Make me fear of dying : V - Skyrim

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:18 pm

I'd like to make me fear of dying but in the sense of "uhm...if I enter that dungeon over here, I won't know what I'll find, and maybe there's something REALLY dangerous and non-level scaled that will turn me into pieces".

So, in short, with a nice level scaling system a-la-Morrowind, or even better I'd be happy

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:40 am

I think you do not need the game engine to help you to progress quickly to have fun.

That's certainly true. I have little time and I still walk everywhere in TES games. The point is it's nice having the freedom to play how you want. You can still put that limit on yourself and be happy with the result. Personally I don't crave quick progress (I'm very laid back and go with the flow normally, I often find myself distinctly side tracked), but I don't like repeating things over and over if I can help it. It becomes repetitive and I just play something else. I'm all for challenge, just don't try and for e this particular one down our throats.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:59 am

Well, there could of course be a save fle for exiting the game. Evertime you quit, you save, so you can't cheat death but still can leave when you wish to.

well no. Because as opposite to Diablo, you don't restart in the safety of town when you do it. And contrary to Diablo, it happens in TES that you find yourself with NO choice than reloading to a previous save (found myself trapped in a pit un a cave in Morrowind, no levitation potions, no mark/recall spell yet, no choice bue reload), and can't restart a new game with the same character.
Such a system is efficient and work great for games like Diablo, where it's the only way to save, and you can't choose what save to reload.
Implement this in a TES game would require too much change for the serie to be still called a TES.

And adding traditional save as well as that would simply make the autosave when exiting the game completely useless.

My bet would be to put a optional hardcoe mode, where you can't save if you are not safe, near enemies or whatever.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:05 am

The ability to save-and-load makes everything possible - you can break any lock or beat any creature - just by trying it again and again and again... Sure you do not have to do that - it is your singleplayer game and it is just up to you how you play it. But, at least for me, it is sometimes hard to resist. And what can you do if you die? You have to load and try it again.

I just want, you know; "Do or do not. There is no try."

I see this as being a problem in Oblivion because of level-scaling and lockpick mini-games. You wouldn't load and reload over again if you knew that dungeon was way beyond your current level...or that no matter how many times you attempt to pick that lock your chances of succeeding are minuscule because you didn't invest points in lockpicking. Of course those are just balancing issues that every RPG has had to deal with since the dawn of mankind. The question of how to make you fear death...suppose Bethesda did make it so you could only save in certain areas...that would only force them to make the game even easier lest they have a legion of frustrated casual gamers. Imagine Daggerfall with a limited save/reload system...yikes.

I don't think RPGs are really balanced around the fear of dying, but more around the reward of succeeding and overcoming the challenge. That's how I play them. When I used to play good ol' Baldur's Gate 2...if I died in a battle I could just reload sure...but I'd then have to take the time to figure out what went wrong, what can I do better. Again, this is more of a problem with how level-scaling and runaway uber-balancing made Oblivion so strategically bland then it is about making death feel like a punishment. There's no sense of accomplishment when everything is balanced around you defeating it at your level anyway. :shrug:

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:44 am

Two words: Demons Souls

Seriously play that game if you want to "fear death". When you die in Demons Souls (which is easy to do) you lose all of your "souls" you collected from destroying monsters (which is currency, experience, etc) and you respawn in a hub called the Nexus (where you go to other worlds/levels from, buy equipment using your souls and level yourself up using souls). The only way to get your souls back is to find your corpse/bloodstain from where you died.

Also when you die, you enter "spirit form" which is just like your normal form except you have half health. You don't get your normal form back until you beat a boss demon and capture it's Demon Soul, which will make your health bar 100% full again.

It's very effective at making you feel more cautious with your actions, because you don't want to lose your "progress". If you do lose your progress though, there's always a way to get it back - just at a disadvantage (half-health max).

Also, could also go the route of Witcher 2, which will feature a special difficulty mode where you only have one life. You can quick save all you want just like in Elder Scrolls, but if you die the game disables loading all save games from the game that you died in.

I'm not sure if that's as effective of a route to take simply because for an open world and unpredictable game like TESV that might be too punishing unless the whole game was balanced with it in mind (which will never happen), but it is an interesting idea at least.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:28 am

I think being able to create a "hardcoe" character would be good:

It would have much better achievements in the console version.
It would have dying consequences for the character.
It would have optional bodily needs for the player to attend to, which would result in higher achievements.
It would have environmental hazards that would affect the body, like cold, avalanches and blizzards.
And it would have unforgiving game mechanisms and environment, with no level scaling, and hand holding at all.

like Potions that worked slowly overtime, and menus that did not stop the time, and so on...

Dying consequences can be that you can only save at specific shrines/temples and the like, and you would respawn there after you died, and have to track down or pay the monks there to summon your old body, in order to loot is, and you might loose some items if some passing enemy NPC had decided to loot your body beforehand, of some non-quest related item(s).

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:22 am

Considering I usually keep trying the stupid stuff over again when I reload, I think I'll keep my quicksave.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:35 am

I have a death penalty mod for Oblivion. When you die you wake up at an Inn with all gold and all items gone.

» Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:39 pm

I hate the idea of checkpoints, but I want to constantly fear death when in a dangerous situation in Skyrim. As someone posted earlier today in the thread about dungeon traps, I want traps that will chop your head off and instantly kill you if you're not careful.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:22 am

I hate the idea of checkpoints, but I want to constantly fear death when in a dangerous situation in Skyrim. As someone posted earlier today in the thread about dungeon traps, I want traps that will chop your head off and instantly kill you if you're not careful.

If you can instantly load your game to the last quick-save, then it would add no suspense, especially if you gain the auto reflexes of quick saving the game every few minutes, and before any significant action.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:11 am

Nono, this idea is coupled with the respawning thingie.
If you die, you save. Everytime you quit, you save. Whatever happens you can't byass it by quiting, because you would overwrite the old savegame by doing that.
The only other way to save would be by checkpoints, which location would be entrances, quest statrs, inns etc.

Pretty sure I can force quit faster than the game can trigger the save function, especially if I would have to deal with something that is, in my opinion, annoying. I would actually just plan on force quitting when I expected death. And by force quit I mean like end the process in Task Launcher. It just isn't a viable option for most of us.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:16 am

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The situation you're describing, that's exactly what I want.

Fear makes the game more enjoyable ; you don't fear if you don't stand to lose something... So there's got to be a penalty for dying.

Losing progress would be one for me. Checkpoints might indeed do the trick : I know I would heartily favour that solution. Bit doubtful they'll implement them, though, but who knows.

More challenging combats might be a start. And by that I don't mean just slide difficulty to the maximum and make enemies merely tougher - in Oblivion, it just made enemies annoying ; they've got to also make it just plain impossible to just go brute force in some fights, so to force you to devise strategies ; impossible also to be able to just breeze through any fight by merely stacking restorative means.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:45 am

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The situation you're describing, that's exactly what I want.

Fear makes the game more enjoyable ; you don't fear if you don't stand to lose something... Save-points might do the trick : I know I would heartily favor that solution. Bit doubtful they'll implement them, though, but who knows.

save points? unreally. what about CTDs?
You run for a few hours through the snowy mountains, the next Savepoint is in sight. You climb up a wall. the savepoint is only a few footsteps away. you collect your last power and...
Desktop

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:07 am

God forbid... I want to be able to save when and where I want. That freedom is essential in a game like this. Don't like it don't use it. You have that freedom too you know.

» Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:31 pm

I'm against this.

Some times you want to goof around.
I have goof off characters and actual character files.
Just resist those urges.

Do or do not resist. Don't hinder other people's gameplay.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:44 am

God forbid... I want to be able to save when and where I want. That freedom is essential in a game like this. Don't like it don't use it. You have that freedom too you know.

Let's leave the thread's argument for ten secs. I am really tired with that kind of reasoning, which we also hear for fast travel. "Don't like it don't use it" : but not using it by willpower, while the option is there, is simply not the same feel as having the game forcing it on me. In one case, I'm merely playing, and I can quit doing that when I want ; in the second case, this is a necessity, I have to survive. All the difference between trekking in the wild for one day, and being lost in the woods for real, if ya will. I mean, you might say to someone who thinks the fights are too easy : "well, try to only use your right hand to make it more difficult for you ; you've got that freedom."

Okay, enough of that.

I understand though such a thing might be annoying for you. I think we're back at the idea of a customizable hardcoe mode, which would satisfy everybody.

» Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:39 pm

I honestly hope Skyrim will be a pure singleplayer, but there is one thing from multiplayer games I have never experienced in Oblivion - to be fear of death.

Once on one (RP focused) persistent server of Neverwinter Nights, I undertook a hazardous voyage to one of dungeons far from a city. I have got seriously wounded and was sneaking back. I had no healing potions left and all my applicable spells were used up. It was night, the city was far away and I didn't know the region well. I heard howling of werewolves from near forest, I found a clawed tree... Damn that was horrifying. And mostly because I knew that I can not save the game, I can not even pause it. I just had to continue playing or log out (but it would tell me that I died after logging in).

When you die, it is not over of course, you will respawn. But you will loose some valuable amount of experience and all money. I know it can not be implemented in that way in a singleplayer game. It would be also pretty lame if you were not able to stop the game whenever you want to. But if there were some way how to evoke that fear, it would be great.

There were sometimes public events on that server - lots of PCs and NPCs on one place and everyone played quite responsible - more realistic. In Oblivion it would be like: "Hey, save it and try what happen if you shoot that king to the head!" (Almost) no one would ever try it if it was irreversible.

The ability to save-and-load makes everything possible - you can break any lock or beat any creature - just by trying it again and again and again... Sure you do not have to do that - it is your singleplayer game and it is just up to you how you play it. But, at least for me, it is sometimes hard to resist. And what can you do if you die? You have to load and try it again.

I just want, you know; "Do or do not. There is no try."

