[Adam]

Thanks for the hard work Eliminster. In regards to saving ESMs, does that change give FO3Edit the same functionality as the FO3Plugin program?

I'm not sure what exactly FO3Plugin does, but when you save an ESM (by setting the flag in the file header) in FO3Edit now it will build the required ONAM subrecord(s) in the file header resulting in a fully functional ESM (according to the header flag, not the file extension, the file extension has no meaning for GECK or the game engine, only the header flag is relevant).

[Alexandra Louise Taylor]

Unconfirmed report that a new patch is in the pipeline. Waiting on a source for that information.

http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=122346&pid=1029943

[celebrity]

Unconfirmed report that a new patch is in the pipeline. Waiting on a source for that information.

http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=122346&pid=1029943

Hopefully there's a source to that information and its not just blind faith or speculation.

[Kayla Keizer]

Hopefully there's a source to that information and its not just blind faith or speculation.

The wording was:

"We are currently working on a patch for all three platforms," wrote a Bethesda community manager. "When I've got more details, I'll let everyone know."

I feel like I recognize the writing style on that, and the person it sounds like matches the description of the person...

It's true that I do not particularly recognize the poster in that forum (overload1977) but considering that I recognize the writing style on the indicated Bethesda quote, either this guy is telling the truth about what he has been told, or, he's doing a very deliberate hoax. And his profile and history on that board isn't suggesting to me that he's a hoaxer.

Edit: It could also be an older piece of information that's been misread. Supposedly the source is on a bethblog entry somewhere. I can't find it.

[Abel Vazquez]

Edit: It could also be an older post that's been misread.....

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=913399&st=0&p=13270072&#entry13270072

[Mrs shelly Sugarplum]

Crap!!! I think this may be the poster not noticing the date on this article.


http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3171464

edit: I've actually reported that thread to a Nexus moderator. I suspect the poster must have meant well but was terribly mistaken, and the info is too misleading to allow to stand with that topic IMO :/ . I'm presuming that the OP cannot edit the misleading topic.

[Brian LeHury]

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=913399&st=0&p=13270072&#entry13270072

Ah, from November 20th, 2008, about six months ago. Old news is so exciting. heh.

[Nathan Risch]

Please, in the next thread, could someone summarise the fixes as well as the problems, with the pros and cons of each?

i.e. "setting every reference to persistent" (interior cells? exterior cells? both?) - pros and cons
"changing file to an .esm" - pros and cons
"something different and more complicated" - pros and cons

I'm sure that I'm not the only person who is confused by all of the conflicting advice.

I am also sure I'm not the only person who is reluctant to jettison a perfectly adequate official patch (other than the mod issue) in favour of an unofficial patch. I'd really need to be persuaded that that was the best way forward.

And then I test the mod i'm making, and BAM, the whole place is missing. What the hell? Don't they test these things?

With mods? No.

They explicitly said that they do not test patches with mods and that the GECK is "unsupported" (see gstaff's posts). If we want to solve this, we have to look amongst ourselves for a solution.

It's the sort of thing that I foresee ending up as a community-made tool - just as TESTool came out to fix the problems with mods introduced by the release of Tribunal/Bloodmoon (72 GMST-related errors).

[Avril Louise]

I think a summary would help, if someone could possibly do it from an unbiased viewpoint, which might be hard to find on this issue specifically but I digress.

I am also sure I'm not the only person who is reluctant to jettison a perfectly adequate official patch (other than the mod issue) in favour of an unofficial patch. I'd really need to be persuaded that that was the best way forward.

You see, a patch is optional content you are adding to your program. I don't see it as jettisoning anything to either use an unofficial patch or not use any patch, it is making a choice, that is all.

It's the sort of thing that I foresee ending up as a community-made tool - just as TESTool came out to fix the problems with mods introduced by the release of Tribunal/Bloodmoon (72 GMST-related errors).

That is what was being attempted with the fakepatch, a solution that would allow people to keep using all the currently existing mods, as well as patch Masterfiles with esps so people don't get conflict errors in the future.

Now if we could patch ESMs with ESPs and somehow still get around this bug, I would probably have your viewpoint but ultimately running lots of ESMs and making a mod compatible with others is going to be a nightmare at some stage. If I go to an ESM format, I can see myself releasing about a dozen versions of SubCity for instance :banghead:

Before someone stamps on this viewpoint, with the venom some have, if you don't run many mods at all then you won't experience it.

