Making the game easy to play

Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:37 am

True but like Orzorn mentioned "quests from a single guild official could send you to 4 different major cities in under a few quests" which makes the game unrealistic as well. If they remove fast travel and go back to a MW kind of way, they should also fix the issue Orzorn was talking about. So if you got a quest from a certain guilhall their quests would bw whitin certain limits, near the city.

OMG Yes. The Cheydinhal Guildmaster should not send you to Bravil for a quest.
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:17 am

OMG Yes. The Cheydinhal Guildmaster should not send you to Bravil for a quest.


Exactly. I also think it was pretty stupid that in the Fighters Guilds you only got quests from the Anvil and Cheydinhall guildhalls (and later Chorrol). Mages Guilds was actually ok thanks to the recommendation system.
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Jade Payton
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:18 pm

When you have to "imagine."

Like pretend you teleported with a spell when you fast travel, or pretend the guy came in a caught you when a text box says "you can't sleep in an owned bed" when your original intention was to sleep in said bed, that's not "roleplaying" to me.

That's trying to overcompensate for an unrealistic, restrictive game. I do that kind of "imagination" work around in so many games, including Morrowind. But, I did it way more often then i felt like I should have in Oblivion. There were way too many blatant restrictions.

And I kind of disagree about the game really being playable without the fast travel. One of the things that gets me worn out and bored, whenever I try to pick up and play through Oblivion again, is the parade of monsters that trails behind me whenever I'm out of the wilderness. That, and the fact that there's really nothing out there to stumble across, besides the occasional wayshrine.

I refuse to use the fast travel and the wilderness becomes tedious and frustrating, so I simply stop playing.
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xx_Jess_xx
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:51 am

We've been over this argument many times.

Just accept that no Oblivion fan sees it's flaws.

Oblivion is a perfect god-send.

End of argument.

And Sir Stabs Alot, nice Avatar ^_^
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Poetic Vice
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:23 pm

We've been over this argument many times.

Just accept that no Oblivion fan sees it's flaws.

Oblivion is a perfect god-send.

End of argument.

And Sir Stabs Alot, nice Avatar ^_^

I don't want to play psychologist here, but people see us criticize Oblivion, get offended because they like Oblivion, and take it personally and argue, not for Oblivion, but for their own pride. So, they'll often exaggerate or deny things.

What people have to understand stand is:

If someone genuinely was disappointed by Oblivion and paid for it, thinking it was going to be a sequel to Morrowind, since that's how it was advertised, that person has a right to feel that way.

If you disagree, it's not because you're stupid and it's not because they're elitist. It's because DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES.

That's the problem with Bethesda trying to appeal to different demographics of fans at once. People were attracted to Oblivion for its fast-paced, accessible action. Other people, who are used to what TES was, were turned off from Oblivion because of those same things. It's not about "compromise" or "trade-off," it's the fact that the two games really do appeal to drastically different types of gamers, which is a fatally bad thing when they're part of the same franchise, imo.

If you were introduced to the series by Oblivion, and don't like what the older fans have to say, then voice your opinion. But to totally disrespect and call us elitist and to act like we're blind or we've committed some sort of crime just because we don't like your stupid game-- well, that's just immature. The point is that Oblivion was very different from its predecessors in many unpleasant ways. And, if you happen to be one of the people who loves Oblivion, but can't stand Morrowind or anything earlier because you were turned off by the fighting or graphics or whatever, you need to understand one important thing:

These games were here way before Oblivion. These fans were playing TES games before you ever heard of TES or probably were even born yet. Show some respect. Just because you like Oblivion and it sold the most copies doesn't mean it's a good game. It doesn't mean it's a bad game either, but certainly it's not set in stone anywhere that everyone has to like Oblivion just because it's the newest and most popular.

The attitude, "I love Oblivion, therefore everyone who doesn't love Oblivion is either blinded by nostalgia or hasn't played it," is just silly and rather annoying when you have to see it expressed every day by some kid who claims he couldn't get into Morrowind because the "graffixx sux!!1!"

