If the title was a little ambiguous, my main point is on Expansions.

Now, before you go "Oh my god Proditus, the game isn't even out yet and you care about expansions," I'm just curious to hear what other people might like to see in an expansion. In addition, it might be good to take a look at what we think Bethesda is capable of in terms of expansion potential.

In Morrowind, the first expansion, Tribunal, was relatively small. It added a new city in its own pocket of space, two main dungeons, and a questline to tie them all together. Likewise, the first expansion to Oblivion was barely more than DLC. The Knights of the Nine added a new faction, a new settlement, and a few other areas dotted around the map for the sake of a large questline.

If both of the previous Elder Scrolls games are any indication, the big content comes in expansion two. First, this assumes that Skyrim will have a second expansion, or even one for that matter. For the sake of consistency, let's assume two. Morrowind's second expansion, Bloodmoon, added Solstheim, a new landmass about 1/4 the size of Vvardenfell, the main island. Oblivion's second expansion, Shivering Isles, also added an island. Except this one was in a plane of Oblivion separate from the main landmass. This was also 1/4 to 1/3 the size of Cyrodiil.

So, though I'm hesitant to say so with only two prior cases, there seems to be a pattern in expansions. There is a first expansion that is mostly quest-related. It treads the water and adds a little extra spice to a game world that is already established. Morowind's first expansion had us go to another place in Morrowind, Oblivion's first expansion had us go to new locations in Cyrodiil. Then the second expansion comes along, which is a big landmass expansion. It adds a new section to the map/new map altogether that is anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 the size of the default game world. This new place is supposed to be foreign and different, a game within a game as it were. Solstheim, though only off the coast of Vvardenfell, brought players away from Dark Elf society and showed you things from the Nord side of life, replacing volcanoes and Dunmer architecture with snowy forests and buildings out of Scandinavia.. Shivering Isles brought you to a plane of Oblivion, an environment completely unlike anything in Tamriel.

Now, let's apply this "pattern" to Skyrim. For our first expansion, we can assume that it will take place in Skyrim or some extension of it. Because it is mostly quest-based, it is unlikely that we will see a new large landmass. The second expansion, though, should take us somewhere new. Somewhere that's different than Skyrim. Which brings me to...

Possibilities!
Before I consider the possibilities, actually, let's rule certain possibilities out. What we probably will not see:
- Another plane of Oblivion. The story of Oblivion is done, and the planes of Oblivion are supposed to go back to background lore. The deeds of Martin also make going back and forth much more difficult, now that Daedric Princes can't just open portals anywhere they please.
- Cyrodiil. Oblivion just ended. I think it's highly unlikely that we will return to something so recent, or that an expansion could really bring anything new to a game we've just played.
- Umbriel. I believe the Infernal City and Lord of Souls novels will resolve that issue. It seems like something that the books should keep for themselves, which makes them special I suppose. Also consider what 140 years may do to a city such as that.
- Summerset and Valenwood. The Elves don't take too kindly to people from the Empire. Until the actual events of the game, Skyrim is a loyal province. I doubt the Elves care about later circumstances, because they probably don't care for Skyrim itself either.

Alright, so we've had a look at what an expansion won't be. However, going by the standards set by expansion two, there must be some sort of new landmass that isn't a part of Skyrim. So, real considerations:
- Solstheim. I'm a little hesitant on this one. I could actually see it as material for a first expansion rather than a second. http://theopinionatedgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/TamrielMap1.jpg, Solstheim is a proper expansion for Vvardenfell. But even though the game worlds of Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all around the same size, geographically, Solstheim is much smaller compared to Skyrim than Vvardenfell. It looks smaller than some of Skyrim's holds. In addition, the environment isn't that different than Skyrim either. There might be a few Dunmer cities, but that doesn't excuse the same frozen tundra and pine forest environment. For a first expansion though, that might be cool, but its size would have to be smaller than its appearance in Morrowind, which could upset people.
- Hammerfell. It's on the border of Skyrim. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, but it just looks too big to happen. It's bigger than Skyrim itself. It'd be a game of its own, not an expansion.
- Black Marsh. It's not impossible, but I'd say too far away and too big. It's on the other size of the continent, and it's nearly as big as Skyrim itself.
- Elsweyr. Same reasons as Black Marsh, though it only measures about 60% the size of Skyrim. I think this would happen before Black Marsh.
- Morrowind. Probably not Vvardenfell, or even the whole province, but it'd be nice to see the western half of the mainland. It's adjacent to Skyrim, it's foreign and different, and we haven't seen it in a game yet. The only factor against it is that we've been to the province of Morrowind before, but we've never been able to explore any of the mainland regions (outside of Mournhold).
- High Rock. This seems like the most likely candidate to me. On a map, it measures about 50% the size of Skyrim, which I think is about as far as they'd go in terms of size. It's on the border, you could travel between them on foot. There are only two main points against it. First, that it was already in a game. I don't think that's as hindering as it seems though. Daggerfall was made a long time ago, and I doubt High Rock look remotely similar in Skyrim as that game. But second, there has never been an expansion in another province before. Solstheim wasn't a part of Morrowind, but it isn't a province, it's just a territory. Shivering Isles was in a plane of Oblivion. They dodged the bullet in that game because the point of Elder Scrolls IV is your ability to travel into Oblivion. Provinces are usually good game material. But it's worth considering that Daggerfall already took place in High Rock, and I doubt that they'd release an independant game that takes place in a province we've already been to.

