[Michelle Serenity Boss]

I just noticed something interesting, as I'm editing a cell with one of my NPCs in it.

The render window in the GECK (this is updated version of GECK btw) shows you the white body skin tone in these esp-added npcs. I'm looking at my copy of "Gary" now and he's got these bright white arms, right there in the window.

fascinating, heh.

edit: i will test the 'add broken steel as master and let it go" deal in a little while, when I'm done what Im doing right here.

[Lawrence Armijo]

I'm having a small issue... I downloaded a mod that is supposed to make all followers essential, but my RL-3 keeps dying... is there a reason he won't go essential, and if so, how can I fix it? Is it related to 1.5?

[Cathrin Hummel]

I'm having a small issue... I downloaded a mod that is supposed to make all followers essential, but my RL-3 keeps dying... is there a reason he won't go essential, and if so, how can I fix it? Is it related to 1.5?

I'll test this and let you know, I happen to be working with followers and essentiality questions about 1.5 as we speak (is essentiality a word?!!?).

[no_excuse]

(is essentiality a word?!!?).

It is now

Anyway, I also have Star Paladin Cross, and she remains essential, but RL-3 can die...

[Breanna Van Dijk]

It is now

Anyway, I also have Star Paladin Cross, and she remains essential, but RL-3 can die...

btw all follower mods that put the human/ghoul followers are essential are now somewhat more limited. The followers auto-heal after combat and it cannot be stopped. Now see... actually, the vanilla followers do this automatically, so it depends on the application. Essential status is no longer viable for mods where followers must not auto heal after fights.

[Eileen Collinson]

The esmification solution is not a magical mystical wand that will solve everything. Time to learn kids:
1) Breaks backwards compatibility with saves.
2) Doubles the amount of mods in the load order.
3) Increases the chances of PEBKAC errors with load order, meaning modders will be annoyed by idiots more than before. This is highly undesireable.
4) It won't be automated and work right. It is something that ought to be done and adjusted by hand.

You can do that, or:

( 1.0.0.15 + Fakepatch + Lil Boy

or

1.4 )

+

BS's FAKEPATCH + Clear Waters.


It works, it's simple, and it'll keep things going on without checking and modifying every darn mod. If a particular modder wants to make his mod compatible with 1.5 that's sweet, but it won't make all mods work. If anyone is serious about modding, he can go one by one of his desired mods, modifying to make compatible (a good few hours to do so for each mod), or eliminate those that dont work..... or have 1.4- and have a 100% functional modded game with DLCs.

At least until beth gives us 1.6.

[Jimmie Allen]

btw all follower mods that put the human/ghoul followers are essential are now somewhat more limited. The followers auto-heal after combat and it cannot be stopped. Now see... actually, the vanilla followers do this automatically, so it depends on the application. Essential status is no longer viable for mods where followers must not auto heal after fights.

Considering all the difficulty-upping mods I use, if I don't have them essential, they will drop fast...

I personally don't care about the Auto-heal, or whatever... I just don't want to have to worry about my followers dying on me...

OH: I used the console and a mod (http://fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1385) to make them essential (use the console before I decided to use the mod. Works for SP Cross, but not RL-3)

[casey macmillan]

The render window in the GECK (this is updated version of GECK btw) shows you the white body skin tone in these esp-added npcs. I'm looking at my copy of "Gary" now and he's got these bright white arms, right there in the window.

Not a big surprise, GECK and the game itself are just 2 different applications on top of the same engine. If they broken the engine then naturally both GECK and the game will show the broken behavior if they have been compiled with the same broken version of the engine.

[Sammi Jones]

Not a big surprise, GECK and the game itself are just 2 different applications on top of the same engine. If they broken the engine then naturally both GECK and the game will show the broken behavior if they have been compiled with the same broken version of the engine.

It'd be mightily funny if when adding non-persistent stuff in geck, moving cells and coming back, the stuff vanishes... or geck crashes when saving after moving away from cells with nonpersistent actors X3

[Stephanie Valentine]

I certainly understand and agree on the problematic it would be for backwards compatibility of existing mods/saves to switch from esp to esm.

As things currently stand however, is it an accurate assumption that making new mods from this point forward the esmfication would be the best solution? I am of course saying for the sake of argument that there is no 1.6 patch ever. The DLCs all function completely by esms and add just about everything the affected mods tend to add as well; npcs, structures, quests, weapons, scripts, etc.

Also from what I understood Quarn once explaining, what requires the new features of Elminster's upcoming FO3EDIT are changes in esms which override content in the vanilla esm right? New structures, npcs and whatnot that are added by esm can be added currently.