Open your menu, go to options and scroll the difficulty bar to full in Oblivion. There you go, start fearing.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:01 am

haven't read the whole thread so this might have been mentioned -

imagine a 'customization' menu that had an adjustable amount of lives, and once they've ran out the game ends permanently. And you can only determine the amount of lives at the beginning of the game. It would be like a forced iron-man.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:59 am

Hmm if you go into a casino in New Vegas, save in front of a roulette table, put 200 chips on 1 then it lands on 18 and then you load the save you made and try playing roulette again, you will get a message that says "the person that runs the table is currently checking the wheel for bias for the next 60 seconds". I think a system like this applied directly to the saves in something like the hardcoe mode could help without impacting people that can't play however long they want. It would make sure that unless you are patient you would not be able to try picking a lock, failing and loading a save 6 or 7 times until you get the thing unlocked. If you just barely missed victory against an enemy, you could wait a couple times longer than you would to respawn in some multiplayer games and try again. The 60 second wait is not particularly bad but it could be similar to receiving a mild shock each time you did something you shouldn't have. Over time you may start to hate or fear death in the game because you will remember how annoying it was to have to wait each time you loaded a save you made in a nearly unwinable situation only to die.

Alternative solution (garenteed to make you fear death in game): A small box will come with each copy of the game. This small box is full trained wasps contained in multiple chambers and must be connected to your console and or PC before you may play the game. If you die in the game a chamber will be opened and the wasps will fly out and sting your legs then fly back into the box. If you die 2 times 2 chambers will open, this trend will continue until you are no longer able to play the game. You will completely fear death in the game if this method is used,

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:25 am

Let's leave the thread's argument for ten secs. I am really tired with that kind of reasoning, which we also hear for fast travel. "Don't like it don't use it" : but not using it by willpower, while the option is there, is simply not the same feel as having the game forcing it on me. In one case, I'm merely playing, and I can quit doing that when I want ; in the second case, this is a necessity, I have to survive. All the difference between trekking in the wild for one day, and being lost in the woods for real, if ya will. I mean, you might say to someone who thinks the fights are too easy : "well, try to only use your right hand to make it more difficult for you ; you've got that freedom."

Okay, enough of that.

I understand though such a thing might be annoying for you. I think we're back at the idea of a customizable hardcoe mode, which would satisfy everybody.

Also how about a Dead is Dead hardcoe option.

That would definately make people fear it.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:44 am

Open your menu, go to options and scroll the difficulty bar to full in Oblivion. There you go, start fearing.

Fearing to actually have grandchildren before the fight ends ?

Dunno how it works actually, but I suspect the difficulty slider just reduces the damage you inflict and enhance this of your enemy, or give them better health : that's how annoying it feels anyway.

I don't want to have the fight equivalent to eroding a mountain with a nailfile ; the enemy has to be smart and force you to also think.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:48 am

Maybe they could limit saves to certain "safe" areas such as cities, or maybe go the RD:R route and have campfires/basecamps. That way it's at least enough of an inconvenience where you aren't saving every 30 seconds when wandering in the wilderness...

This is the best and the obvious answer. Duh, we've all seen that mechanism before and it really ADDS to the experience.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:22 am

This is the best and the obvious answer. Duh, we've all seen that mechanism before and it really ADDS to the experience.

Would be less jarring than implementing checkpoints in TES, too : we'd have the same save menus, but could only use them in some safe areas. Yeah, that's interesting.

» Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:56 am

I am really tired with that kind of reasoning, which we also hear for fast travel. "Don't like it don't use it" : but not using it by willpower, while the option is there, is simply not the same feel as having the game forcing it on me. In one case, I'm merely playing, and I can quit doing that when I want ; in the second case, this is a necessity, I have to survive.

Precisely. If you're looking to be made to fear death due to the lack of saves, then the only thing that works is the game enforcing a lack of saves. It's not scary otherwise, because you know the option is still there to use anytime you really need. Just like with fast travel.. when you get out of a particularly difficult dungeon, you know you can just pop open the map and teleport to any city you want, safe and sound. However, if you have to get there on foot (or on horse), it keeps tensions high because there's still the possibility you can run into something on the way. You can feel the tinge of safety when you see the castle walls come over the horizon, but you gotta keep alert. Then once you get inside the side, you can fully relax, and it feels great. You did it! You managed to raid the dungeon, and made it back safely, victorious! ...but since fast travel is always there, you know you can teleport to safety at just about anytime you want. The thrill ends once you get out of the dungeon, if not before then when you get the treasure deep within.

It just isn't the same when you know there's a safety net there to catch you in case you fall.

» Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:39 pm

Fearing to actually have grandchildren before the fight ends ?

Dunno how it works actually, but I suspect the difficulty slider just reduces the damage you inflict and enhance this of your enemy, or give them better health : that's how annoying it feels anyway.

I don't want to have the fight equivalent to eroding a mountain with a nailfile ; the enemy has to be smart and force you to also think.

Upping the difficulty bar just increases the enemies health and damage. It is pretty difficult and I love it. Makes it where I don't one shot everything with my 900 damage spells. I also believe it reduces the level that higher level enemies show up. I'm not completely sure about this as it has been about a year since I last played Oblivion with the difficulty maxed.