I think there should be no fast travel. You could only travel by yourself or in a mount or trough other "taxi-like" systems, such as wagons, ships and what not.

I also hope that TES V has a hardcoe Mode like the one in FO NV. I think that it's a great way to make it mroe realistic and enjoyable for RPGs fans.

That was right, I forgot about that. but I thought the casual gamer was younger than 13 years old. say from 8 years plus. I guess I am wrong there and the target is 12+. Thanks for reminding me.

Unless features can be toggled independently, I think the tricky part will be packaging features folks may want with features they don't. For instance, I find the compass very distracting and would love the option of not having something (other than features of the terrain) alert me that there is a point of interest behind those trees. However, if turning off the compass required playing in a mode that featured twitch combat or having to micromanage mundane "necessities," I might choose to use it. I'd like the game to present mental challenges, but I'm less eager for it to test my reflexes or willingness to do chores.

First few play-throughs, I thought it was the best RPG ever made. Then a year ago I played Morrowind and I can play Oblivion, but it's more-or-less meh now. And they can't do toggleable quest-markers for one reason. They'd have to make quest-givers give directions which're vague. I loved in Morrowind getting lost trying to find out where this strange Molag Mar was that I needed to go west of.

Please Bethesda, give me that feeling again. I'm begging you.

I agree with most poeple in this thread.
The game was just too dumbed down and held your hand way too much. It wasn't fun because of it.
-Immortal NPCs
-Quest Compass
-Fast Travel
-Ridiculously easy quest with no brain requirement
-The mainstreaming of the item system, merging pauldrons and gauntlets
-The dumbing down of the stat system, going from 10 major/10 minor to just 7..?
-The fact that there was essentially a level cap once you hit somewhere near 40, because of that ^

Those things were terrible.

I don't think "terrible" is the right word. As I said before, I like that the features like fast travel and essential NPCs are present, because they allow more people to experience the game (it's exactly the same sort of thing as adding Mac support, it's extra work to include a new demographic). I just want them to be optional because I, personally, don't need them.

On the other hand, I don't know where you got "ridiculously easy quest with no brain requirement" as a downgrade, since that's hardly new to the Elder Scrolls games (the number of "go to x, kill/find y" quests in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion is staggering).

I measure a quest difficulty by the difficulty of the enemies I'll have to kill, how hard the location is to find, how extensive a cave/fort/whatever is that I have to dungeon delve in, among other things.
Sorry, but Morrowind pretty much trumps OB in every aspect that I mentioned. Due to level scaling, no enemy is "hard". Due to the compass, nothing is hard to find, and even moreso while you're actually IN the dungeon. So how's that not easier?
"Follow the green triangle" isn't what I call difficulty. This is TES, not connect the dots, which is essentially what you are doing with the compass. Just following this red dot, then that red dot, then find the green dot. YAY.

As much as i love oblivion, i have to say i agree with this.....less hand holding would be better. I mean oblivion was rated as 15,are bethesda saying 15 year olds & older dont like a challenge...is it saying people are dumb?...i understand the concept of keeping people interested in a game,and to get them into it from the start etc ,but in my opinion,that does not require hand holding.
If people get everything handed to them on a plate ( so to speak ) people will get used to it....i think alot of games are getting easier.
Its to cater for everyone i suppose to make it more mainstream...but oblivion,fallout etc are successful games,& will continue to be...so more of a challenge is needed now,not more hand holding. If i die alot in a game,i'm doing something wrong,and i want to learn from that by challenging my intellect,not have a game say...oh well you tried...let me hold your hand for this bit.
I would rather get frustrated & learn from it.
Anyway just my view

I posted this in a different thread, but it applies here too:

There are easy workarounds for the quest arrow and compass (set the active quest to Nirnroot hunting for best results), and as for fast travel, it's easy to self-impose restrictions on it (only fast travel from town to town, only fast travel when you're on your horse, only fast travel to places you've already visited, etc.). So the handholding is something you consciously allow to take place.

That's a good point, but I actually feel that Morrowind was a less successful attempt at attracting the demographic that Oblivion finally did attract.

Even Arena, which was originally going to just be a series of gladiator battles before they got carried away, tries to blend CRPG gameplay with the more fast-paced, doom-style gameplay that was really popular back then.

I think that, each time around, they learn what confuses/ turns off more "casual" gamers that aren't used to the hardcoe RPG niche games.

On one hand, as has been said, it adds accessibility and allows gamers a simple-to-learn introduction into RPG gaming, getting them used to the system. I was a console gamer, who couldn't figure out games like Baldur's Gate. Morrowind introduced me to real RPGs and now I like them way better than other games. I've noticed other people who can say the same thing about Morrowind or Oblivion.