[Ally Chimienti]

Here something everybody can try out to see, that converting to ESM dont solve all problems:

1. Open Megaton in GECK
2. Find a Door, that requires a key to be unlocked.
3. Set this Door as open without Key-Requirement
4. Save your Plugin and convert into Master
5. Go into your game...

Oh... the door is still marked as locked...
Ok, find the key and open it...
Now go outside and try enter it again...

Suprise, the door is locked again.

Great isnt it?

Esmification dont work at all, if your ESM change something inside another ESM Worldspace.
It only works, if you create a entire new Worldspace without change on existing Worldspaces.

Also a Side-Note for marking Objects as persistent:

Persistent Objects are saved in your Savegame.
Now build a City and mark all Objects of it as persistent.
Now go into Game... Fine, your Objects dont disappear.

Now load 20 other Mods with a lot of persistent object references.
What you think will happen to your savegame-size?
And are you aware about, that the Engine starts bugging if a Savegame increases its size too much?
In Oblivion it was around 10 mb, dont know for Fallout.

[josh evans]

Please, in the next thread, could someone summarise the fixes as well as the problems, with the pros and cons of each?

i.e. "setting every reference to persistent" (interior cells? exterior cells? both?) - pros and cons
"changing file to an .esm" - pros and cons
"something different and more complicated" - pros and cons

I'm sure that I'm not the only person who is confused by all of the conflicting advice.

I am also sure I'm not the only person who is reluctant to jettison a perfectly adequate official patch (other than the mod issue) in favour of an unofficial patch. I'd really need to be persuaded that that was the best way forward.

They explicitly said that they do not test patches with mods and that the GECK is "unsupported" (see gstaff's posts). If we want to solve this, we have to look amongst ourselves for a solution.

It's the sort of thing that I foresee ending up as a community-made tool - just as TESTool came out to fix the problems with mods introduced by the release of Tribunal/Bloodmoon (72 GMST-related errors).

Good morning

I believe that a new thread is due as well, and that there is hope on the horizon. I am one of the modders directly affected by the exterior-cell/persistent item issue and am going to work with ElminsterAU and Tarrant on a tutorial for the solution (at least one possible solution).

ESP/ESM Method:

ElminsterAU walked Tarrant through the process of converting an ESP-only mod into an ESM/ESP combo. The Pros are that it worked, solving the main game-crashing issues. The Cons are that it is not a process for the meek, though simple it requires to use of FO3Edit and would definitely be difficult to get All modders to adhere to. While this works, we are way too far into the game (almost 6 months now for the GECK) and there are too many mods done. Elminster pointed out another Con in that splitting the mods would reduce the maximum-possible number of mods from 255 down to 126 - which for most people is not a huge issue, but remember Oblivion - given another year it may be limiting.

If this is the only path, some will do it but I think most modders will opt for the FakePatch options and avoid v1.5. I'm glad this option is available, but the we need a better, more standard way.

All-ESM Method:

One method ElminsterAU described to me (but is not 100% sure about, pending some information gathering) is to convert all mods into ESMs, specifically to have all mods with the ESM flag set - and then to use a custom Script and FOMM to automate the process. Pros: The method would be Standardized and would apply to all mods that get loaded, meaning that the hundreds of mod authors would not all have to try and follow a process. Anther Pro (if possible and if Timeslip agrees) would be using FOMM to launch the script, as most people that use mods also use FOMM (or are not horribly opposed to it). This would provide a standard delivery vehicle for Elminster's script, and (if it works out) would streamline the ESM conversion and load-order process.

The Con is that we don't know (yet?) if it will work, and it will take some code time on Elminster's part to write the script and/or FO3Edit work, and work on Timeslip's part to incorporate it into FOMM. I will write a tutorial for them if this ends up being the method, I already have a start to FOMM - but the really hard part would be on those two gentlemen. Elminster also mentioned this might change the load-order for mods, which could be a Con but we'll have to see.

This in my view would be the ideal path around the save/crash problems with v1.5, but we'll have to see if it can be done or if there are unforseen road-blocks that may gum it up.

All-Persistent Object Method:

This is the most brutal method, and the least favorable in my view. In my mod alone, the exterior cell thus far contains ~7,000 references spread-out around the business-district (think Mason District-size) and alot of it clutter items and other stuff that would all have to be made persistent By Hand. Pro's are that the method would technically work without any extra code modification to support v1.5.