To those who started with Oblivion, but gave Daggerfall and Morrowind, or at least Morrowind a fair play through- I know who you are and I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about those who completely disrespect the older games and their fans and, for some reason, feel they still have the right to voice their opinion about what should be done for the future of the series.
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Crystal Birch
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:43 am

Sorry, hamsmagoo, but I'm on your side. :disguise:

I get you didn't notice my sarcasm? I should invent a sarcasm detector for the internet. I'd make billions!
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Liv Brown
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:39 am

Sorry, hamsmagoo, but I'm on your side. :disguise:

I get you didn't notice my sarcasm? I should invent a sarcasm detector for the internet. I'd make billions!

I was agreeing with you and adding to your point.

On the other hand, this is exactly what I'm talking about with people taking comments too personally.

P.S. sarcasm detector = [/sarcasm] (putting that at the end of your post usually works)

But I KNOW you were being sarcastic, I was just adding to your point. I was talking about certain people who come on here and say we're misguided, nostalgic fools because we don't recognize Oblivion as the end-all to RPGing.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:02 am

I don't want to play psychologist here, but people see us criticize Oblivion, get offended because they like Oblivion, and take it personally and argue, not for Oblivion, but for their own pride. So, they'll often exaggerate or deny things.

What people have to understand stand is:

If someone genuinely was disappointed by Oblivion and paid for it, thinking it was going to be a sequel to Morrowind, since that's how it was advertised, that person has a right to feel that way.

If you disagree, it's not because you're stupid and it's not because they're elitist. It's because DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES.

That's the problem with Bethesda trying to appeal to different demographics of fans at once. People were attracted to Oblivion for its fast-paced, accessible action. Other people, who are used to what TES was, were turned off from Oblivion because of those same things. It's not about "compromise" or "trade-off," it's the fact that the two games really do appeal to drastically different types of gamers, which is a fatally bad thing when they're part of the same franchise, imo.

If you were introduced to the series by Oblivion, and don't like what the older fans have to say, then voice your opinion. But to totally disrespect and call us elitist and to act like we're blind or we've committed some sort of crime just because we don't like your stupid game-- well, that's just immature. The point is that Oblivion was very different from its predecessors in many unpleasant ways. And, if you happen to be one of the people who loves Oblivion, but can't stand Morrowind or anything earlier because you were turned off by the fighting or graphics or whatever, you need to understand one important thing:

These games were here way before Oblivion. These fans were playing TES games before you ever heard of TES or probably were even born yet. Show some respect. Just because you like Oblivion and it sold the most copies doesn't mean it's a good game. It doesn't mean it's a bad game either, but certainly it's not set in stone anywhere that everyone has to like Oblivion just because it's the newest and most popular.

The attitude, "I love Oblivion, therefore everyone who doesn't love Oblivion is either blinded by nostalgia or hasn't played it," is just silly and rather annoying when you have to see it expressed every day by some kid who claims he couldn't get into Morrowind because the "graffixx sux!!1!"

To those who started with Oblivion, but gave Daggerfall and Morrowind, or at least Morrowind a fair play through- I know who you are and I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about those who completely disrespect the older games and their fans and, for some reason, feel they still have the right to voice their opinion about what should be done for the future of the series.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)
I tried, and I try all the time, but it just usually starts arguments between and 6 other Oblivion fan boys going 'OHHHH MAH GOD UR DUMB CUZ U DUN LIEK OB MAN STOP HATING".
People just don't realize that there was a huge fanbase before Oblivion, and people loved Morrowind immensely. A lot of people regard Morrowind as the greatest game ever made. Oblivion just does not live up to that. It was a leap forward in some areas, but in a lot of areas, it was a huge leap backwards.
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Rob
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:17 pm

The difference is, for me, and most people I've talked to about it, is the feeling of a living breathing world, rather than a world extremely small.
Cyrodill is actually bigger than Vvardenfell, but can you honestly say it feels that way? Nope, because you don't walk anywhere, or travel town to town, you simply warp instantly everywhere, therefore diminishing the feeling of an active, real world.
And Saint_Jiub, I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to "imagine" things like that. It's a gameflaw, and shouldn't be incorporated into the next game without a toggle to turn it on and off. And there NEEDS to be another method of transportation.


