[candice keenan]

Well then I guess I won't be getting Broken Steel then because I refuse to submit to game-crippling bugs. I'm starting to get bored of FO3 anyway...

F you too, Bethesda.

IF BS truly needs 1.5, then I will pass. Let's hope it works with the fake patch.

[k a t e]

Well considering the fact that mods using FOSE can still be run without FOSE, although certain scripts will not run, I would expect Broken Steel to still work without the latest patch, although any scripts that use this new function might not work.

Cipscis

[Andrea P]

We cannot jump to that conclusion after such a short period of time, lets wait for some word either way.

I don't think this was an intended change, if it was its a pretty badly thought out one, hence the tutorials still reflect the intended way of doing things and the Geck doesn't need to be altered.

I've seen SOME word in the prior thread. If this is not the final word, we could use some clarification, I think.

QUOTE (Gstaff @ May 4 2009, 08:04 PM) *
I've forwarded this thread to guys at our team, so they can take a look. If I have any news for you guys, I'll let you know.

QUOTE (Tarrant @ May 4 2009, 01:54 PM) *
The DLC ya'll developed does not use .esp files. They are all based upon .esm.

The patch made a change to how .esp files are being handled by the .exe. It doesn't cause mod conflicts, it causes the game to use .esp files in a new way, and that new way doesn't parallel the way the .exe is handling .esms. And the end result is that mods made in .esp format have problems.

QUOTE (Gstaff @ May 4 2009, 02:46 PM) *
Right. Moving foward, you'll want to make new references persistent.

[Enie van Bied]

IF BS truly needs 1.5, then I will pass. Let's hope it works with the fake patch.

Well it will obviously use the new command added in v1.5, if you don't use v1.5 you'll have to remove the new command from the script to fix it.

[xx_Jess_xx]

We've proven that given time, anything beth does, we can make better, and anything they break, we can fix...

But by the gods we have the right to whine everytime they pull senseless BS like this.

[Damian Parsons]

Well, I install old 1.0 exe to 1.4 game, us was advised by fake patch manual.
Seems to me- all work fine now, and this is good

So- problem with 1.5 patch dont't exist for me anymore... for now.
Thanks to all modders, patchers and other good peoples for the instructions and explanations.
But as user I have one question.
OK, now I can play with good old mods, which mostly is finished and abandoned, because they finished and work just fine. But what about new mods? Will they be compatable with my game, if will be manufactured under new rules? Or we will have old mods for the old game and new mods for the new one?
Oh yes, Beth

[Ronald]

Well considering the fact that mods using FOSE can still be run without FOSE, although certain scripts will not run, I would expect Broken Steel to still work without the latest patch, although any scripts that use this new function might not work.

Cipscis

You was right- CASM work just fine with 1.0
And many other things work much better!

[roxxii lenaghan]

OK, now I can play with good old mods, which mostly is finished and abandoned, because they finished and work just fine. But what about new mods? Will they be compatable with my game, if will be manufactured ander new rules? Or we will have old mods for the old game and new mods for the new one?

Mine will stay back-compatible but will be developed on 1.5, in whatever form it may end up in.

[DarkGypsy]

All mods developed to the needs of the latest patch should still work fine on earlier versions, although the newly introduced function obviously will not work. Mods developed to the needs of previous versions probably won't work properly with the latest patch though.

Cipscis

[JUan Martinez]

I was talking with eliminster a moment ago, and he verified something that is an important point.

It would appear that if this new change is going to stay, we should put our levels as .esm files. It's impractical and odd to have to mass-create persistant references for, say, a large outdoor area, and it seems that .esm is the natural thing for this, now.

However, the GECK does not actually allow you to create and edit .esm files. To make .esm files you create an .esp in the GECK, then convert it to an .esm using, like, FO3edit. Then, to edit it again, you convert it back to an .esp. The GECK can't even load an .esm as an active file, I don't think. It didn't work when I tried.

So, what's the official story on this exactly?

This whole thing makes the GECK level editing tutorials um, wrong. Shouldn't they add the ability to edit with .esm files to the GECK? They would sorta need to add the esp/esm conversion process FO3Edit to their tutorials otherwise.

Also, navmesh doesn't work properly in .esp files. That's clear to me now. And items in exterior cells have to all be marked persistant, which also isn't part of the tutorials.

For me I think the story is going to have to be; Build my entire mod as an .esp, and convert it to .esm at certain points to verify that everything works as an .esm. I am able to create and balance my NavMeshing just fine in the .esp, though it will cause problems with NPC following through doors as you have clearly discovered. But for creating a mod that focuses on level design, my hope is that I can work in the .esp until its time to seriously test and release it as an .esm.