Con's are that it would Hugely bloat the size of save-games, maybe to the point of the size causing issues with the game. Another Con is that most modders will chafe at the amount of work it would require to make everything persistent, and alot of modders wont - which will nullify their work. Another Con is that this doesn't address the other issues.

Thats my rough-list, though I'm sure Tarrant, Elminster or maran will have more to add as well as we progress through this.

M

[Gavin boyce]

4. Save your Plugin and convert into Master

HOW did you do this conversion?

It requires MORE then just setting the ESM flag in the file header to turn a plugin into a master.

You HAVE to build an ONAM subrecord in the file header which lists all overriden records from other masters containend in this master.

With that ONAM subrecord in place, the game engine should correctly take into account your modifications.

[Roanne Bardsley]

HOW did you do this conversion?

It requires MORE then just setting the ESM flag in the file header to turn a plugin into a master.

You HAVE to build an ONAM subrecord in the file header which lists all overriden records from other masters containend in this master.

With that ONAM subrecord in place, the game engine should correctly take into account your modifications.

I always did it with FOMM.
If this isnt enough, were can I find a tutorial to add such a ONAM subrecord?

Because I really want use 1.5, it fixes several flaws with Worldspace LOD and Savegame crashing, when disable mods
(many of them add invisible perks or whatever. With 1.5 I was able to load my savegame without mods, while I had more than 100 enabled before)
So, if there is a quick and easy solution converting Files into real Masterfiles, I can do it for personal use for mods I want use,
but just FOMM converting doesnt work at the moment. So how?

[Kat Stewart]

Here something everybody can try out to see, that converting to ESM dont solve all problems:

1. Open Megaton in GECK
2. Find a Door, that requires a key to be unlocked.
3. Set this Door as open without Key-Requirement
4. Save your Plugin and convert into Master
5. Go into your game...

Oh... the door is still marked as locked...
Ok, find the key and open it...
Now go outside and try enter it again...

Suprise, the door is locked again.

Great isnt it?

So the land bug with ESMs from previous titles, is still present in fallout 3? I had feared it would be, only rather than crash your game it just removes the content?

Can someone else confirm this? As I really don't want to break my savegame again to find out. If so then ESM's are going to have their own problems with references anyway and that needs to be addressed in any solution.

Also does this afflict interior cells the same way, if so then it will be disastrous for compatibility.

[Jeremy Kenney]

I have tested the bug in 1.4 on a Megaton door and the door won't even lock in the first place... my guess is they tried but didn't fully fix Master references in 1.5. I went back to double check the door in the geck and it states it is locked but in the game it is unlocked.

Masters are still broken then, in this respect unless someone else can test 1.5 and tell me they are working?

I am sure there is more to it, I could start a thread about ESM bugs if it would help, as they are reported? But there seems little point converting thousands of esps to esms if they are all going to overwrite each other (if they touch the same cell)

-edit
I will retest this a few times with different doors and such, then I can try NPCs but as I am testing 1.4, 1.5 testing would be appreciated.

[Baby K(:]

You see, a patch is optional content you are adding to your program. I don't see it as jettisoning anything to either use an unofficial patch or not use any patch, it is making a choice, that is all.

That's a good point

That is what was being attempted with the fakepatch, a solution that would allow people to keep using all the currently existing mods, as well as patch Masterfiles with esps so people don't get conflict errors in the future.

OK. I suppose I worry that people are going to end up using two totally different methodologies and that mods will only work with whatever methodology you're using?

Before someone stamps on this viewpoint, with the venom some have, if you don't run many mods at all then you won't experience it.

Well, that's my thing - I'm only using a dozen or so mods, of which most are small houses which I can pretty much take or leave.

ElminsterAU walked Tarrant through the process of converting an ESP-only mod into an ESM/ESP combo. The Pros are that it worked, solving the main game-crashing issues. The Cons are that it is not a process for the meek, though simple it requires to use of FO3Edit and would definitely be difficult to get All modders to adhere to.

Again, the whole idea frightens the life out of me. :cold:

While this works, we are way too far into the game (almost 6 months now for the GECK) and there are too many mods done

I don't think that's so much of an issue, if you think about it. I mean, I'm using almost no mods now that I used from 6 months after Oblivion's release, and none whatsoever from Morrowind's first year or two. Every single mod has been superceded either by the modder themselves or by new mods by other people, but I certainly think we're early enough in Fallout 3's development to assume that none of us will be using in a year's time the mods we are using now. Even of the first four or five mods I made for Oblivion, I plan to remake them all. I certainly don't think I've made any real "keepers" for Fallout 3 yet. The only one I'm quite attached to is Big Blue House, which took over a month to make - but I suppose I could make it again from scratch if I needed to.