Now I hope as much as anyone else on these boards that Beth somehow manage to return fuctionality to the esps as once they had, however for all purposes I've read of 1.5 actually running quite well in terms of stability (The esp bugs aside) plus of new things it adds. I am concerned an attempt to revert esps back might somehow break any stability that 1.5 seems to introduce or any other function. Nevertheless, I realize in terms of modding, reverting is what would best serve the community.

Still if 1.5 does somehow manage to make esms communicate better and whatnot, if new objects in esms work correctly and older problems can be fixed with the upcoming version of FO3EDIT, and vanilla DLCs prove they can add everything via esms just as well, and also given the fact that only specific types of mods and not all would require esmification, then would it be fair to say perhaps esmfication is the most viable (If also painful) method should 1.6 never come?

[Jason King]

I honestly thought you people were all overreacting, like the VATS thing (which always worked fine for me), so I mistakenly installed v1.5, and despite it not downloading completely the first time, I tried again and installed it. You think I would've gotten the hint.

And then I test the mod i'm making, and BAM, the whole place is missing. What the hell? Don't they test these things?

I suppose it's kind of hard to test for something like this (who would've guessed that non-persistent objects would vanish, but only after visiting them a second time?), but they should still double-check that they didn't fubar anything. Computers are weird like that.

[Eduardo Rosas]

The esmification solution is not a magical mystical wand that will solve everything. Time to learn kids:
1) Breaks backwards compatibility with saves.
2) Doubles the amount of mods in the load order.
3) Increases the chances of PEBKAC errors with load order, meaning modders will be annoyed by idiots more than before. This is highly undesireable.
4) It won't be automated and work right. It is something that ought to be done and adjusted by hand.

You can do that, or:

( 1.0.0.15 + Fakepatch + Lil Boy

or

1.4 )

+

BS's FAKEPATCH + Clear Waters.


It works, it's simple, and it'll keep things going on without checking and modifying every darn mod. If a particular modder wants to make his mod compatible with 1.5 that's sweet, but it won't make all mods work. If anyone is serious about modding, he can go one by one of his desired mods, modifying to make compatible (a good few hours to do so for each mod), or eliminate those that dont work..... or have 1.4- and have a 100% functional modded game with DLCs.

At least until beth gives us 1.6.

Do you have any proof that your points are true with the Fallout 3 engine, or you're making assumptions based on your experience with Oblivion?

[sam smith]

Bug #2: Vanishing\Resetting Objects
Non-Persistant objects (statics ect) placed by mods will vanish upon loading them the second time. If you changed an already existing object in Fallout3.esm then it will reset to the default position (state, as it was in Fallout3.esm) upon a second loading.

Affects: esp's only (seems to include everything even navmeshes), esm's and interior cells are unaffected.

Steps to reproduce the bug:
1) Create a new plugin, place a static of your choice outside Vault 101 (Vault101Exterior) and save the plugin.
2) Activate the plugin, start Fallout 3 and load any gamesave.
3) Fast travel to Vault 101 (you'll see the object that you placed) then fast travel to Megaton.
4) Fast travel back to Vault 101 and you'll see the object is now gone.

In fact this (or very similar) bug affects esm's too. Just in another way. Fallout3.esm's references deleted by another esm appear on second visit. Bethesda's very own Broken Steel is affected by this. They deleted some Enclave soldiers on some Enclave camps to replace with newer variants. Those deleted soldiers now appears even before progressing in main quest.

Steps to reproduce:
1. start new game, exit vault 101
2. travel to dukov's place exterior (just one example of affected place), notice some radroaches
3. travel to any far place (to unload dukov's place)
4. travel back to dukov's place, watch out for enclave soldier fighting radroaches

[GPMG]

i notice the enclave soldier near dukov's place myself. Didn't know what he was attacking. I had went by his place on the river side on my way to rivet city, and when i stopped there to get his key for shoot them in the head quest, the enclave soldier was there. Didn't mind getting his armor and stuff thou.

[Jessica Lloyd]

Do you have any proof that your points are true with the Fallout 3 engine, or you're making assumptions based on your experience with Oblivion?

Let's go 1 by 1.

1) Breaks backwards compatibility with saves.

The mod changes names. Ergo, game-wise, it's a different mod, Items of the mod are eliminated from inventories, new npcs reset, quest and script variables are reset. If the mod added perks, the game will refuse to load. You could name them as esps, but then you make point 3 even worse.

2) Doubles the amount of mods in the load order.

If you transform every mod into an esm+esp pair.

3) Increases the chances of PEBKAC errors with load order, meaning modders will be annoyed by idiots more than before. This is highly undesireable.

