a bit of all those things..but id say maturity as to age.
for me, in TES's case, id say it going mainstream in the dumbing down from morrowind to oblivion..twas a disgusting transition

Oh quit using logic and helping people build arguments :slap:

As for the baffling part, it happens with every release and typically includes stereotyping and painting with a broad brush. Unfortunately, I've never seen True Scotsman

Oh my, Thank you guys for having a reasonable and thoughful discussion over here.... I thought this section of the forum had gone to hell. I just started avoiding it with all its polls and silly -I want- or -Fix this- threads when the game is under a year away from release + no new information :facepalm: .


In my retrospect mainsteamers are the People who play games like WoW and COD, and jump at the slightest spark of a long drawn out series... that is my stereotype, those who play Iphone games I guess... aren't mainstreamers, they are much more casual bits that play games on the side and are not vested seriously into games and dont throw in their opinions. they play whatever comes that fits their interests. Mainstreamers tend to have no -Original- Ideas often feeding from each other and the burning hype. their games are pick up and go, beat the entire thing under a few hours and then bash each other over multiplayer when the feeling comes. in that sense Mainstreamers are more socially driven, they care about the game in a sense, but also how they can interact with others in that game. their voice carries significant weight and is what collectively out shines those who know the series. and Mainstream isn't specified to PC or Consoles, its just consoles have more weight.

this can be detrimental for the TES series at its current state (even though it does not feature multiplayer capabilities) there are just so many people lit up by Oblivion, that its possible the next coming of the series could be similar, Oblivion felt so....detached from the series its something I hope doesn't repeat in any form. but we can be hopeful yes?

Quoted for truth. Technical improvement is good, but not on the expense of content. I hope Oblivion reached the lowest "mainstream" point of the series.

very well said.
unfortunately, their opinion may not be as valued as diehard fans, but their coin is the same as ours..but i suppose thats the way the world works.
and about oblivion, with the work on a new engine im very much hopeful that skyrim will be quite a different experience to oblivion, in some regards im hoping that it is alot different from morrowind aswell.

To be perfectly honest, I do worry about it to a degree. I strongly felt that Oblivion was a step in the direction of "mass-media-hyped console driven let's sell as many copies as we can to gamerteens that need it dumbed down and want nothing but hack-n-slash" over Morrowind. They really pulled back to a degree with FO3 I thought, so I am hopeful that they have decided to back in the right direction.

Same here, with the difference that I don't think FO3 was much of an improvement. It was the same clichee story, the same souless characters and the same uninspired poor dialogue. If Bethesda needs some fresh people for Tes that would be scenarists. Fallout New Vegas shared the same rusty engine and mechanics, but the story, the richness of dialogue options and the believable factions showed pretty well that an rpg's substance is not necessarily in hdr, shadows and physics. Those are more important for shooters. You just can't have a good rpg with the story in Oblivion.

Thank you for your subjective input. Now I'll give you mine. FO NV wasn't that great - and it wasn't a Bethesda game. The characters there were pretty 2D as well. The dialog options were more fleshed out, but it didn't make me care about them anymore than in FO3. In fact, less. Adding more uninspired writing does not necessarily equal a deeper game. While a few celebrity voiced characters did stand out, for the most part it was a dull, monotone regardless what NPC you were speaking with. I made it about half way through my second character and lost interest - something that didn't happen with FO3 and Oblivion for about a year at least. I feel The Shivering Isles were as step in the right direction and FO3 even more so. I hope for more choices and dialog options in Skyrim, but I also hope they do it with Bethesda's own flavor. The Obsidian developed game was just too flat and dull in spite of the increase in dialog. Only a few things made me smile (Tabitha and Rhonda's radio program, No-Bark Noonan, Yes Man). The rest were utterly interchangeable.

Edit: Corrected typo

Seriusly, I still don't understand why people are worrying. That, and I don't think you know what mainstream really means. You all need to get over calling any casual gamer a dumbed-down, immature 12 year old.