I will keep my master copy of the mod as a .esp, and convert to .esm for testing/releases if I can do that without problems.

Will that strategy work?

M

[Enny Labinjo]

I've seen SOME word in the prior thread. If this is not the final word, we could use some clarification, I think.

I find it far more likely he was reacting to the news given as he heard it and then suggesting a workaround, rather than giving an official clarification on the subject in just a few minutes.

I'm willing to bet that someone will come up with a workaround and that it won't be the only option. shrug.gif

Was said just a few posts down from your quote.

However, either of us quibbling over specifics is pointless, no official word on this patch or moreover its repercussions has yet been given. Give it a few days, if there is still no word that this bug will stay or not then we might be better able to address it. For now the best course of action is to not patch to 1.5 until (unless) broken steel requires it.

OK, now I can play with good old mods, which mostly is finished and abandoned, because they finished and work just fine. But what about new mods? Will they be compatable with my game, if will be manufactured under new rules? Or we will have old mods for the old game and new mods for the new one?
Oh yes, Beth

Good question, most likely yes new mods will work with the old patches, unless the main esm gets some significant changes and even then a fake patch might be able to cover them. Common sense would suggest any mod that requires broken steel, requires broken steel, not a specific patch but who can predict the future.

So again the safest course on balance imho, is to go without 1.5 for now.

[Kirsty Wood]

For me I think the story is going to have to be; Build my entire mod as an .esp, and convert it to .esm at certain points to verify that everything works as an .esm. I am able to create and balance my NavMeshing just fine in the .esp, though it will cause problems with NPC following through doors as you have clearly discovered. But for creating a mod that focuses on level design, my hope is that I can work in the .esp until its time to seriously test and release it as an .esm.

I will keep my master copy of the mod as a .esp, and convert to .esm for testing/releases if I can do that without problems.

Will that strategy work?

M

My newblike thoughts are...

I think it should, but remmeber that your .esm will load high in the load order. That means that if somebody's .esp farts in the general direction of the resources that your mod changes, it's gonna lose the fight with the other mod and get overridden.

If anything gets changed in your mod that it's possible that some other mod may conflict with, you might wanna load that part into an .esp so that the user can make that part load low if necessary.

btw

that navmesh .esp problem isnt a following-through-door problem. NPCs standing around in the cell are affected, too, and you do not have to have them walk through the door with you. I saw this many, many times.

My PQ01 quest originally had the player going into the huge, 1900+ triangle navmeshed cell for the first time alone. He was going in to kill a single enemy that had been placed in the cell.

If he walked in alone, then walked back out, then walked back in again, the enemy's pathfinding would be fried. The navmesh, in its brain, was gone. It couldn't follow its patrol marker pattern like that, it would stand helplessly.

If he walked in with a fresh-start game (navmesh would work), killed the thing, then walked out, collected his followers, and walked back in, the followers' pathfinding would fry.

if the teleporting-door would fail as they tried to follow me into the cell that second time, the followers would be left standing in the Wasteland cell, with the door in front of them, with their brains still fried (that cell had a modified navmesh too).


It acts like the game takes the .esp-added navmeshes and tosses them down the toilet, and the brains of alll the NPCs in the cell go with it.

......

[Marlo Stanfield]

All mods developed to the needs of the latest patch should still work fine on earlier versions, although the newly introduced function obviously will not work. Mods developed to the needs of previous versions probably won't work properly with the latest patch though.

Cipscis

Is it confirmed that the new script commands in question will simply not do anything and not result in a crash? It's part of the main game, not an addon like FOSE.

If this is the case, it may be possible to have an ESP override to remove the radiation effects from the water types affected by this command, to be activated after the Purifier starts up (which is what I'm presuming that this script command was created to do).

[Cccurly]

If this is the case, it may be possible to have an ESP override to remove the radiation effects from the water types affected by this command, to be activated after the Purifier starts up (which is what I'm presuming that this script command was created to do).

Such esp already present as part of the Free play after MQ mod.
In case of crashes from missing function, I hope it will be possible to make fake one

[Blaine]

Is it confirmed that the new script commands in question will simply not do anything and not result in a crash? It's part of the main game, not an addon like FOSE.

If this is the case, it may be possible to have an ESP override to remove the radiation effects from the water types affected by this command, to be activated after the Purifier starts up (which is what I'm presuming that this script command was created to do).

For 1.0.0.15, we can probably lay out new bodies of the appropriate water with the old bodies as their parents, setting their enabled states to "opposite of parent", then editing the MQ final script to disable the irradiated water instead of calling on the new function, replacing all of the water? I haven't yet worked with the water, but it's just a ref like any other or no?

