation on this forum. As always constructive criticism is fine, personal attacks and rude behavior is not fine.

I tend to just write head canon around the plot points I'm given and just roll or rewrite with the changes.

So far my story goes:

A once wife and devoted mother goes through crucible of spouse murder, child kidnapping, and waking up in a hellish wasteland... this would normally break someone, but she's made of sterner stuff. Super-humanly sterner stuff. This is, in fact, why the aggressors wanted the child, with her as a backup. Whatever specialness she has was passed to the child, and the child makes an easy target. After of a bit of anger and confusion at the start (taken out on many raiders), she calmed down and started to use a bit of that keen intellect that served her well as a lawyer. She realized chasing after the child immediately would be a crapshoot likely ending in a swift death. Her best chance to was learn a bit about this new world, adapt to it, hone her survival skills, make connections, and definitely learn to fight. The minutemen gave her a way to do that, and even helped establish a base of operations to work through. Once she learned that her child was relatively safe and well beyond the reach of a single person, she decided that building an army and vast support network was her best chance...which has become her current obsession. She'll help others to get favors in return. She'll use the Brotherhood of Steel (thanks for the extra power armor! looks nice on one of my enforcers) and The Railroad. When the time comes, she'll put her vast power reserve to work and free her child.

This works well for me, because I'm flexible and towards the 'smart and good' path. If I wanted to play Fo4 on the dark side of things or as a specific role, I would probably lose that immersion rather often. I do often lose interest in a lot of dialog though, because a choice similar to what I want to say isn't available.

One of my biggest plot sticking points was mentioned by the OP. During the intro, you're thawed to see the murder/kidnapping, and then refrozen. It seems silly to assume your child is still in infant. Every dialog that mentions your 'baby' or 'infant' was annoying to me. I figured right away that I didn't know the age of my child. It was obvious that some time would have passed during the refreezing. The child could have grown up and lived a life and died of old age for all I knew. Dialog should have accounted for that obvious fact. Of course, even that is just a small thing to me really. I can just sort of pretend the dialog went another direction with the result being the same. The game is still tons of fun!