Making the game difficult. : V

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:13 pm

What are some decent ways to make the game difficult other than moving the slider up? Blanket damage halving/boosting is not my idea of fun. However, I am finding by level 30 I am destroying everything in my path with ease. I don't want to increase spawns, as that introduced more instability than I was comfortable with. But rather, make mobs themselves more difficult.

My current character is a duel wielder with 3 companions, I recently dropped two of them and its still pretty easy.

I am considering making an archer dagger user that uses no armor. We will see how that goes.

My current mod list:

Active Mod Files:

Spoiler

00  Skyrim.esm01  Update.esm02  Dawnguard.esm03  HearthFires.esm04  Dragonborn.esm05  ApachiiHair.esm06  Nchuzzrezar.esm07  Skyrim Immersive Creatures.esm  [Version v5.1.1]08  SkyMoMod.esm09  SPIKE.esm0A  Perk-Reset-MCM.esm0B  NPCEssential - Miners.esp0C  NPCEssential - Followers.esp0D  NPCEssential - Vendors.esp0E  NPCEssential - Stable Masters.esp0F  NPCEssential - Lumberjacks.esp10  NPCEssential - Horses.esp11  NPCEssential - Farmers.esp12  NPCEssential - Caravan Traders.esp13  NPCEssential - Trainers.esp14  NPCEssential - Citizens.esp15  NPCEssential - Carriage Drivers.esp16  Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp  [Version 1.3.1a]17  Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.esp  [Version 1.2.1]18  Unofficial Hearthfire Patch.esp  [Version 1.1.0]19  Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.3]1A  Chesko_Frostfall.esp1B  enhanceddynamicweathersystem.esp1C  Weapons and Armor Fixes - Hacks.esp1D  Chesko_WearableLantern.esp1E  Skyrim Immersive Creatures - DLC2.esp  [Version v0.2]1F  SkyMoMod Extras Collectables.esp20  moreloot.esp21  Convenient Horses.esp22  IMAGINATOR - Visual Control for Skyrim.esp23  RaceMenu.esp24  RaceMenuPlugin.esp25  SkyRealism - Simple Save System - 10 min.esp  [Version 1.0]26  SkyUI.esp27  Cloaks.esp28  Cloaks - Dawnguard.esp29  Dwemer Goggles & Scouter.esp2A  EK_RingLimiter.esp2B  hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.esp2C  Dr_Bandolier.esp2D  Complete Crafting Overhaul.esp2E  Complete Crafting Overhaul - BS version.esp2F  HarvestOverhaul.esp  [Version 2.0]30  DeadlyDragons.esp31  Monster Wars.esp32  SkyRe_Main.esp33  SkyRe_Combat.esp34  SkyRe_EncounterZones.esp35  SkyRe_EnemyScaling.esp36  SkyRe_StandingStones.esp37  SkyRe_Survivalism.esp38  SkyRe_Plugin_ImmersiveArmor_5.esp39  SkyRe_Dreamcloth.esp3A  Nchuzzrezar.esp3B  The Asteria - Dwemer Airship.esp3C  towBlockSteal.esp++  3x magickaregen.esp3D  AchieveThat.esp3E  Deadly Traps.esp3F  FasterHorses_Sprint_x1_5.esp40  Immersive Weapons.esp41  SilentRuneSpells_v100.esp42  SilentRuneSpellsUncap_v100.esp43  Sneak Tweak.esp44  Sickly Diseases.esp45  SkyTEST-RealisticAnimals&Predators.esp46  smash locks and more.esp47  Long lost smelters by Hyralux.esp48  Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Dungeons.esp49  Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Major City Exteriors.esp4A  Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Major City Interiors.esp4B  Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Dawnguard Interiors.esp4C  Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Minor Cities and Town Interiors.esp4D  SkyRealism - Capacity and Carry Weight.esp  [Version 1.8]4E  SkyRealism - Mass and Materials.esp  [Version 1.8]4F  SkyRealism - Mass and Materials - Dawnguard.esp  [Version 2.0]++  SkyRealism - Mass and Materials - Hearthfires.esp  [Version 2.0]50  SkyRealism - Mass and Materials - Dr_Bandolier.esp  [Version 2.0]++  Sprint0.esp51  Apocalypse - The Spell Package.esp52  MidasSkyrim.esp53  Ghostifish-Magical Alchemy Harvest-o-tron.esp54  Horse Whisper.esp55  Phenderix's Magic Evolved - No Perks.esp56  Enchanting Freedom.esp57  Better Stealth AI for Followers.esp58  The Dance of Death - Ultimate Edition.esp59  ACE BYOG.esp5A  No Skill Limit.esp5B  Sneak Tools.esp5C  Sneak Tools Vanilla Hoods.esp5D  Sneak Tools Vanilla Masks.esp5E  Artifact Disenchanting.esp5F  Artifact Disenchanting - Dawnguard.esp60  FormsEdit.esp61  UFO - Ultimate Follower Overhaul.esp62  UFO - Dawnguard AddOn.esp63  UFO - Heartfire AddOn.esp64  Follower Trap Safety.esp65  CerwidenCompanion.esp66  Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp  [Version 2.2.2]67  RAS - Riverwood CharGen.esp68  SkyRe_Races.esp++  Skyrim 20 DeadBody Remover.esp++  Skyrim 3 Day DeadBody Timer.esp++  Skyrim 1 Day Respawn.esp69  Skyrim 3 Day Vendor Respawn.esp6A  HarvestOverhaulDawnguardDragonborn.esp  [Version 2.0]6B  SkyRe_HarvestOverhaulDawnguardDragonbornPatch.esp6C  TanningSmeltingExp.esp6D  ValsCraftingMeltdownAlpha - NoArrows.esp6E  Artifact Disenchanting - Dragonborn.esp6F  Better Vampires.esp70  DudestiaMultiMarriages.esp71  Spousetocustomhome.esp72  SkyRE-Patch.esp73  KaceAutoloot.esp74  Bashed Patch, 0.esp75  ReProccer.esp76  SkyRe_EnemyAI.esp

