This is true. But the ironic part of this entire story is that they actually went ahead and improved hth animations. Khajiits finally got that clawing animation for hth that they've been missing along with a small increase in damage.

All they have to do to get me out of their hair would be to tie hth to some skill. They allready did the hard work...they just need to tie it to a skill so I can get better at doing it as I do it. That's all, and I'd be fine. I don't need perks as long as there's a way to hurt ghosts via hth. I don't need special gauntlets. I just need a way to improve the damage so it's viable even towards "engame".

But...instead they tied it to nothing. There very well might not be a way to increase hth damage since it's not tied to a skill. So...they waisted their time working on the animations for nothing?

I mean...I just don't understand. I can't...it just doesn't...

Your spoiler read my mind.

Don't knock hand to hand. It's been a lethal form of combat in the Orient for centuries. How's it not viable?

It might have something to do with something as trivial as the interface design, maybe they didn't want to have that many things scrolling left to right in the constellations?

In any case, it would be nice if they at least added special maneuvers and perks earned through questlines to supplement it like in New Vegas...though that game actually did have it as a skill.

The inclusion of hidden perks/questlines isn't so far-fetched I think. It would provide people who want h2h as a viable option more tools to make it so. The question is, can there be features based around h2h even though it's not a skill?

Maybe they could tie it to stamina? Like say x amount of stamina = so and so amount of skill, capping at a relevant number.

So because they fail at animations you assume that you are actually blocking the blade with your skin and not stepping inside the persons reach and blocking their arm or something. Seriously look at how bad blocking with a dagger looks, do you really think you can block a ax with a dagger and those crap moves.

-looks at video and sees guy blocking axe with arms-

Um yeah?

And no I dont think someone can block and axe with a dagger,thats pretty dumb.

He's saying that the in-game animation is not a perfect representation of what would really be going on, the axe would be deflected some other way.

hand to hand is essentially useless as a skill... i'm not a fan of removing it as i think people that like it should have the option, but I definitely see why they feel that they don't really need it included.

I don't think "imagining" your guy deflecting the axe some other way is really plausible here. Even if your roleplaying,in game,it will always be seen as your guy holding his arms up and a huge axe just magically bouncing off your bare skin.

There are many things that aren't represented perfectly in-game. You don't really disappear and reappear when you go through a door, for instance.

The first part of what you said, regarding NPCs rather than the player character might be valid if it also didn't apply to the character, as it is inevitable that it would. You lost me after that, though.

It's a world of magic and super strength. In D&D a monk can beat two Dragons into submission with his bare fists, in Skyrim I′d like to be able to do at least half of that, or even less considering it's probably harder to beat a dragon into submission than to beat it to death.

Granted Hand to Hand is not my favorite fighting style it's on my top 5 list and I would make another monk like my Argonian one from Oblivion if given the chance.

Edit: Oh, and just while I remember. A staff member of Bethesda has actually claimed fighting as a monk will be a viable option so I'm quite optimistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsrtjwwcEX8&feature=player_detailpage#t=254s

Hand to hand isn't useless as some suggest. First not only does it hurt you ,it fatigues you also. I loved using hand to hand,and roleplaying a monk etc.
Those that say it's useless or won't miss it,or dont'/won't use it let me ask you this: What if it was done properly: Kicks,sweeps,counters,grabs,throws,neck-breaks,and so on and so forth,many things. Then add who it would work well with other skills as in magic,shouts,stealth etc.If it had claws,knuckles etc-we could add poison. If hand to hand got the attention it deserved and was done properly,it would porbably be the best skill in the game,and the most fun. You can be way more dexterous with your hands/body than you can holding a weapon.
It just wasn't given enough attention in morrowind and oblivion,though i still used it. I bet people don't call hand to hand useless when you use it being a werewolf.
Like i've said ,if this skill was given proper attention with more moves,claws,knuckles etc,it would be the best ( or one of the best ) skills in the game,and most fun.

I'm going to miss it has a fully fledged skill. They ( bethesda ) have missed a trick here,not giving this skill what it deserves.

I will add though: I t would probably be hard for bethesda to do all those extra animations in first person. As in : Sweeps ,kicks ,throws and many more. It can be alot of hard work to do those things in first person and get it right on screen.It would look so sweet though being able to do all that,and not to mention what finishers would look like with unarmed.

Yes..
That is your opinion.

My opinion is that I will miss the hand-to-hand skill.

I couldn't care less that the skill is gone, but removing it certainly does not make the game better.

What it does do is take away the option for people that did like it. And option is generally one of the keys to a good RPG.

Personally I would have liked them to have expanded the skill into a martial art skill where you can use your legs, headbutt and/or physical takedowns (think Deus Ex) as well. This would have improved the overall experience and given players who like to use no weapons a better eperience. With hand to hand being quite a simple skill as it is currently implemented I do agree with it not being a skill but like I said I would have prefered to have seen Bethesda improve the system overall rather than just ignoring it.

I never use hand to hand because I find it boring however it has potential that isn't being expanded upon, imo

I think hand to hand should have been like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8cDfnQD0ws

Well, there is some role-playing potential behind having hand-to-hand as a skill. It would have to be limited in some situations as you have pointed out, but I think it would be very possible to implement if it was connected to the schools of magic. In the lowest levels it's merely punching, but could become a power by which you can surround magic around your hands. This energy would be used to inflict more damage, and can deflect enemy attacks. It wouldn't be your hands blocking, but the magic around those hands. You could also have all the touch-spells delivered through hand-to-hand combat. This system would be extremely enjoyable if you could direct your blows to different parts of a person's body. It would also be great with different dodging techniques along with the ability to kick.

It would be really hard to implement and if they did it well, it would would take some of the intended atmosphere away from the game, and of course, the time needed to improve more important aspects of the core combat system. Also, with my example, those things could be done with pure magic, you just don't have the physical combat, but I think it would fit well to some degree.


P.S, This isn't a sensitive topic, it's overly sensitive people who can't talk about a game with other people. I also think it's rude to make posts intended to mock the OP's choice of topic and tear down their intention to discuss that topic.

I can't see how removing HtH as a skill change any of the complains you have about unarmed fighting in Skyrim. Surelly killing a dragon with punches will be doable, as well as blocking an axe chop and the range will be equally horrible. Only it won't be a skill this time.

Well they said most the attributes are still there but 'in the background'. Perhaps there is a hidden strength attribute (I'm sure there are potions which will increase physical damage, A.K.A. Strength) so maybe it goes up in the background when leveling one-handed or two-handed weapons, we just can't directly add points to it like health, magicka and stamina. I dunno just a guess. This way characters who use the physical weapons would slowly get 'stronger' in terms of hand to hand, which makes sense compared to say a mage who only uses magic.

One preview mentioned something about a 'swift foot' potion to increase character speed, so as much as people complain about 'no attributes' I still feel they are there, just altered differently.

Failing that the only other way thing I could see happening is it leveling with your level, or having some kind of player 'skill' behind it, as in more based on your reactions and using right moves at the right time, rather than a skill. It's just if everyone was exactly the same with it (asides from Kahjiit with their increased damage) then there wouldn't be much point to it, and Bethesda is trying hard to get rid of pointless 'fat' as they say.

Firstly: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

Secondly: How do you kill a dragon with a dagger hmmm?

We definitely needed a H2H skill with its own perks.

So....magicaly learning a skill that normally takes years of diligent practice to learn makes sense? Blocking how Oblivion handled it should not what hand to hand is for, blocking in hand to hand means grappling, grabbing the weapon and preventing it from moving as you bust out ninja skills on them.