With sites like IGN and such, you are bound to get the [censored] idiots of the world voting, and if they had their way, there would not be one single good game ever again.
But Bethesda is too smart to sell out to them. They wouldn't make "Call of Warcraft: Skyrim, with even more guns, and Lore murdered"

I bet the next big thing kids will want and demand in TES:V is cars instead of horses. :glare:

Death to the gun supporters, Behead those who want an MMORPG, single-player fantasy adventure for ever!
HAIL ELDER SCROLLS!

Now that guy deserves a high five! I hope the Bethesda devs never become that stupid.

buy that many a beer or 30
good catch

Bethesda has been going more and more 'mainstream' with each game, there's no reason whatsoever to think that trend won't continue
Though the jump from oblivion to skyrim probably won't be as drastic as the jump from morrowind to oblivion

It is sad to read such things, but I don't worry too much.

Bethesda got a lot of heat about what was wrong with Oblivion. I think they realized they can't go that far again. I believe that they will make a game more traditional of them, but it will still be "dumbed down" some. From how people reacted to Oblivion I feel the game will be somewhere between Oblivion and Morrowind in terms of complexity.
Bethesda will most likely simplify some things more than they should, and maybe bring other things back.

But this all stems from a hope, a hope that they realized their fans wanted to storm the building ravenous for the blood of the developers...

Yes they do enrage me.

The dumbed-down, immature 12 year olds aren't the problem... the problem is the dumbed down, immature 20-35 year olds with the disposable income to buy these games and to whom 'long playtime' and 'complexity' are actually NEGATIVE qualities. -_-' They're the ones that are defining the 'mainstream'.

Mainstream = $$$

If a game isn't mainstream then they are doing something wrong. If people feel the game should be more like runscape or wow, let them. The company knows what they are doing so no worries.

Whoah, I never tried to say anything like that.

I know a lot of casual gamers and they don't care about TES at all, that's the difference.

Just saying that the people who played Oblivion (or just saw someone play it) and are now trolling that Skyrim should be like 'this game or that game', are probably just 12 year old kids.

I certainly annoys me. I have seen many a game come out after its predecessor with more main stream features which appeal to the larger market and sure it sells more, but generally it's a backward step not an improvement. I think this happened to Oblivion, sure it a good game but lack luster in some areas, particularly the RPG elements. I fear that Skyrim may face a similar fate?

My greatest fear for the Elder Scrolls series is that it'll eventually be dumbed down and casualized to the point where it becomes Fable. I just hate that game so much.

I'm not too optimistic about Skyrim either. General direction is in to simpler rpgs. Modders will probably build lots of the appealing elements. Like in the case of Oblivion.

Yes, and my wall suffers much abuse.

I sure hope that Beth does not take the easy way out and side with all the cracked out 12 year olds out there.

anyway, they had their chance to pile on the "mainstream" with Fo3 and NV. I sure hope it does not contaminate the Holy Relic that is TES.
(sadly that relic has been somewhat tainted by Oblivion's "consol-ization" I really hope they can fix it.)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the sad truth is that the catering has been going on for quite a while now.
Arena and Daggerfall had huge persistent worlds, random quests, intricate guild advancement and rewards, the ability to purchase ships, houses, and horses, and above all else they were open ended.
Every successive edition of the Elderscrolls has sacrificed depth and open-endedness in the name of "accessibility." Now we have games with tiny single provinces, very linear quest-lines, Bland guilds with few useful benefits where advancement is through questing alone, and leveled loot and mobs.
To be fair the Havok physics engine, and Oblivion's dynamic combat system are wonderful. But even those great gains shouldn't of been at the expense of everything we've lost.
I think the message the community ought to be sending to Mr. Howard and the team at Bethesda ought to be: Stop reinventing the wheel. Give us the open endedness and expansive world of Arena and Daggerfall, the rich story of Morrowind, and the dynamic combat and physics engine of Oblivion. Update the graphics and call it a day.

-PS Radiant AI is a broken mess.