However, I think the only things that might cause a problem are the interior navmeshes (though they're very small cells), and the exterior decorations, of which there are only a handful. I could certainly make every exterior decoration persistent with no impact whatsoever on framerates.

All-Persistent Object Method:

This is the most brutal method, and the least favorable in my view. In my mod alone, the exterior cell thus far contains ~7,000 references spread-out around the business-district (think Mason District-size) and alot of it clutter items and other stuff that would all have to be made persistent By Hand. Pro's are that the method would technically work without any extra code modification to support v1.5.

OK, so what if it wasn't 7000 references? What if it was ... 7? In some cases, it's only 1 or 2 - a front door and that's it. Making that persistent should have almost zero impact on the world (like adding an NPC in Morrowind or Oblivion - which are persistent by default) - it's only when you have 30 in one cell that it causes issues. Would the all-persistent method be OK for house mods?

In the next thread, I'd also appreciate an update on possible issues with navmeshes. If the all-persistent method turns out to be OK for the sort of mods I make, then I guess my next question would be whether if just ticking those boxes would fix all my problems?

[Kit Marsden]

I don't think that's so much of an issue, if you think about it. I mean, I'm using almost no mods now that I used from 6 months after Oblivion's release, and none whatsoever from Morrowind's first year or two. Every single mod has been superceded either by the modder themselves or by new mods by other people, but I certainly think we're early enough in Fallout 3's development to assume that none of us will be using in a year's time the mods we are using now. Even of the first four or five mods I made for Oblivion, I plan to remake them all. I certainly don't think I've made any real "keepers" for Fallout 3 yet. The only one I'm quite attached to is Big Blue House, which took over a month to make - but I suppose I could make it again from scratch if I needed to.

Yes but the point is that it's a Manual process - and alot of modders will get it wrong. Sure they will fix them, but think of the amount of questions, complaints and frustration that would result from forcing all modders into Another manual process. Your right that it's not a Critical issue, but to me its serious.

OK, so what if it wasn't 7000 references? What if it was ... 7? In some cases, it's only 1 or 2 - a front door and that's it. Making that persistent should have almost zero impact on the world (like adding an NPC in Morrowind or Oblivion - which are persistent by default) - it's only when you have 30 in one cell that it causes issues. Would the all-persistent method be OK for house mods?

In the next thread, I'd also appreciate an update on possible issues with navmeshes. If the all-persistent method turns out to be OK for the sort of mods I make, then I guess my next question would be whether if just ticking those boxes would fix all my problems?

Hmmm - I can see your point of view - the persistent bugs will not affect You personally, but I sure don't want to have to update every piece of exterior clutter as persistent if I can avoid it, it will cause problems for the bigger mods (area/cell wise). I really don't see this as a Good method for solving the issue community-wide, but that's because the bug will hit me very hard. I'm hoping for a simplistic process to convert my mod into an ESM/ESP pair or ESM-Master only so that it will all still work! Something that is simple, standardized and able to run on all mods (IMHO) stands the best chance of becoming the next standard for modders.

M

[x_JeNnY_x]

OK, so what if it wasn't 7000 references? What if it was ... 7? In some cases, it's only 1 or 2 - a front door and that's it. Making that persistent should have almost zero impact on the world (like adding an NPC in Morrowind or Oblivion - which are persistent by default) - it's only when you have 30 in one cell that it causes issues. Would the all-persistent method be OK for house mods?

In the next thread, I'd also appreciate an update on possible issues with navmeshes. If the all-persistent method turns out to be OK for the sort of mods I make, then I guess my next question would be whether if just ticking those boxes would fix all my problems?

The problem isnt the framerate, its that persistent referances are permanently stored in your savegame and bloat it.
I for myself wouldn't risk to download ANY mod, that decides to use this method and I only can warn to not suggest this method around
so modders start using it. If so, we really make the mess complete.

I still need to know, how to add ONAM subrecords on a easy way?

[Darlene Delk]

I am also sure I'm not the only person who is reluctant to jettison a perfectly adequate official patch (other than the mod issue) in favour of an unofficial patch. I'd really need to be persuaded that that was the best way forward.