On the other hand, there's a line. A lot of what makes RPGs replayable and engaging is the confusing stuff; the stupid mistakes you can make, experimenting with the leveling system, finding your own way through mazes, puzzles, and an expansive world, etc. If you keep simplifying, it gets to the point where everything becomes straightforward and it turns into "RPGs for Dummies." Not saying Oblivion was quite there, but we sure are getting close.

P.S. Are we only going to get to see Flo once a month from now on?

Sant_Jiub, can you not realize how the game is centered AROUND these things though? Sure, you can ignore fast travel and simply walk everywhere wasting your time.
Or...you could have the Morrowind system, that did not include this route of travel, and take normal transportation via teleportation or sylt striders, or even boats? None of which exist in OB? It's centered around Fast Travel, which is wrong. That's my point.
I can't just ignore fast travel in OB and take a boat or carriage or sylt strider, because *dun dun dun* those things were left out of the game.
It's also pretty difficult to quest in OB without the compass because the game is based around it. I don't know if you have noticed or not, but finding what you are supposed to without the compass in OB is pretty annoying because of the general lack of direction NPC's give you. They don't need to, because you have a compass!

You completely missed the point. For example, I only fast travel between towns, or if I'm going back and forth to one place a lot, I'll walk there first. If I'm in the wilderness and I absolutely must warp back to town, I'll go to the chapel and make a donation (to simulate a spell of divine intervention). It's all done within the framework of Bethesda's system, but it's a wildly different experience.

Also, objectives are typically marked on your map (which is what your quest arrow points to, the new marker) when you get a quest. Meaning you can open your map, see the general location of your destination, and then walk there and wander until you find it. Again, mods aren't necessary for this, just a bit of imagination, and it works very well.

I don't actually see the difference between fast-travel and taking a boat, or Silt Strider.

They're both exactly the same, except one you can do in one area to certain other areas, and in another you can go anywhere from anywhere. The only small difference besides that is money.

Personally, I'd like it if you could walk up to a carriage, and then it opened up a map of destinations you could go to, and then you rode the carriage real-time to your destination. It'd be a lot better then suddenly there being a "Loading" screen and you're there.

I'm not saying this on a level of an argument, I'm asking the difference between the two on a level of reality and personal opinion.

The difference is, for me, and most people I've talked to about it, is the feeling of a living breathing world, rather than a world extremely small.
Cyrodill is actually bigger than Vvardenfell, but can you honestly say it feels that way? Nope, because you don't walk anywhere, or travel town to town, you simply warp instantly everywhere, therefore diminishing the feeling of an active, real world.
And Saint_Jiub, I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to "imagine" things like that. It's a gameflaw, and shouldn't be incorporated into the next game without a toggle to turn it on and off. And there NEEDS to be another method of transportation.

Really? You're complaining that a role-playing game makes you role-play? That's your argument? REALLY?

Ah, I see your point about it feeling more like a "living, breathing world".

I think the major factor is that Cyrodiil sort-of feels smaller because there aren't really any obstacles. You don't have huge mountains jutting out of the ground, or an area you have to move around in the middle. I mean, yeah, fast travel does make the world sort-of feel smaller, but I think there were a few other effects. There was the increased walking speed, the horses, etc. In a sense though, fast-travel can make the world feel much larger. If you only use fast travel to travel between cities you have no idea what's out there in the wilderness, I remember that from my first time playing the game. Destinations felt like they were miles away if you weren't used to walking.

I think that Bethesda's learned from this, but also we'll be playing in a mountainous region full of obstacles (if it's Skyrim ). You've got frozen lakes with vampires lurking under them, the highest peaks of Tamriel, canyons, valleys, etc. I also hope for a method of traveling different than fast-travel, but Cyrodiil was shaped sort-of like a ramp with raised edges. It does actually feel smaller than Morrowind, I agree. When you travel in Morrowind it feels like it takes Ages to reach somewhere on foot, but again, that may be the increased walking speed and the horses. But what I'm trying to say is that Cyrodiil was bound to feel smaller for many reasons, and fast-travel certainly didn't make Fallout 3 feel small. I felt like I'd never reach another city once I set out.

Speaking of which, is the game-world of Fallout 3 larger than Oblivion's? I'm curious.

Uh, no, that's not my argument. I think I've made my argument pretty clear, you're the one blowing it out of proportion. :shrug:
My argument is that the game is dumbed down. Countless threads about it over the years, countless complaints about it over the years, I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. Actually, the majority of posters on this forum think the game is hugely dumbed down from Morrowind. How can you even begin to say otherwise? Instant teleportation to any location in the game. Less skills. The merging of armor types, and a lack of customization that Morrowind offered. Do I need to go on? Really? REALLY?
Not going to go into every other detail that I've stated over the last 10 post we've both made, but I'm sure you get the general idea.

