Make dagger backstabs actually viable : V - Skyrim

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:52 pm

Daggers are useless, but they didn't make dagger backstabs inviable, it's just that they never even attempted to make backstabs for anything. Daggers have just been flawed and needed a buff and they've worked on it. It's not like people are forced to use them, it just basically meant that there was one less weapon to use. However, you could make a powerful dagger if you enchant it due to the attack speed.

When I say dagger backstabs inviable, I mean standing behind someone in sneak and attacking with a dagger, regardless of how you want to call the animation. I really hope they worked on it, and I never said anyone was forced to use them. For every "powerful" enchanted dagger, you could have a several times more powerful longsword.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:22 am

Do you really think that a dagger could do more damage than a longsword? As I said in other tread, the difference in a stealthy attack with a longsword should be in stealth penalty not in the damage bonus.

I always tend to give a dagger the highest probability to ignore armor, but against an unarmored guy a sword should be overall more destructive.
It's not really the sneaking up on the target that get's more difficult with a sword, but stabbing the unprotected parts of his body, or cutting his throat gets more difficult with a longer blade.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:02 pm

It would be great if there where arias in game where weapons is not allowed and you can smuggle a dagger past the guards or really on your hand to hand skill - like castles of local rulers, and maybe even majority of the cities - it may be OK to be armed near the gate and in some shady parts of the city but equipping a weapon in other parts will attract the attention of the guard, unless it's a dagger.

Great idea, love it. Maybe not for city streets (Skyrim is a violent place), but definitely castles, important peoples' houses and clubs, etc. The door guard could function as a container that automatically takes your weapons if you accept a dialogue option (otherwise you're not allowed in), and you get your weapons back by leaving peacefully, stealing them from him or killing him. There could be a seperate inventory space for a 'concealed weapon', and the chance of discovery could be based on weapon size, speechcraft, sneak skill, choice of clothes, etc.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:38 pm

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had the perfect system. You can press 'e' (on PC) if you can get into the right position. Once done, you get some awesomely animated kills.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:24 am

Should depend on armour. If enemy has full plate armour, the longsword should be better (if you can get in range without being discovered). If enemy has incomplete armour (or just normal clothes) the dagger should give a bonus to the sneak attack, because the clever assassin can jab it in a vulnerable spot. But I agree, the main difference should be that the longsword has a huge sneak penalty. And drawing a large weapon close to NPCs should also have a huge sneak penalty due to noise.

I would also like to see sneak attack bonus being more than just on/off. I.e. if you get discovered just before the attack (within a second or so), but the enemy doesn't have time to draw a weapon / dodge, there should still be some attack bonus, just not the full bonus. Makes it feel more fluid and less gamey... all about positioning and surprise, not an on-off toggle.

Actually, it's the other way around. In reality, arming swords (called long swords in video games) are virtually useless against people wearing plate armor, and a dagger would be more useful because you could slip it into the joints more easily.

While a longer blade would be more useful against an unarmored opponend because he doesn't have any protection anywhere, and the entire blade will damage him.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:24 pm

Actually, it's the other way around. In reality, arming swords (called long swords in video games) are virtually useless against people wearing plate armor, and a dagger would be more useful because you could slip it into the joints more easily.

While a longer blade would be more useful against an unarmored opponend because he doesn't have any protection anywhere, and the entire blade will damage him.

Exactly, however a dagger is still viable in the situation where no armor is present, as vital areas are even more easily accessible.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:48 pm

I always tend to give a dagger the highest probability to ignore armor, but against an unarmored guy a sword should be overall more destructive.
It's not really the sneaking up on the target that get's more difficult with a sword, but stabbing the unprotected parts of his body, or cutting his throat gets more difficult with a longer blade.

I concede you that armor could be surpased more easy with a dager, but about the stabing umprotected parts... chop to the head, chop to, the neck... instakill.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:05 pm

Just because a dagger would be more practical for an assassin because of weight, size (ability to be concealed) doesn't mean it is more damaging than a longsword. Sneaking up behind someone and lopping his head off with a two-handed claymore will clearly do more damage than slitting his throat with a dagger, as will ramming a longsword through his chest. A dagger is not actually a better weapon for sneak attacks, it's just easier to carry and conceal.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:05 pm

Lethal sneak attacks should have a finisher unique to them. That'd be nice.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:34 am

Dagger should make less noise than larger weapons when you execute a sneak attack.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:03 pm

Realistically, a longsword would be just as effective for stabbing someone in the back; what it lacks in maneuverability, it makes up for in length. Why go for that perfect neck stab when you can just impale the guy?

I think all weapons should be equally effective at sneak attacks. It doesn't matter if you plan to slit his throat or collapse his skull - as long as you're undetected, you should have a major advantage.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:20 pm

Actually, it's the other way around. In reality, arming swords (called long swords in video games) are virtually useless against people wearing plate armor, and a dagger would be more useful because you could slip it into the joints more easily.

While a longer blade would be more useful against an unarmored opponend because he doesn't have any protection anywhere, and the entire blade will damage him.

Makes sense, I stand corrected.

So, huge detection penalty if you're carrying a sword, and sneak-attack dagger bonus vs. armour, sounds like the way to go?

On a related note, make swords generally svck against heavy armour, so that there's a point to warhammers and such!

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:14 pm

Realistically, a longsword would be just as effective for stabbing someone in the back; what it lacks in maneuverability, it makes up for in length. Why go for that perfect neck stab when you can just impale the guy?

I think all weapons should be equally effective at sneak attacks. It doesn't matter if you plan to slit his throat or collapse his skull - as long as you're undetected, you should have a major advantage.

This scenario here is exactly where realism steps away in favor of gameplay. If you did that you'd be back in Morrowind, sneak attacking with a 2-handed axe, along with heavy armor for absurd damage. Meanwhile, your dagger would be sub-par in a frontal fight. Result? No one picking dagger AGAIN.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:33 am

Actually swords werent useless against heavy armor, there were two edge designs, one with two stright lines converging for cutting meat and soft armor and the other with two curved lines converging to break plates. stabbing swords where good against armor also.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:47 pm

Meanwhile, your dagger would be sub-par in a frontal fight. Result? No one picking dagger AGAIN.

That's right!

So, instead of what I mentioned earlier, give every weapon a sneak attack, but have daggers' be the best, possibly the only one assuring an instant kill. That way, you're sacrificing the combat effectiveness for a conditional, but very worthwhile advantage.

I like it.

» Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:44 am

Actually, if you have read gameinformer, there's a picture of someone (maybe player) backstabbing with a dagger a dunmer in a Splinter Cell style. It looks very realistic.

Unless the Dunmer have started putting their heads and elbows on backwards, there is no picture of someone being "back stabbed" in Game Informer. Gut stabbed, yes. Back stabbed, no.