I'd personally love to see an expansion take place in High Rock. It'd work well with Skyrim. Perhaps with the unrest happening in Skyrim, the Bretons may begin to consider their role in the empire as well. That'd make a good subject of exploration in a province that has never been shown in enough detail capable on modern systems. But if I had to pick a place other than High Rock, I'd go for mainland Morrowind. I've been dying to see that place, considering we never did in Morrowind the game, and I think it'd add nicely to the nostalgia for those of us who have played Elder Scrolls III.

Oh my god Proditus, the game isn't even out yet and you care about expansions.

Thanks. I figured I was crazy myself for even thinking of this. But the thought of expansion material has just been driving me crazy. I told myself a while ago to refrain from making poor speculation threads, but it would appear that I've given in

Hoping Highrock is the big expansion. Makes the most sense, and all you'd have to do is cross the boarder to get there. Highrock is hardly worthy of it's own game, too. Way too small.

Hoping to see lots of fancy Victorian and Gothic architecture if that's the case, too :poke:

Lol I really don't care one way or another but I just had to say that line after you said it in your OP :tongue:

I don't want to visit any of the other provinces in an expansion at all, unless it's just a small out-of-the-way island. Leave big provinces for later games.

That said, I don't want to go back to Solstheim. I've been there already. I don't really care how it has changed, especially since I'll have spent the entire game in Skyrim, I don't want to go to an island which is essentially a smaller toned-down version of Skyrim.

I don't think we necessarily need to rule out another Daedric realm. It's not impossible for portals to Oblivion to be opened, just so long as its opened with friendly intentions and in a way that Daedra cannot escape from it, then it's possible. Still, a Daedric realm is kind of too obvious and it would become something that everyone would expect, what with two games in a row having big expansions based around Daedric realms. Not an unwelcome tradition to pick up, but I don't think they'll go for that.

So, I don't really know what we'll be doing in Skyrim. Hell, maybe we'll be in Skyrim the entire time, but just in a huge area that we somehow have not explored yet.

Any other province and I'd agree. But high rock is very small in comparison to the other provinces, from a lore standpoint it sounds quite boring, and has a very linear shape. Wouldn't be good for a full game at all. But perfect for a skyrim big expansion.

I'd rather there were no DLC's and they'd just focus on one or two legitimate expansions.

I still say we need Akavir as one massive expansion. If not, then I want one of the future games to be set in the entire continent of Akavir and so on. I wants me some Akavir!!!!!!

An Akavir expedition would be indeed quite epic. Probably couldn't be covered with a single expansion, though.

To me, it's always been a question of "If it must be somewhere, then where is most likely?" It's not gettin any easier, to be sure. We've explored a good chunk of Tamriel so far, namely everything in the north and the central province Cyrodiil. If we want to go somewhere next to Skyrim, it'd have to be from a game we've already played, unless you don't want to rule out the monstrously large province of Hammerfell. If it has to be a province, it'd have to be High Rock, the runt of all the provinces and the only one small enough to cover completely as an expansion, or a chunk of Morrowind.

I suppose you're right that another Oblivion realm is possible, but it's highly unlikely. Oblivion was Oblivion's thing, and I don't think it'd be proper to keep that in a game where Oblivion is nothing more than background details. This is about Aedra, and I think a trip to Aetherius would be more likely than one to Oblivion again

That's why I would love it to be two expansion in one or three expansions in one *drool*

[quote name='Proditus' timestamp='1297666661' post='17172638']
To me, it's always been a question of "If it must be somewhere, then where is most likely?"
Return to Pale Pass it is then.

