I really don't feel like reinstalling; does anyone know specifically what mods are affected? I can get by just fine with only FWE/MMMF/WMK, but it seems like MMMF might be part of the problem? What exactly qualifies as "non-persistant?"

Guess I'll have to get back to work on my "Project", then. You should see them in the skies in a few days, hopefully.

Thats what v1.5 DID. it was mainly for the VATS fix. Unfortunately they seemed to messed some more stuff up in the process............................ :/

I been using 1.5 for 2 days now, and the weird halting and nutso lag I used to get in VATS is gone. This is as compared with the 1.4 version.

1.4 with camstudio capping a 1x1 pixel with no sound is smooth as silk. It seems like a hassle, but it's really easy.

Lightning-quick VATS and none of 1.5's nasty bugs.

Correction, That's what v1.5 may have been INTENDED to do, but...THEY FAILED (miserably if you take into account the 3months since they broke it) yes the lag has been reduced (not removed) and VATS still has other bugs introduced in the patches that remain unfixed.
Then to ice the cake...the new bugs, thank god for JustinOther, Quarn, Madcat and anyone else out there fixing fallout3 bugs and finding ways to work around these 'console' patches

Another big round of applause to Bethesda for screwing things up once more. <_<

This is unbelievable. How can they can mess things up like this? It's beyond belief. Quarn finds this bug within a few days, and Bethesda doesn't in the three months they needed to release a simple VATS-patch? Hmmm? Those QA guys must be a bunch of amateurs. No, calling them amateurs would be an insult to all the excellent mod-makers out there. Beth's QA's are not amateurs, they are incompetent fools. :banghead: :flame:

Well, this is it for me. I was waiting for patch 1.5 to start a new character, but now I'll just uninstall fallout 3 and play some other game.

Whooa there...No need to be that drastic.
Re-install Fallout3, patch to 1.0.0.15, install Fakepatch and the Unofficial patch mods and you have a game fit to be played.

It is a big deal. 90% of mods that use exterior cells will be broken, as objects are not ticked as persistent by default. I am not sure but won't this bloat savegames a huge amount by itself, if all modded exterior stuff needs to be made persistent?

The only part of my mod that might be broken is the door from Beckett's house and perhaps my companions, I will check them now but had I of made exterior cells, it would be no dice to go through hundreds of references per cell and make them all persistent

bethesda what have you done. this is even worse than patch 1.2 already sended a e-mail. the dlc can wait. just fix this first. this makes the game unplayebale

ill guess we'll have to wait for another DLC in some months, then they will release a new patch with two bugfixes and three new bugs lol


....*feeling discouraged*

Thanks for the info. Was just about to update the game, after looking for some mods.

Awesome avatar.

If I were to make an assumption as to where they messed up, I would bet it would be when doing one of these three things:

1. - Fixed crash related to altered references between master files
2. - LOD objects render properly when loaded from DLC worldspaces
3. - Fixed issue with companion NPCs not loading into cells immediately after player

1 looks like a very good candidate seeing as esm's seem to be unaffected by the current issues.

Yes i've noticed even with the previous version of FALLOUT 3 it seemed as if mods with esps would give problems like crashing to desktop. Mods without esps ran fine like texture mods but mods that added new textures along with a esp like the NUCLEAR WINTER Mod i would get ctds once more. I also had a problem with F.O.O.K. but after removing some but not all esp using mods it worked fine again.

Great to hear about the teleporter door follower fix in the 1.5 patch. Now to get back to enjoying FALLOUT 3 version 1.5!

Well I tested v1.4 and I didn't get the crash, first time I've heard of this crash outside of v1.5... do you have a copy of that mod ya can send me or is it still up somewhere? Wouldn't mind trying to see what the problem actually is...

Is there any chance that .esp-added exterior navmesh is being disregarded at the same point in time that those non-persistant-ref statics would vanish?

Seems like console command "SAVE " still works after visiting the affected wasteland.

I put my stuff in RunningBare's "BusInWilderness" mod, and I managed to move all my stuff to Megaton Player House by utilize this save command, also with the help of Quarn's "Vault-Tec Experimental Dimensional Safe."

Just a little info that maybe help some people in order to keep playing.

How do they keep breaking stuff with their patches? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of making a patch in the first place...it's ok if the first one has issues, it could be an accident...but this many accidents? Unacceptable.

Just tried it, I still get the crash


Yep just tested, navmeshes are affected too. Seem just about everything is... even MODIFIED references! say I move a big boulder outside vault 101 and block the path, upon leaving and re-entering the cell that big boulder has reset to the default position (state) as it was in Fallout3.esm.

I suppose that would explain why I didn't notice any save-related crashes when saving with CASM - it uses FOSE's http://fose.silverlock.org/fose_command_doc.html#con_Save function port of the http://geck.gamesas.com/index.php/SaveGame console function.

Cipscis

This is kinda a mess... I need to explain what I think I've found with navmesh, .esp files, and .esm files, and testing with 1.5.

First of all, I have an exterior cell where I had navmeshed it when my mod was an .esp. When looking at 1.5's characteristics, I noticed that when I ran around in-game and then fast-traveled to my cell twice, my followers would stop seeing any navmesh at all in that cell. The first time in, it was fine, and they were observing the navmesh. Second time in, forget it, they can see no navmesh. I am not sure if it was doing it in 1.4 in this cell is the truth, but I did observe something very similar in interior cells that I had been working on, so I am really just not sure.

Then, I moved my mod over to being an .esm, and used fallout mod manager to ensure that I understood where in my load order this thing was sitting. The load order is:

Fallout3.esm
Phalanx-MainFollowerModule.esm <---------------- my big file.
FreePlayAfterMQ_V05.esp
richvendors.esp
Claw - PowerArmorTraining.esp
Foes Reworked v .85.esp
WRWC - Classic Fallout.esp
Greenerworld.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Increased Spawns.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Zones Respawn.esp
Phalanx-kikaiEvolutionFawkes.esp
Phalanx-PerksAndStims.esp
Phalanx-MoiraSupplySupport.esp
Fellout-Full.esp
Phalanx-Obedient-Dogmeat.esp
Phalanx-DogmeatEnemyTweaks.esp


What I found was - - - in the exact situation where the .esp version had made followers unable to see any navmesh at all, the .esm is causing them to see the original navmesh of the area as it lives in fallout3.esm.

Edit: Quarn explained that the .esm behavior was probably normal.

It's almost as if Bethesda is getting tips on patching from DICE...

If you use a ESM to modify cell objects in another ESM (Fallout3.esm in this case) then you need ONAM overrides in your ESM for your changes to appear otherwise they will just appear as the default as it was in Fallout3.esm.

Ah okay. I didnt' do anything special like that.

Can you think of anything that would account for the behavior in the .esp version?