Not to be argumentative, but it's worth pointing out this isn't entirely true depending on your standpoint. I know I am in the minority but, consider my situation.

I purchased a boxed copy right at release, played the hell out of it and enjoyed it thoroughly. At that time there were only very basic mods out as there was no GECK. I don't know what version I was playing, but this was within about a month or 2 of release, so I believe there had only been 1 or 2 very basic patches. I had no VATS issues, game was thoroughly playable.

Apparently I have terrible judgement, as I decided last week to reinstall for the first time since October-ish, and buy Broken Steel (and maybe O:A and The Pitt, but mainly Broken Steel). As a result I have thrown myself into this mess, when waiting a month would likely find us with a solution either way... but you know how it is, you get that hankering for a certain game, you can't just ignore it.

I went ahead and decided from examining all the options (fake patch, unofficial patches, 1.5, ad nauseum) that upgrading to 1.5 would be fine for me, as I would be ok picking some very specific mods that supposedly should be fine. I did this primarily because I didn't want to deal with the fake patch hassle, and I had already allowed the game to update itself before finding out about the issues. Anyway, what I am getting at is this:

I am only a few hours in, and everything seems fine so far... but jesus VATS is annoying now. Where before (October) I would hit V and it would zoom and immediately pop up percentages and let me select a target, now there is literally a good 3-4 second (counting 1-1thousand) delay before I can click a body-part or see percentages. Very frustrating, and from what I have read I can look forward to occasionally being entirely unable to target certain items as well.

My point being, from the stand point of someone who hasn't been playing for the last 6 months, the game is actually WORSE now then it was shortly after release, and from what I have read, this has been the case for a while now. Very frustrating. Even more so considering my system hasn't changed except that now I have double the RAM I did at release, with 4gigs instead of 2.

[Trish]

OK. I suppose I worry that people are going to end up using two totally different methodologies and that mods will only work with whatever methodology you're using?

Me too and it is the reason I have been so active in this thread, I think we are already there though, I mean you have 1.5 compatible mods and non 1.5 / fakepatch compatible mods. The problem created the divide sadly. The main concern I have overall is compatibility and not being able to patch ESMs with ESP files to make them work with other mods, further everyone using Masters. This will be the biggest divide, not two separate systems, you will have hundreds of separate systems that conflict. Modding TES was so great as you could have mods on top of mods and not worry but that will no longer be possible.

I do believe ESMs are not yet stable enough to use for hundreds of mods at once, or even a few dozen big ones. I respect the work that is being put into perhaps making that angle work but as I have just tested above, they are not there yet.

Again, the whole idea frightens the life out of me. :cold:

Again I agree, if it is too technical I will eventually get through it but I don't think everyone will try, which is just going to put people off doing anything.

I don't think that's so much of an issue, if you think about it. I mean, I'm using almost no mods now that I used from 6 months after Oblivion's release, and none whatsoever from Morrowind's first year or two.

There were so many great little (and big) mods I kept for years and still do on disks, I don't think a mod being released early is any reason for it not to be good? Some were funny, some nostalgic, some involving, so many to count.

[LijLuva]

Hmmm - I can see your point of view - the persistent bugs will not affect You personally, but I sure don't want to have to update every piece of exterior clutter as persistent if I can avoid it, it will cause problems for the bigger mods (area/cell wise). I really don't see this as a Good method for solving the issue community-wide, but that's because the bug will hit me very hard. I'm hoping for a simplistic process to convert my mod into an ESM/ESP pair or ESM-Master only so that it will all still work! Something that is simple, standardized and able to run on all mods (IMHO) stands the best chance of becoming the next standard for modders.

Oh agreed - I just meant that it's early enough in the "life cycle" to be able to adapt to a new way of doing things.

Perhaps - if it is found to work - the larger exterior mods could be .esm files, and the little house mods could be persistent refs?

As to the person saying that even if it's only a handful of mods that are using the 'persistent' method, surely that means you also wouldn't use any mod with scripts in it? Because scripts that reference objects require persistence so surely the game can cope with a certain amount. I can already think of half a dozen persistent objects in my Big Blue House mod, and I don't think the game's keeled over yet.

Oh, I can think of one don't-play-without-it mod that isn't a house mod:

Tarrant's Baby Deathclaw Commander. You need to fix that before you fix anything else.

[Charlotte Buckley]

Since we're so close to 200, I'm going to lock this now so that we can start afresh with a new thread.