You know what I am surprised about? With all the people defending Oblivion, what happened to how they play now? We only have a few comments about How they like the casual play (compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall) and if they still prefer it now or not. Did all these people go? Are they only going to come back when TES V is announced and playing it?

I expected more comments from Oblivion fans and how or if their play style has changed.

Well I am willing to defend Oblivion, but I don't know if I count as one because I prefer Morrowind (not by much, I just found it more mystifying and enthralling)

God, no kidding. Thisx10000.
I hate that about Oblivion. I can't anything without getting attacked by a damn wolf or some [censored] imp coming out of nowhere. So aggravating. I felt like I was in World of Warcraft powering someone through a lower level instance with all the mobs trailing behind me. WHY DOES A WOLF CHASE ME FOR 7 MINUTES.
I think they should make TES:V more like an RPG, and less like an Action/Adventure game like Oblivion. Oblivion just didn't seem very RPG'ish to me. I mean, no dice rolls for combat? Lmao, that's like, the principal of an RPG. Removing subtle things like that really removes a lot from the game experience.
And no, an enemy "side stepping" you is not the same thing as a chance to miss. A chance to miss is just that; a chance to miss. An attack that missed. Not an attack that was sidestepped.

What. Because wolves/imps are so different from rats and cliffracers. Or rats and imps in Daggerfall. If you hate that about Oblivion, fine, but don't pretend for a second that it's any different from any other game in the series.

As for your second point, when I miss, it's because either I wasn't actually aiming at my target (or they were too far away) or because they dodged it. So how exactly is an attack that was sidestepped not a miss? Speed/agility play a more tangible role, that doesn't mean the stats are unimportant.

Actually they didn't spawn on the road nearly as often as in Oblivion.

It is different. Wolves/imps don't get stuck in trees/the air...

The point is that they're all placed in perfect 10-foot intervals of each other, in every direction. But, more annoyingly, they never give up chasing me.

I literally feel like I have a parade behind me anytime I go anywhere. I get so sick of stopping to fight them because there are too many and they all take so long to kill, especially when the minotaurs start to appear.

This makes me dread traveling from city to city. I can't take my time and stop to explore because every time I stop for a second, I'm dog-piled by five wolves.

Yeah, walking around in Morrowind is definitely much more peaceful thank walking around in Oblivion as far as getting mobs trailed on you. Not even remotely the same.

Creatures are few in number around Oblivion's landscape. In Morrowind, it's cliffracer island. Try swimming in Morrowind, and it's a slaughterfish pool. The mobs only come about if you run around ignoring your (fast)enemies for far too long because you will never find a mob all in one spot in Oblivion. I can't say the same for cliffracers/slaughterfish. Killing a wolf is as simple as a power attack and then there are no more in the immediate area. Don't try pretending cliffracers and slaughterfish in Morrowind were less annoying than any creature wandering around Oblivion or that Morrowind had a more peaceful landscape.

#1, I don't have to argue the point that Morrowind had a more peaceful landscape, because that's called "personal opinion".
Second off, I never had a problem with Cliff Racers. Every few minutes getting attacked by a cliff racer>constant trailing of 3 wolves and a few bears. I'm sorry, but the "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY OBLIVION IS INFERIOR TO MORROWIND IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER" fan boy elitism thing is really getting old. Oblivion is not better than Morrowind in every way, and neither is Morrowind to Oblivion. Everytime someone says something negative against Oblivion, a swarm of Oblivion fan boys flock to the call and say 'UHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOT RLY U HAVE NO PROOF, GIVE ME A DETAILED anolYSIS' from a member of this forum that's been here for like 9 days spouting off about how Oblivion is a step ahead of Morrowind in every way, shape, and form, and how TES:V should be an MMO with console multiplayer aspects too. :rolleyes:
Was that a rant? Sure was. Please tell me how wrong I am, I await it.
inb4 quotes of this with replies like "you're the elitist bro".

Really?

Because I was just playing Morrowind and it's not like that at all. Creatures don't follow you very far, and cliffracers die in three hits or less at level 2 with a diplomat character, and I generally don't run into more than four cliffracers between any two reasonably close cities. Unless, I'm going from Balmora to Caldera, in which case, it's 0 pretty much always.

Honestly, in Oblivion, I remember every journey being a minotaur every ten feet in the south and a wolf every ten feet in the north. Each minotaur takes a good 30 seconds to kill at least and it adds up because those things pile up. I remember giving up fighting at all and never being able to stop until I reached a city, then a battle ensued at the gate, because unlike in Morrowind, creatures never gave up following me. I remember almost every mundane journey from city to city to be a big race to the gates.

It's hard to believe I just imagined it being this way, since it's one of the biggest things that keeps me from getting back into the game whenever I try to. You have to understand I never use the fast travel. I was always walking, so it really added up.

This really seems like just a fact of the game to me and I find it surprising that you seem to notice the opposite. Are you using any mods, or do you fast travel often?