[Brian Newman]

Well if it crashes it, then a patch mod would need to be made that removes the offending script commands. Maybe one bundled with UF3P. Considering that the OP of the original thread is Quarn, he'd probably be amenable to it. Hopefully all instances of that command are bunched together in one script.

JustinOther: It may be simpler to just alter the water type records to remove all radiation and just load that mod after PP is gushing water.

[Rudy Paint fingers]

For 1.0.0.15, we can probably lay out new bodies of the appropriate water with the old bodies as their parents, setting their enabled states to "opposite of parent", then editing the MQ final script to disable the irradiated water instead of calling on the new function, replacing all of the water?

Wait... so we think there will be serious issues with fake patch, if you play broken steel?

[Jose ordaz]

Wait... so we think there will be serious issues with fake patch, if you play broken steel?

Let's just wait and we will see

[Lady Shocka]

Wait... so we think there will be serious issues with fake patch, if you play broken steel?

As per my previous post, I think it may be easier just to alter the Water types affected so they don't have rads anymore in a separate plugin, and then activate that plugin once post-EndGame starts. It seems that's what this script command does from the way it's laid out: it replaces one water type with another, and all water objects (cell water levels, water volumes, etc) that use that water type are altered as such.

[Ann Church]

Wait... so we think there will be serious issues with fake patch, if you play broken steel?

It might take some jury rigging, but it shouldn't be a problem. I believe all of the things which need to change could be done by disabling a trigger(s) which would be the parent(s) of all the irradiated water, radiation markers etc. (these would be set to "Enable state opposite of parent") and the new water/refs would have the same parent(s) minus the "opposite of parent" flags. When the MQ script calls upon this new function, we can comment it out and add a DLC03BeforeProjectPurityMarker.Disable in its place. This would allow for a seamless transition without resetting and adding a plugin before the changes would occur, if it will work. I'm sure a solution will make itself evident.

[Penny Wills]

just my 2 cents but maybe broken steel wont work right without the patch. the reason i say this is when u wake up the wasteland has really changed replacing a good bit of it. the patch will let the game do this properly u might run into both being spawned at once or only the latter being spawned before u finish the MQ if u dont have the patch. the way it handles throwing away the old and replacing the new is prob whats effecting the .esp things more than the .esm. the esm is prob also loaded as sudo persistant which could explain y it seems they rnt effected. but the true prob is the cleanup command/process i would say. im no programmer/dev so this is just a shot in the dark plz no flames i like the dark.

[Arrogant SId]

just my 2 cents but maybe broken steel wont work right without the patch. the reason i say this is when u wake up the wasteland has really changed replacing a good bit of it. the patch will let the game do this properly u might run into both being spawned at once or only the latter being spawned before u finish the MQ if u dont have the patch. the way it handles throwing away the old and replacing the new is prob whats effecting the .esp things more than the .esm. the esm is prob also loaded as sudo persistant which could explain y it seems they rnt effected. but the true prob is the cleanup command/process i would say. im no programmer/dev so this is just a shot in the dark plz no flames i like the dark.

AFAIK, the only new script functionality added is this thing that alters water types. The player probably will be moved to the "two weeks later" spot after the end game movie sequence is done much in the same way it was handled in the CharGen system (with the X Years Later vids). And that obviously was done with scripting already part of the system. The rest is a lot of ESM/ESP work.

[Emmanuel Morales]

As per my previous post, I think it may be easier just to alter the Water types affected so they don't have rads anymore in a separate plugin, and then activate that plugin once post-EndGame starts. It seems that's what this script command does from the way it's laid out: it replaces one water type with another, and all water objects (cell water levels, water volumes, etc) that use that water type are altered as such.

*facepalm* great, just freaking great... Thank you Bethesda...

Reading both patch notes, what actually added this function? Nothing seems to mention it...

[Melis Hristina]

*facepalm* great, just freaking great... Thank you Bethesda...

Reading both patch notes, what actually added this function? Nothing seems to mention it...

I think it's part of the new GECK documentation. To make use of the command in a module, the GECK would need to be updated to recognize the command.

[James Potter]

I think it's part of the new GECK documentation. To make use of the command in a module, the GECK would need to be updated to recognize the command.

Wait... in that case, wouldn't updating the GECK to 1.5 prevent issues? (I could have SWORN (I REALLY mean it SWORN) that we had an issue similar to this earlier, and the solution was to install the GECK)

Eh... doubtful... damn it, this svcks... now I have to pick, 1.5 and no mods for Broken Steel... or all my precious mods, and no Broken Steel... and I REALLY REALLY want broken steel...

Since we can test it now, can we start production of the patch mod now? (at least to see if it works)