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:05 pm

In my current game I am using http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9286, http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/3829 (bundled with Deadly Dragons), http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/24913, http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/27866 and http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/31264.

I have Deadly Dragons set to "Expert" and I use the Deadly Monsters sliders to make Humanoid enemies a bit tougher and Undead enemies very tougher. I am finding this combination of mods and settings to be fairly difficult. :smile:

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:05 pm

You should install "Duel Combat Realism" which makes the game as it should be...
The player is staggered when hit - it makes all the difference. :smile:

Apart from that, it's traditional to increase the difficulty to Expert once smithing reaches 60 (and you can smith enchanted items).
Then again, once you are able to dual-enchant items you might consider Master difficulty to keep things interesting. :shrug:

But with Duel Combat Realism things are challenging on default (Adept) difficulty!
You are still powerful, but become very wary of 3 or 4 bandits at once.
And bandit bosses wielding big two-hand weapons must be respected - or they'll launch you into orbit, heheh...

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:57 pm

I think people have the wrong idea about difficulty. In previous games, all the slider did was increase tedium (and it hardly even changed danger, it just made fights last longer). I don't think this is true at all for Skyrim.

Keep a few things in mind:

Few enemies are armored
Only the player has improved weapons and armor
NPCs have limited spell selection
Perks aren't assigned to NPCs, so they are effectively several levels lower than they're supposed to be
Bad AI

IMO, raising the difficulty level just reduces the many advantages the player has. Except for a few boss fights, it doesn't even prolong fights much. Yes, it does make them last a little longer, but just long enough to occasionally have fights rather than one-sided slaughter.

In terms of mods that help with difficulty:

ASIS - for smarter NPCs, perks given to NPCs, more spells given to NPCs, and more spawns

A Combat mod of your choice

In terms of combat mods, there are a few good ones to choose from, and all of them make the game more challenging:

Duke Patrick's - the hardest IMO and definitely the most features, focuses on realism

Duel - focuses more on RPG-style play where character level/skill makes a huge difference

Combat Remastered - more action-oriented than DP

All of these make stamina important, and increase the necessity of blocking. All of them making fighting more involved and interesting. But I still usually play on Master difficulty to give NPCs a fighting chance.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:24 pm

Well, I am using skyrim redone with its AI and such. I investigated and it seemed SkyRe's ai is better than Asis ai [or so people said]. If I recall duke patricks is included in skyre.