Already did Hammerfell for a whole game so probably not best to try to do a whole province in an expansion and especially not a province we've already explored. Hammerfell really isn't that big, it was just big in Daggerfall from the scale. I love Daggerfall, biggest game world every created huzzah!

High Rock is something like 200 miles across.

I vote for Akavir / Pale Pass
I enjoyed that little ES:IV mission for the Bruma lady to go to Pale Pass. I find the Akaviri very cool.

I want seaborne adventuring in an expansion. A great Nordic expedition via longboats. Hundreds of longboats.

Given the amount of content they've had in the previous expansions (Not just landmass) I think a smaller island would be better than a province. Maybe PARTof a province, though, such as High Rock from the Northeast corner to Orsinium.

There will be DLC of course. For the sake of console players who can't get mods. But from what I gather, they were all worked on around the same time. All of the DLC for Oblivion had numbers, but they were released in a random order. It's worth noting that Knights of the Nine was included in the DLC numberings, though it contained much more content than the others and I actually got mine in a nice box at retail.



If Elder Scrolls were an MMO, I could see an Akavir expansion. MMO games love to add huge worlds like that. But for a single-player game, I couldn't see it being anything other than the main focus.



Scale in the game =/= scale on a map. In the game based in Skyrim, the expansion material, if it takes place in the same map, must be properly proportioned. That is why you can't have High Rock as big as it was in Daggerfall or Solstheim as big as it was in Morrowind, because they are much smaller compared to Skyrim. So, if we know the size of Skyrim, then we can assume that an expansion taking place in High Rock would be about 50% the size of Skyrim's default game world.

How about a failed Akavir expedition that only lasts a little while before a full retreat ends the expansion?

It could be a preview of the Akavir centered ES:VI

That would seem slightly disappointing, actually. To see it but you're unable to stay.

Consider big expansions as being subgames of the normal game. They must work in the same fundamental way, just smaller. A smaller game within the larger game that conforms to the same basic principle of what it takes to be an Elder Scrolls game. If you want a preview of Akavir, but be unable to explore it fully, that could only work for a quest-centric first expansion.

If it's one of the realms of Oblivion I would want it to be Vaermina's real, Quagmire, but instead of having it change every few minutes, have the realm divided into a number of realms /levels/circles/ territories, the next more terrifying than the last.

Maybe the realm of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sanguine. :hubbahubba: :celebration:

Nope. Obviously the elder scrolls series has become smaller in scope.

In arena you could travel across all of tamriel, and it was HUGE, so high rock still would have been one of the smallest provinces.

The size hasn't changed, just the way they are represented in the game. Any province is perfectly capable of being made as it's own game bigger than any game ever (Except maybe Arena, which if I recall is supposed to be infinite). The scale is not constant throughout the series at all.

I think it could work.
Imagine the Nords (or whatever Empire is left) have some reason to invade Akavir again. Part of the quest could focus on the sailing - or maybe not...
Then it could be a full blown military base on the Akaviri shore, with missions leading up to a climactic battle with as many characters as the Creation engine can handle (more than the Bruma gate I hope :facepalm:)

I'm kinda thinking along the lines of Operation Anchorage for FO3.

Of course I don't know how this would fit in with lore...are the Akaviri alive and well in Skyrim's time period?

Well, I better update the tamriel map so it's all to the scale that you believe to be true

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1930/daggerfallmap.jpg

There we go, it's all to proportion now.

Vvardenfell and Cyrodil were made almost to scale to each other. Judging by current gaming trends, this is going to be the scale the rest of the TES games are made at. High Rock is not 200 km across. If skyrim is say, 16 square km, highrock would logically be even smaller. Heck, you could see most of the other provinces in oblivion and they conformed to the scale of cyrodil. While there may be enormous inconsistencies between the games, the newest game is always the defacto reference.

Yeah, that would be a such tease. Akavir is big with it's own races and history. It would have to be it's own game. (That would be so awesome). Starting that game with an expedition from Tamriel sounds great, but who would ever sign up for that? The men that settled in Akavir before were eaten by the Serpent people.

Maybe we can have an expansion on some undiscovered islands in the sea of Ghosts between Atmora? But I think our best bet would be High rock or some region of Hammerfell.