I agree that additional methods of transportation would be good, but indeed just ignoring fast travel works quite well. And I don't see how doing something that gives you the "feeling of a living breathing world" can be a waste of time. Also, once you've built up your speed, it's not as though getting places takes all that long. I suppose a lot depends on whether you regard the journey or the destination as the point of gaming.
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Janette Segura
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:17 am

I agree that additional methods of transportation would be good, but indeed just ignoring fast travel works quite well. And I don't see how doing something that gives you the "feeling of a living breathing world" can be a waste of time. Also, once you've built up your speed, it's not as though getting places takes all that long. I suppose a lot depends on whether you regard the journey or the destination as the point of gaming.

My problem with manual travel in Oblivion is the parade of monsters that trails behind me. I can't stop for a second until I reach a guard unless I want to be fighting five monsters at once. Which means 5+ minutes of swing, block, swing, block, just because I felt I should be able to stop for a second and admire some piece of architecture.

Everywhere I go, there's tons of combat. The world is way too focused around combat.

I'm always fighting my way through an endless horde of enemies. It's unrealistic, like Onimusha or Resident Evil. It breaks immersion for me and reminds me that I'm not inside a world, but just a video game that is all about the action, no matter how I try to play.
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Alina loves Alexandra
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:28 am

To those who started with Oblivion, but gave Daggerfall and Morrowind, or at least Morrowind a fair play through- I know who you are and I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about those who completely disrespect the older games and their fans and, for some reason, feel they still have the right to voice their opinion about what should be done for the future of the series.


Damn it hamsmagoo! I had written a complete debunk and then you say this.

I still feel that authority should not grant immunity to critique, though, or that accessible fast paced action would have been bad for morrowind, even though morrowind combat already is fast or at least as fast as Oblivion, I feel the difference is smoothness.
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Andres Lechuga
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 am

I seldom obeyed the compass, because I'm intelligent, and I knew I didn't need to. If that was my inclination. On the other hand, I didn't like the hud compass, and I don't remember it being toggleable. I also missed asking for directions. Something I'm too self-reliant to do in the real world. It's good to know how the other half lives.
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Causon-Chambers
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:41 pm

Damn it hamsmagoo! I had written a complete debunk and then you say this.

I still feel that authority should not grant immunity to critique, though, or that accessible fast paced action would have been bad for morrowind, even though morrowind combat already is fast or at least as fast as Oblivion, I feel the difference is smoothness.

It isn't always a bad thing. And it doesn't always have to be a trade-off. A lot of times, I think the devs will just announce that it was a compromise because their bosses won't let them admit that they simply didn't give themselves enough time to put everything in the game that they meant to.

All in all, Oblivion does play more smoothly than Morrowind. I'll definitely give you that. The interface and combat were general improvements, though I do feel it was a big mistake to remove dice rolls and the chance to miss.

Oblivion's combat could have been just a smooth, even with the chance to miss.
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Patrick Gordon
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:40 am

The problem (still) is that your generalizations don't hold true for a lot of people. Like me. As stated before, started with Morrowind, love Morrowind, think Morrowind is the greatest game ever, STILL LOVE OBLIVION AND THINK IT'S A GREAT RPG.