I think setting hard limits on my gameplay is really the only way to make it difficult. For example, I am going to play using only gear, potions, and enchantments I made myself. So the only real benefit of merchants is to buy supplies [buy an enchanted necklace for its enchantment then disenchant it]. And of course crafting doesn't level my character up [smithing, alchemy or enchant]. I have even considered disabling sneak to level my character up as well. Another thing I did, though it benefits me and the enemies, is the arrow speed is 3 times faster. So basically we are all using laser guns :tongue:

A note about stagger... no. I don't want any more stagger, esp as an archer. I usually end up stagger locked. That doesn't really make it difficult as it does annoying. And in my game is an odd bug where when I am staggered I run at full speed [even when sneaking with bow drawn]. So I end up falling off high places [since, asn an archer, I start battles in high places]

Are there any mods that make potion drinking not so instant? I don't mean the effects, I mean actually drinking the potion. Like an animation or the like. Maybe a potion cool down. Skyre already makes all potions over-time based.

I could even make enchanting based only on disenchanting items I found. Remove the need for merchants completely.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:13 am

http://www.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11481/makes potions work over a duration rather than instant. It makes other changes, so read the description to see if you like them.

http://www.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/3646/ isn't included in any other mod. Definitely worth a try if you want harder and more involved combat. There's really nothing else like it. But Duel and Combat Remastered are great, too, so it depends on what you're looking for.

Also, if you use only items made by yourself, at low levels that will make the game harder, but at high levels it will make the game much easier.

One other thing to consider is to try dead is dead.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:30 am

There's a mod out there that actually forces you to drink potions >http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=112102290< here. I haven't tried it, since I'm 95% sure it'll mostly get me killed and result in me yelling at the TV, but hey. SkyRe already includes most of the minor suggestions I'd make, like a stealth overhaul, so you're sitting pretty well in general.

SkyRe also does a pretty good job of making smithing not OP, which is great, but enchanting is still enchanting. I set a house rule a while back where I stopped enchanting my own gear and only use gear I find/purchase (which usually svcks/costs too damn much). The removal of one more obnoxious craft grinds is welcome, and the choice acts as a decent handicap for most of the game. Some more economy tweaks, like higher crime bounties, expensive investments, and lower quest rewards all tie together there.

I see you're in the process of experimenting, but I suggest that you spend most of your time without followers. I still have a follower on standby where ever I made camp, in case there's something I KNOW I can't do solo or want to go dragon hunting, but I can't stress how much having followers around makes the game feel like it's playing itself.

I think you'll find an archer/dagger rogue to be alarming easy. No armor, ironically, might actually make the game even easier, as the little boost it gives stealth helps make sure enemies die long before they ever threaten you. That said, it's my favorite playstyle because it can be so fun if done right, but still. Just go heavier on the dagger than you do the bow. :tongue:

Not really great advice, I know, but with SkyRe and ASIS, well... It's either turn up the difficulty slider, use a mod to make your own custom difficulty mode, or enact some house rules. There's simply not much left to tweak.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:47 am

I am also finding that the difficulty drops too much at 30+. All of the other mods I have tried so far make the game too difficult in the beginning. Vanilla Adept is a tad easy until I encounter a boss type NPC. Vanilla Expert is nice a hard but makes bosses too difficult. I hate having to adjust the difficulty on the fly, so I just leave it ad Adept.

All mods seems to be written by people who got bored playing at Master. I respectfully bow to them. :bowdown:

So, I am playing with my own changes. I modified level list 1-5 to make the enemies a little harder than vanilla, and level list 6 so that the NPCs are generated with the PC Offset feature, so they keep leveling with you with a max level of 60-70.

So far, I am at level 25, and it is a little harder than vanilla. I want to see what happens when I approach level 35.

However, there is another thing the game does that kinda svcks. It starts deluding you with potions, making alchemy near worthless. And, it deludes you with soul gems. Thanks to Dwemer enemies, Blackreach, and the Soul Cairn I end up awash in many soul gems of all levels (20 black and 20 grand alone).

So, in general the game goes from being challenging at first to way too easy later.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:06 am

FrostFall. It's an amazing mod. It's not some silly hardcoe mode, it's really is about survival in real time, not just some forgettable numerical penalty.