It's one thing if you don't mind or even prefer the more persistent AI of Oblivion's creatures and their noticeably bigger health bars. But to deny it and claim the opposite? Now we're no longer debating opinion. Now we're debating reality.

I don't understand the "more persistent AI" thing though. Having spent a great deal of time in the Morrowind CS, I can honestly say I've never seen nor heard of an AI range. Once they're hostile, they don't let up.

And I can say that it's not "every few minutes" getting attacked, it's nearly constant. On the road, or off of it. We are debating reality, but I'm not sure I'm the one who's mistaken.

First point: Guess I was wrong about the AI letting up. It's probably due to animals getting stuck on things all the time in Morrowind. Either way, I can always lose something I can't kill in Morrowind. Not so much in Oblivion.

Second point:
There's a difference between having to whack a rat in the head now and then and stopping every minute to hack away at a tank. You really have to spend a lot of time in Morrowind instead of the CS to notice the difference. Walk through the wilderness. It's not a constant battle.

The only tanks I encounter in the wilderness are Minotaur lords. Wolves, spriggans, mountain lions, trolls, etc. all die easily.

edit: Oh, and certain goblins are also tanks.

Exactly hams, I always found it much easier to lose a hostile creature in Morrowind than in Oblivion. It's damn near impossible in Oblivion considering that wolves have insanely fast speeds. At least in Morrowind most hostile creatures were decently slow and you could easily outrun them with a good athletics/speed skill. In Oblivion, even fighting wolves is a pain in the ass. I block, and then back away, and no matter how damn far I back off, his lunge attack still hits me. That's stupid. Even at 100 speed/athletics, a wolf can seemingly jump like 15 feet from a standstill.

Okay, we've gotten to the point in the evening where we're arguing whether bad NPC pathfinding makes for a better gameplay experience. I think I'm going to take the rest of the night off while that realization hits all of you as well. :bolt:

I've read stranger things.

As much as I would love to argue for the entire night, I have to go to sleep in about 20 minutes. I have to go back to school starting tomorrow instead of spending my nights arguing as I have been for nearly the past 3 months. :sadvaultboy:

I honestly don't care if it's a flaw or intentional.

I enjoy traversing the wilderness in Morrowind and dread it in Oblivion for that simple fact of being able to lose my enemies.

For such a highly-advanced AI system, you'd think the creatures of Oblivion would decide eventually to chase slower prey rather than follow a hardly-appetizing metal-clad man around for 12 game hours.

Now that we've returned to the realm of opinion:

In Morrowind, you can either lose your enemy or they catch you and kill you.

In Oblivion, your enemies scale to you, therefore always matching your speed and they're impossible to lose if you're not near water. So there's always a parade of monsters behind you whenever you choose to flee instead of fight. (EDIT: @Betrayer of Humanity: your post brought back painful memories of being donkey punched by wolves while running for my life)

I prefer the former.

If the AI has decent pathfinding in TES V, please make the stupid animals give up after a while. And while we're at it, only attack me if I invade their space.

I do think the aggro-distance is higher in Oblivion, because they view distance is higher. However, enemies fade into view slower than the scenery, and some enemies aggro distance is farther than how far you can see them.

Cliff racers were a HUGE problem in Morrowind, although in limited numbers they make it more interesting. It's a way of harassing the player when he's in the wilderness.

But in addition to the increased aggro distance, the enemies in Oblivion scale to you, so you're never just fighting that one-hit creature. You get lions after wolves, and bears after lions and minotaurs after bears. Certain enemies should have certain areas of operation, regardless of level.

Actually this AI behavior of fleeing is implemented in the engine but not utilized fully.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7382 by just tweaking these two settings:
fAIFleeFleeMult from 0.3 to 1.5
fAIFleeHealthMult from 7.0 to 56.0
fixes it.

I have to say the experience is pretty nice. I installed it recently. I had two of these foragers, I hit one, it escaped and I hit the other and it escaped too. When I followed them, they escaped further. After that I turned my back and was walking away, I heard them stalking me. I went over them and they escaped again. Pretty fun stuff.

I agree with this 100%. :goodjob:

To answer the general question, I would say that I've become a little more 'hard-core' since playing Oblivion. Particularly after joining this forum and finding that my personal tastes are similar to those who prefer the unforgiving island of Vvardenfell, and the merciless province of High Rock.

It's not that I don't agree, I think that removing dice roll from hit/miss was a right move given the perspective of the series. However, not implementing it in some other way, like what happens when you hit (dmg amount, critical suc/fail), is the real failure of Oblivion in regards to player/character skill.

Best post in a while. :tops:

I guess, then, the big thing we've learned between Morrowind and Oblivion is that, while failure can turn people off from a game, total protection from failure can turn people off just as easily. The little details may fall to the wayside if there's any sort of legitimate way to miss/dodge.

It's hard to find a happy medium when you're openly trying to please two different audiences at once. And even though Bethesda's publishers won't let them admit it; I hope they're realizing this fact and doing something about it.