And Oblivion's combat did have the chance to miss, in the sense that enemies who were faster than you could sidestep your attacks. Just recently I came across the highwayman near Chorrol with a level one character, and I couldn't keep track of that bastard for more than a couple seconds before he was behind me whacking on my backside because he was way, way, faster than my heavy-armored crusader. So instead of a simulated missing and a "whoosh" noise when you miss, and both combatants standing in one spot swinging at each other, you're both physically moving around, and if your character is slow (as mine was), it doesn't always go well for you.\

EDIT: And I will add, that Bethesda's philosophy of designing each game as its own game was well-established even at Morrowind's launch. Thinking that any entry in the game was going to be "GAME 2.0" would go completely against precedent for the series. I understand your argument from the perspective of "yeah, this is how most developers handle a franchise", but don't we love Bethesda precisely because they're NOT like most developers?
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roxxii lenaghan
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:10 pm

It isn't always a bad thing. And it doesn't always have to be a trade-off. A lot of times, I think the devs will just announce that it was a compromise because their bosses won't let them admit that they simply didn't give themselves enough time to put everything in the game that they meant to.

All in all, Oblivion does play more smoothly than Morrowind. I'll definitely give you that. The interface and combat were general improvements, though I do feel it was a big mistake to remove dice rolls and the chance to miss.

Oblivion's combat could have been just a smooth, even with the chance to miss.

Oblivion's combat was kinda like that because the npcs always ran around to your back to get an advantage but I agree that sometimes when you are about to hit an npc the should take a quick jump back or other things but you should hit more than at lvl 1 in morrowind when lvl 1 in tes v.
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Kelly Osbourne Kelly
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:37 am

It isn't always a bad thing. And it doesn't always have to be a trade-off. A lot of times, I think the devs will just announce that it was a compromise because their bosses won't let them admit that they simply didn't give themselves enough time to put everything in the game that they meant to.


I'm very happy you say that, because I completely agree :)

All in all, Oblivion does play more smoothly than Morrowind. I'll definitely give you that. The interface and combat were general improvements, though I do feel it was a big mistake to remove dice rolls and the chance to miss.

Oblivion's combat could have been just a smooth, even with the chance to miss.


I agree, although I don't feel that removing chance to miss was such a bad thing (a rant for another time), but it was definitely a mistake not to implement a chance/dice roll element in some other way, like critical strike/fail, or weapon damage intervals.
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biiibi
 
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Post » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:49 pm

I wouldn't necessarily say Oblivion is easier than Morrowind. It's a simpler game, certainly more user friendly, but does that make it easy? Not necessarily, a simple game can still be pretty difficult, after all, there's a reason why the term "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard". Indeed, the old games on Nintendo consoles that named the term were often very simple games, not just with very little in the way of plot, but were also fairly straight forward action platformer type games, but they were still extremely difficult. Of course, this does not mean that simple games are always difficult, and certainly complex games can also be difficult, it just shows that just because a game is simpler doesn't mean it's easier. In fact, I consider Oblivion to be a harder game than Morrowind, at least in combat, though this mostly comes in at high levels. The primary reason is, of course, due to level scaling. As in Morrowind, the game became incredably easier at high levels, since none of the enemies were strong enough to be a credible threat, and the biggest source of frustration that plagued low level characters, constantly failing, was no longer a problem once you had a high level. In Oblivion, since your enemies were always scaled to your level, you could still encounter credible threats even at high levels, especially if you didn't focus on skills that were useful in combat. On the flip side, the early game was harder in Morrowind since there would be a lot of places you could not safely go. Now, the sometimes vague directions and lack of a compass did make finding quest objectives somewhat more difficult, but that only applies when you don't know the game very well, which wouldn't be a problem if Morrowind was the kind of game you'll probably play through once and wouldn't touch again. But Morrowind is a game with great replay value, and I've played the game with many different characters, and for many quests, I don't even really need to look at the directions to know where to go anymore, a game like the Elder Scrolls can't afford to rely on that alone to provide difficulty. All in all, I'd say neither game was really that difficult, and I do hope future games in the series will be somewhat more difficult, and I believe there are ways to accomplish this without alienating a large portion of the potential market. Especially if they make the difficulty of the game more customizable, if nothing else, I hope the difficulty slider will actually do more than just control how quickly you and your enemies die.