And, More Bandit camps mod. It adds about 30+ bandit camps, especially in that big empty area in the land west of Whiterun.

And finally, ASIS patcher. Great mod, flawless, non-intrusive. It gives the A.I. better equipment, spells, even stuff you've add through mods and makes the A.I. smarter. Make sure to put it last in your order because that's how it works.

Frostfall needs SKUI mod menu to work good, and it needs skyrim script extender. If you hate SKUI, get the SKUI Away mod. It gets rid of that annoying mod except the Mod manager feature. So you can download mods that need it without the intrusiveness.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:34 pm

Assuming this topic is about "how" to make the game difficult, not what mods to download to make it difficult... My experience is that, simply put, there are so many ways to exploit the gameplay mechanics...including the game balance destroyer trio i.e., smithing & alchemy & enchantment. My approach is to force myself to do some serious role playing and toss in a lot of self control. I recently start another game playing as certain barbarian (starts with a C). In which I...

- force av to set my magicka point to zero, no more magic casting, though I can rely on my follower (Cerwiden) to heal me at times

- only take on smithing perks and no alchemy and enchantment

- as I use Duke Patrick's combat mod, I am planning to take advantage of certain perk rewarding not wearing torso armor (armor rating is in the tens) and gauntlet by adding improved weapon speed (for light weapons)

...while I am still experimenting with mod combination (currently trying the ERSO module for enemy leveling)...I actually enjoy my current setup quite a bit. Sure I died&reload a lot...but with archery, stealth and a few shouts (without restoration magic, I am forced to dodge and shout with "whirlwind sprint" a lot) I can survive the game just fine.

I would like to try out FrostFall, but I heard it conflicts with Duke's mod. A pity.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:24 pm

Since this thread was posted in the mods forum I have to assume it is about mods... *shrugs*

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:07 pm

Frostfall doesn't clash with Duke Patrick's - I played with both just fine.

Duke Patrick's mod is excellent. SkyRe is surprisingly good as well and I quite liked it. The combat is actually quite good and I found it better than Deadly Combat or Duel. Of course, you pretty much have to commit to using its perk trees - though these are also very well done (SPERG is excellent if you want a better perk tree outside of SkyRe). I didn't get to very high levels with - maybe around 15 - but it's a fun challenge against multiple opponents at lower levels. The reproccer is a cool tool, but also new pain - and it interacted somewhat badly with ASIS, even after taking all the warnings into account.

Both Duke's and SkyRe tackle the problem of in-combat instapotions, which is probably the most broken thing in the game. DP's runs a quaff animation, though it's the same length regardless of how many you drank (though I could be misremembering this!). SkyRe has all potions take effect over time, so a multi-potion use is still not guaranteed to heal you in time.

Morrowloot is a great mod and fixes the gear problem nicely - where the gear problem is how quickly you can craft elven/dwarven/orcish gear that gives you a significant edge in the game. Highly recommended (and don't use the nwah version!). This is probably the best change you can make after finding a good combat overhaul.

You can also bump the barter rates to more challenging levels to limit how quickly you break the economy. There's a mod out there that reduces the overly generous random quest rewards, too.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:44 pm

...Does not compute :huh:

Anyway, i'm quite happy with SkyRe with ASIS, Immersive Creatures and Deadly Dragons. The Riekling swarms can explode to nealry in the hundreds with just having 1 or 2 extra spawns with ASIS though, so careful with those settings. Especially if you have a system with weak processor.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:23 am

I already have most of the mods you all mentioned [I posted my mod list]. Though, I removed asis as it was too crashy, even on the default settings. Way too many mobs, falkreath hold [yes, the whole region] was completely unplayable. Even with max actors capped at 30.

Right now I am basically not collecting mob drops unless they are ingredients for a crafting skill, and not buying anything from merchants. Gold is almost [almost] not needed at this point, though I will need money to buy a house.

It's not too difficult, but not as easy as I was playing before. Every 2-3 days 3 dragons randomly spawn [thanks to deadly dragons].