I'm not trying to argue that the game isn't simplified, and in some ways you're right-- in the next game, there should be more skills and armor types. But what I'm saying is that it's easy to play the game in a way that isn't "dumbed-down" in terms of exploration and travel. You seem to think that just because the system exists means you have to use it. If you don't like fast travel, do something about it. Use it in a way that's more like Morrowind's. The game is quite a bit more expansive and satisfying if you take a bit of initiative.

And just because a lot of people have an opinion doesn't mean it's right.

Yes I have done exactly that without anyone telling me. But it's still anoying to see that Red dot all the timme and I found it distracting and sometimes subconsicously following it. Yeah playing a marathon seesion and then 2am not a good thing lol.

So would be nice even in the option menu just turn compass off or on. At least in Fallout 3, you can turn the HUD off by dimming it all the way down, but then if you wanted the other things on, you are stuck.

I love the idea of making the game as easy as can be with 2 hands being held on you, but make it optional. You want non killable NPC, turn it on or off. Want Fast travel, turn it on or off. Want a compass, turn it on or off. I am afraid to say this, but I think Bethesda must stop putting too much time trying to have amazing graphics and concentrate more on game play.

Now you have a fresh market of new fans. Keep them. Don't forget who got you here in the first place. Don't also forget you new fans are now older, more mature and more wise. They do not need training wheels anymore. Making TES V like Oblivion would be insulting their intelligence now. You wanted a fresh market. Fine you got it. We stuck with you through this. Now please give back a little to the loyal fans.

Less work on graphics more work on making things optional. No reason why the compass can't be toggled on or off.

Why should I have to take "initiative" in a game when its predecessors did all of this right the first time?
You're right, you can take initiative and walk to cities and fast travel city to city. But that's not how Bethesda meant for Oblivion to be played, obviously, or they wouldn't have implemented fast travel. IT was meant to be used. And the way Oblivion is meant to be played, is dumbed down from Morrowind. That's my point.
It's not the fact that you can do that, it's the principal of the matter. I should be able to turn it off and do something else besides fast traveling. I want to be able to kill essential NPC's. I want to equip 2 different pauldrons and 2 different gauntlets. It's not in the context of the game to do so, therefore it's dumbed down.
And that's the last reply I'll make on the subject.
And Davor pretty much as the idea.

Oh, I completely agree that it should be toggleable, I'm just saying that it's not a game-breaker in Oblivion.

I don't really like the implication, though, that Oblivion was overly focused on graphics, especially since Daggerfall and Morrowind were both fairly advanced for their time. Graphics are clearly important to Bethesda-- that doesn't mean that it necessarily detracts from other elements of the game.

I think what detracted from Oblivion was a multitude of things. Sort of a death of a thousand stings deal. Each little annoyance or divergence from something that was once loved or once worked made some folks (such as myself) annoyed until it just became frustrating.

As for fast travel, as Betrayer of Humanity mentioned, the way the game was designed pretty much forced you to use fast travel, since quests from a single guild official could send you to 4 different major cities in under a few quests. Walking every time just gets pretty ridiculous, not to mention that as a mage I should have been able to teleport around anyways, but of course, that got removed because it was "redundant" with fast travel (it wasn't, considering it is instant and usable anywhere, as compared to fast travel which takes in-game time and can only be used outside).

Not to mention that I don't like fast travel as a whole anyways because of the way it makes me feel and how much better I think Morrowind (and Daggerfall) did traveling.

Perhaps if the land is INTERESTING (as in Fallout 3), I'll be less tempted to fast travel every time. But after going in to every dungeon I saw on my way, I quickly realized they were all the same and gave the same loot. I could get more loot faster by clearing a dungeon out, sleeping for a day or two, then going back in to kill the respawned monsters and loot the respawned chests/loot. Fallout 3 really turned this around with its dozens of seemingly random to literally random encounters and weird dungeons and locales. I was far less annoyed with Fast Travel in Fallout 3 because I didn't FEEL that I NEEDED to use it because I was having too much fun exploring. I felt fast travel was necessary in Oblivion BECAUSE of the world, even though Fast Travel in Fallout 3 was exactly the same as it was in Oblivion. Its all about perception caused by how well crafted the world was. In Fallout 3, I was getting from one interesting place to another with a lot of interesting stuff in between I'd miss if I fast traveled. In Oblivion, I was skipping boring/non-existent content to get to the real stuff. I should NEVER feel like I SHOULD use fast travel just to have fun.

I'm not saying use it or never use it, I'm saying use it within limitations. The game is still very playable that way.

There are many reasons for the game to not be playable, and fast travel was just a very small thing on a very long list.

Anyways, read my edited post for total clarification.

True but like Orzorn mentioned "quests from a single guild official could send you to 4 different major cities in under a few quests" which makes the game unrealistic as well. If they remove fast travel and go back to a MW kind of way, they should also fix the issue Orzorn was talking about. So if you got a quest from a certain guilhall their quests would bw whitin certain limits, near the city.