It would also be nice if the various aspects of "handholding" like the compass (And I'm quite certain that's here to stay, since having a clear indicator pointing to your next objective seems to be the trend in games now, and it would be foolish of Bethesda to risk alienating the mainstream market.) could be toggled on and off. This would, of course, also require that the game give you normal directions, since letting you turn off the compass would not do any good if you still had to use it to find your way. There's no way Bethesda can hope to please anyone, but a few extra options may increase the demographic that can be pleased some what.

And yes, I enjoyed both Morrowind and Oblivion, and even Daggerfall, I know it may sound absurd, but there are those who are capable of liking one of these games without seeing the other as a horrible mockery of all that is good in the world that must be forever erased from existence lest it forever taint the gaming industry with its blight, I am one of these. I can even recognize that there may be aspects of these games I like which really aren't as good as they could have been without hating them for it. I guess the fact that I am capable of accepting and even enjoying things that are different might have also helped, as it meant that I didn't immediately hate Oblivion for not being exactly like Morrowind.
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Elea Rossi
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:35 am

The problem (still) is that your generalizations don't hold true for a lot of people. Like me. As stated before, started with Morrowind, love Morrowind, think Morrowind is the greatest game ever, STILL LOVE OBLIVION AND THINK IT'S A GREAT RPG.


Then, obviously I wasn't talking about you either.
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Emily Shackleton
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:02 am

To those who started with Oblivion, but gave Daggerfall and Morrowind, or at least Morrowind a fair play through- I know who you are and I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about those who completely disrespect the older games and their fans and, for some reason, feel they still have the right to voice their opinion about what should be done for the future of the series.

:shrug:

I dunno if you were mentioning me with the graphics thing, but the graphics were distracting the first few times I tried to play Morrowind, now I'm fine with them and I've experienced the game. I still love Morrowind and I find it to be a great game.

I'm 17, so... if were were talking about me I'm not a kid. :shrug:

And, by the way, I don't have a short attention span or that it's impossible for me to get past the graphics (which I did, eventually), it's just I'm an artsy person and I'm easily drawn into things visually. Especially because I've played Morrowind on a big resolution and it's even more stretched out than usual.
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Nikki Lawrence
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:07 am

Seriously, I'm talking about anyone who fits the description in my post on the previous page.

If you don't fit that description, then I'm not talking about you. This isn't Guess Who. If I was talking about a single person, I'd mention your name.

Generally, I'm talking about the people who browse the general forum, leave a nasty thread, then skulk back into "Oblivion Cheats, Hints, and Spoilers." I can remember certain instances in which someone posted something that made me really mad and then vanished forever.

P.S. I do have a short attention span and I still prefer Morrowind. As per my main point, which I put in all caps, it's more about different people having different tastes and less about character flaws or whatever.

It's the fact that, when two groups of fans have such radically opposing expectations as "I expect to spend a lot of time in the wilderness, exploring and searching" and "I expect to spend as little time as possible traveling," maybe two separate games might be nicer than one "compromise" game.

The point is that they make a lot of action games and action RPGs lately (Bethesda, that is), but it's been a while seen they made a real deep, unforgiving RPG.

EDIT: Actually, if you consider Morrowind that type of RPG, 2002 isn't that long, considering how often you see a new one of these games. Not counting 85-95, kind of the golden decade for geeky CRPGs.
I'd say Bethesda is due for one soon, though :drool:
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Céline Rémy
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:19 am

And Oblivion's combat did have the chance to miss, in the sense that enemies who were faster than you could sidestep your attacks. Just recently I came across the highwayman near Chorrol with a level one character, and I couldn't keep track of that bastard for more than a couple seconds before he was behind me whacking on my backside because he was way, way, faster than my heavy-armored crusader. So instead of a simulated missing and a "whoosh" noise when you miss, and both combatants standing in one spot swinging at each other, you're both physically moving around, and if your character is slow (as mine was), it doesn't always go well for you.\

But that has hardly anything to do with character skill, thats just you as a player not being able to hit. That isn't the same as having a chance to miss in a dice roll system. A talented FPS player (cough me cough) could nail that highwayman in the same situation you were in because of their enhanced reflexes with a controller. It isn't the same concept as an actual missing system.