I may consider getting Asis back for the AI, but I think ASIS AI won't use any skyre perks or spells [unless you like edit one of the mods in the editor or something sketchy like that]. Which is another issue I had with asis. In the end I was simply using asis to give the mobs potions, but they never used them until it was too late.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:43 am

you forgot the 'upgraded weapons and armours' mod i think.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:42 pm

Dragon Combat Overhaul along with Bellyaches Dragon Species and Deadly Dragons are must have if you want a challenge. Even the normal dragons will wreck you especially early in the game.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:59 am

Thanks for the info v1ld, Great to know Frostfall works with DP.

I use "EK_LimitedItems" to force myself not to spam potions. And coming from Witcher2, I am quite used to not relying on healing potion. Of course, it won't stop me from running in circles and waiting for my healer to heal me.

Knowing crojob has a pretty extensive mod list, I guess my question for crojob is...are you looking for "Dark Souls" type challenge (a few hits can kill), or "Witch2" type challenge (game mechanics limiting what you can do, similar to EK_RingLimiter). Last comment related to this topic...I started using a slightly modified "Immersive Creatures" esp (to up werewolves and hybrid damage) and use "nightmare" to increase the spawn count during night time encounters. With ENB making night time really dark, it could be quite a challenge to survive the night.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:27 am

Definitely use ASIS increased spawns; nothing is more difficult than battling a swarm of Draugr Deathlords or Falmer Shadowmasters.

Use it w/ no followers on legendary difficulty. If you insist on having followers, console setav all of them to be weaker than [censored].

Purposely wear weaker armor and use weaker weapons.

You don't need alot of mods to make the game difficult and you don't HAVE to use all the perks.

Q/T: What's with the pink hearts? Has gstaff lost his mind?

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:54 am

I'll try EK_LimitedItems. The potion and arrow limits sound nice. I am also thinking of not using the bandoliers with this character too. I have a horse which I can store loot in [since I do like to hoard loot and display it in my house.] I think its a decent compromise between being able to carry nothing away with me, and having a summonable instant chest [midas magic]. I still use the chest sometimes, mostly for mining. Ore weighs like 15 pounds and I have a carry weight of 92. Bear belts are 20 pounds. Etc.

Heh, I enabled the limited items mod, went in game [max arrows is 20], I had like 700 arrows, it just started to rain arrows.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:15 am

I saw a post on reddit.com's /r/skyrim subreddit yesterday complaining about legendary difficult being crap (which I sort of agree with, attrition is not my idea of fun). Top post was a bloke wishing that legendary had been "hardcoe" where enemies could be killed in a few hits - but so can you! The top reply to HIS comment was this:

Play on adept. Do not level your health. Ever. This should give you a difficult experience in vanilla skyrim, even with the M/S advantages, but not one that requires constant grinding away at enemies - I mean seriously bro, I just hit you with a sword, your arm should be over there - why am I hacking away at you like you were made of oak?

This also has the advantage it can be used on any system, not just PC.

Further to this, you can then add the mods that others have suggested to further increase the difficulty. I personally am playing using a custom-edited version of SkyRe, and I can't wait to try this out when I get home!

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:19 am

I believe Duke's mod works with ASIS too.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:01 pm

Not leveling health sounds interesting. However, you have to level something. Since I generally use all 3 stats, eventually I'm going to have a major advantage anyways.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:05 am

you might consider either of the two AI editor mods I keep on the SkyTweak page linked in my signature.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:35 pm

I did this (not leveling any health) on two characters. I leveled only Magicka on my mage and leveled only Stamina on my dual-wielding thief. I enjoyed these experiences very much. Both approaches made my games feel slightly different from each other, and from my other games where I leveled mainly health.

Talking about Stamina reminds me of two more mods I am using in my current game. One is called http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/32705/ by Huillam. This mod, as it says, stops health from regenerating. Along with this mod I use http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/32798 by NoobProduction. I use the version of this mod that not only reduces Stamina as you run but also begins to reduce health as well, after Stamina hits zero. The combined effect of these two mods is that if I keep running after my Stamina is gone my health drains...and does not come back. I travel everywhere by foot, so this has an enormous impact on my game.

I am really liking the synergistic combination of these two mods. When combined with Skyrim Redone (which also puts a greater emphasis on Stamina) I find I cannot just coast through the game on auto-pilot anymore. I have to pay attention to what I'm doing now, and I like that.

» Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:48 pm

Thanks for the hint, i'l add those to my game.