The userbase is full of idiots. Anyone that reads mod comments and troubleshooting threads can confirm this. They even PM you to ask you about something that's stated on the first line of the description.
Currently, esms are reserved for DLCs and true master files, files that have a very good reason to be there.
Now you add a bunch of mods that are esm, thus, can load before these master files, meaning idiots will have more chances to get mods loading before masters, heck, even before fallout.esm itself.
Add moronic and non-working tools like FOMS to the mix. I seriously do not want to troubleshoot that.

4) It won't be automated and work right. It is something that ought to be done and adjusted by hand.

Automated jobs must adapt to most situations (and are a PITA to do that way), yes it'll get the job done, but there's little chance it will do an optimized job. Exceptions, specially at lower level tasks exist, but on the esp->esm+esp pair conversion, it wont be so pretty.

( 1.0.0.15 + Fakepatch + Lil Boy
or
1.4 )
+
BS's FAKEPATCH + Clear Waters.

Both methods have been confirmed to work. Yes you loose a pretty npc ai change and the ability to use the new toy in geck, but you have something compatible with any mod made pre-cluster[censored], and any mod adapted to the cluster[censored] will still work. On the user side of things, i'd rather explain 100 morons how to use fakepatch, than explain 100 morons how to convert his mods to esm, and tell them why are the mods failing. The repercussion of this is wide. Average idiot user downloads mod, gets crash, downrates mods and trolls, asks help on 8 forums at a time. VS, user asks how to use fakepatch. You can even make one step by step guide and re-post it in every thread. The damage made by the panicking pack is lessened through the fakepatch route



Now to other posters.

Still if 1.5 does somehow manage to make esms communicate better and whatnot, if new objects in esms work correctly and older problems can be fixed with the upcoming version of FO3EDIT, and vanilla DLCs prove they can add everything via esms just as well, and also given the fact that only specific types of mods and not all would require esmification, then would it be fair to say perhaps esmfication is the most viable (If also painful) method should 1.6 never come?

Yes and no, read reasons above.

In fact this (or very similar) bug affects esm's too. Just in another way. Fallout3.esm's references deleted by another esm appear on second visit. Bethesda's very own Broken Steel is affected by this. They deleted some Enclave soldiers on some Enclave camps to replace with newer variants. Those deleted soldiers now appears even before progressing in main quest.

Did the morons at beth learned anything with the pitt's horrible circle of death issue?. Never. Delete. Anything. From. Master. File, Use. Disabled. At. Start. Or. XMarker. Dohickey. They should be made to repeat that phrase a few hundred times after waking up.

[Paula Rose]

Did the morons at beth learned anything with the pitt's horrible circle of death issue?. Never. Delete. Anything. From. Master. File, Use. Disabled. At. Start. Or. XMarker. Dohickey. They should be made to repeat that phrase a few hundred times after waking up.

They tried to fix crash related to deleted references http://fallout.gamesas.com/eng/downloads/updates-v1.5updatenotes-US.html
But now they got deletion not working properly. And esp's references resetting/vanishing bug must be also connected to this "fix"

PS: I think deletion was always supposed to be normal way to remove something. It's just bugs in game engine that plague this and must be fixed properly.
Now gamesas have good reason to fix this right not just for PC and mods.

[Kevin S]

I'm suffering from constant CTDs when saving/entering a new zone after fast travelling as well. :banghead:

[Rich O'Brien]

Peeps!!!!

Firstly there IS a solution that can be used. To be realistic, it requires a version of FO3edit that Elminister has not yet put onto Nexus. His alpha/beta/whatever has what's needed.

It is NOT simple "esm-ification". It's a specific process which results in a specially-configured pair of .esm/esp files. The .esp can be placed in the load order to facilitate the load order needs, and the .esm lives anywhere it wants to.

It works to fix ALL the issues.

BUT, it's not a solution that people will want to move to unless we're SURE things are going to stay this way, because as the GECK works right now, its a much bigger pain in the ass to work with than the former setup (which was a simple .esp file).

Tarrant,

I've held-off on the Tutorial for Elminster's new FO3Edit (I have the latest) per your recommendation until we had things more sorted out with the effects/impacts/possibilities of v1.5.

Should I start making the Tutorial at this point?

M

[asako]

Tarrant,

I've held-off on the Tutorial for Elminster's new FO3Edit (I have the latest) per your recommendation until we had things more sorted out with the effects/impacts/possibilities of v1.5.

Should I start making the Tutorial at this point?

M

I have wondered that myself.....

The first thread has a start date of May 3rd and its now May 10th. It's only been a week but it sure feels like longer, doesn't it.

I recently sent a message to one moderator asking for like, some more details so that we can decide what to do. The message was then forwarded to another moderator. So now I am wondering if we'll get some feedback soon.

I'd say at least hold off until there's been a business day for that last message to get received and thought about. Having the tutorial there doesn't force anyone to jump the gun and start switching, of course. I'm personally still waiting a bit longer before tearing Phalanx into 2 for good.