And thanks Hircine, my old avatar stopped working and I was sad but this one is cooler anyway.
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Dj Matty P
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:01 am

I agree completely that they should make the newest game have more RPG elements. There isn't exactly a way to deny that Oblivion has less choices, less unique items, and the like. They just aren't there. It isn't exactly as enthralling (dialogue-wise) and doesn't give your character as much of a personality that you would get to choose from in Morrowind. I'm hoping that they expand on what they did in Fallout 3, which gave you tons of choices and different outcomes, but we can't be sure.

I do admit it though, more RPG elements would be nice. :)
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Vickey Martinez
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:41 am

But that has hardly anything to do with character skill, thats just you as a player not being able to hit. That isn't the same as having a chance to miss in a dice roll system. A talented FPS player (cough me cough) could nail that highwayman in the same situation you were in because of their enhanced reflexes with a controller. It isn't the same concept as an actual missing system.

And thanks Hircine, my old avatar stopped working and I was sad but this one is cooler anyway.


Isn't it more of a actual missing system, since you actually miss, instead of having to hit, and then somehow, not, hit? I mean just think about it, you have to connect with the enemy, to see if you connected with the enemy. Given that TES is in FP, it kind of dictates control over hit/miss, since you already control movement, Dice Rolls were originally a representation of the whole battle including movement, environment, basically everything, the FP perspective grants by necessity control over movement, which hit/miss is supposed to be a consequence of. FP perspective with dice roll hit/miss, creates a double bias against the player, because you have to hit with the player and then hit with the character, and player skill always trumps character skill, so in effect it becomes more essential that you hit every time as a player, or else you character wont even get the chance. Enemies don't have this double bias, given they have 100% player skill hitting, a computer will never miss calculate the distance, or strike time, it effectively has auto-aim. FP perspective with dice roll assumes everyone is a talented FPS player, which I am lead to believe on other subjects, should not be the target audience.
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Latisha Fry
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:26 am

snip


I agree, I don't get why a missing sytem would be needed if the combat system is similar to OB which is player controlled so if you fail it's your fault...
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Kristina Campbell
 
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Post » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:28 am

Isn't it more of a actual missing system, since you actually miss, instead of having to hit, and then somehow, not, hit? I mean just think about it, you have to connect with the enemy, to see if you connected with the enemy. Given that TES is in FP, it kind of dictates control over hit/miss, since you already control movement, Dice Rolls were originally a representation of the whole battle including movement, environment, basically everything, the FP perspective grants by necessity control over movement, which hit/miss is supposed to be a consequence of. FP perspective with dice roll hit/miss, creates a double bias against the player, because you have to hit with the player and then hit with the character, and player skill always trumps character skill, so in effect it becomes more essential that you hit every time as a player, or else you character wont even get the chance. Enemies don't have this double bias, given they have 100% player skill hitting, a computer will never miss calculate the distance, or strike time, it effectively has auto-aim. FP perspective with dice roll assumes everyone is a talented FPS player, which I am lead to believe on other subjects, should not be the target audience.

I think more of the fact that, since it is in a first-person, real time perspective, the dice-roll system can be exploited by physically dodging an attack.

However, replacing the dice-roll system with a purely reflex-based system isn't an acceptable solution, when, in my opinion, RPGs are more of simulators than action games. As in, it's more about simulating the actions by rolling dice, rather than actually living out the actions.

I would, personally, rather live with an exploitable system and try not to exploit it. Especially when Oblivion's attempt to balance that flaw out ended up just creating a system that was exploitable in other ways and also uncharacteristic of RPGs. I mean, Oblivion's combat, fun as it was, worked almost totally independently of the leveling system. It was way too strongly influenced by the reflexes of the player.
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Haley Cooper
 
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