That version of FO3edit needs to go public too, before the instructions in the tutorial will work well enough... we goan need to poke elminister and see what's up with that if it comes time to release your tutorial.

[Shirley BEltran]

I have wondered that myself.....

The first thread has a start date of May 3rd and its now May 10th. It's only been a week but it sure feels like longer, doesn't it.

I recently sent a message to one moderator asking for like, some more details so that we can decide what to do. The message was then forwarded to another moderator. So now I am wondering if we'll get some feedback soon.

I'd say at least hold off until there's been a business day for that last message to get received and thought about. Having the tutorial there doesn't force anyone to jump the gun and start switching, of course. I'm personally still waiting a bit longer before tearing Phalanx into 2 for good.

That version of FO3edit needs to go public too, before the instructions in the tutorial will work well enough... we goan need to poke elminister and see what's up with that if it comes time to release your tutorial.

Good deal, thanks for the heads-up. I agree it feels like it's been alot longer.

I'll keep working on my mod and the NavMesh tutorial I started for now.

Given the podcast from Todd Howard on Friday, and sensing/listening to the frustration he (and his crew) had over the issues with the release of Broken Steel (the DLC issues) has given them some serious stress. I can sympathize - your team/crew puts in a ton of hours, time and effort into what is supposed to be a Grand Finale of DLC's and releases for Fallout3 (new DLC, new Patch, new GECK) - and the thunder is crushed to silence by problems and bugs.

I would go so far as to say they are probably Just as frustrated (if not much moreso) than we are over the issues. I'm just glad they are willing to listen and help as much as they can, and that we here are already close to work-arounds!

M

[Queen Bitch]

Good deal, thanks for the heads-up. I agree it feels like it's been alot longer.

I'll keep working on my mod and the NavMesh tutorial I started for now.

Given the podcast from Todd Howard on Friday, and sensing/listening to the frustration he (and his crew) had over the issues with the release of Broken Steel (the DLC issues) has given them some serious stress. I can sympathize - your team/crew puts in a ton of hours, time and effort into what is supposed to be a Grand Finale of DLC's and releases for Fallout3 (new DLC, new Patch, new GECK) - and the thunder is crushed to silence by problems and bugs.

I would go so far as to say they are probably Just as frustrated (if not much moreso) than we are over the issues. I'm just glad they are willing to listen and help as much as they can, and that we here are already close to work-arounds!

M

I didn't know there was a podcast thingie :/ . It's sad if they are like, frustrated and stuff because of the goofy incidents at broken steel's release. Broken steel is actually quite nice in itself, I commented about some of it in my WIPz thread. They did more than I expected to see, and things in it are cool. I honestly like virtually all of it, so much so that I'm tempted to design my PQ01 - PQ-?? primarily for that environment and then allow loose compatibility with Free-Play-After-MQ.

I want them to feel supported, not beat up. :/

When I say virtually all - - the one and only thing that has me wondering - - the Tesla Cannon seems like it could be overpowered. * shrugs *. I'll need to cross that bridge when I come to it in PQ01, there should be things I can do to nerf its power due to the design of my custom enemies (without actually touching the weapon).

[Dominic Vaughan]

I didn't know there was a podcast thingie :/

Yeah it was actually a Very nice podcast from my perspective, because it showed a much more Human side to the Bethesda crew and did alot to aleviate my concerns.

When things go bad, sometimes all that is needed is for the customers (us) to know that Bethesda is frustrated by it too. It shows they do care, alot, even if they can't respond to every thread saying so.

The podcast is http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=988577&hl=, start at 22:00 or you'll go insane listening to the host (I wanted to shove a NukaGrenade down his throat by the end). Todd's commentary was excellent however.

But I digress, back to the matter at hand - I'll stand ready on that Tutorial and will probably start doing the image-workup while we wait. I can't write the scripting engine as I code in C on UNIX, and am not much good in windows.

M

[TWITTER.COM]

Don't know if this is listed, but if you return to the Jefferson Memorial Rotunda, you cannot exit, the doors "lock behind you" just like in the end of take it back.
No way that I personally know of to exit that room once you enter it.

[Angel Torres]

Just a heads up, FO3Edit 2.3.0 EXPERIMENTAL has just been http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=973747&view=findpost&p=14309949 which contains the code to automatically populate ONAM subrecords in the file header when saving ESM's.

[sophie]

Just a heads up, FO3Edit 2.3.0 EXPERIMENTAL has just been http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=973747&view=findpost&p=14309949 which contains the code to automatically populate ONAM subrecords in the file header when saving ESM's.

Thanks for the hard work Eliminster. In regards to saving ESMs, does that change give FO3Edit the same functionality as the FO3Plugin program?