There seems to be this common idea that Mannimarco is an all powerful Lich and that the one in Oblivion couldn't possibly have been the real deal. (I know the whole theory of him splitting into two beings...doesn't really bring a lot to this topic). People say he was a skeletal Lich in Daggerfall, but I disagree. I think it should be fully possible for a powerful Altmer sorcerer to sustain his flesh with nothing but basic necromancy for hundreds of years.

The only evidence in favor of the Lich hypothesis is a very old, very biased account known as http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms. It reads like something that would get read to little children at night to frighten them. While Mannimarco himself confirms many aspects of the tale, such as knowing Galerion and having been a Psijic, he never seems to have actually been a Lich to me.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mannimarco has been cited by many as actually being grim reaperish or skeletal, but upon closer examination the parts of his body which are showing appear to be covered in flesh. Namely, his hands. They are more like the color of a High Elf's hand than of a skeletal hand. His eyes glow eerily, which many cite to be evidence of supernatural lichdom, but may I remind you that this could easily be a magical effect such as Night Eye, for the intimidation effect on any visitors.

We know that Altmer live longer natural lifespans than Dunmer do, and we see several mortal Dunmer sorcerers who have lived to be into their thousands. Baladas and Dratha are very old, and Divayth Fyr is said by some to have been contemporary with Sotha Sil. If that is the case he could have possibly been as old as 4,000! Mannimarco, at most, would have been a little over 1,000 years old at the beginning of Daggerfall. Considering the natural Altmer lifespan is longer than the Dunmer one, it stands to reason that an Altmer sorcerer using similar magicks to a Dunmer sorcerer would extend his life exponentially longer than the Dunmer. Even an Imperial, Janus Hassildor, is believed by many to be as old as he is due to sorcery. The fact is that he's a vampire, but the common populace simply assume he's a powerful sorcerer, and that explains his longevity. Nobody seems to question it. That makes me believe there's some sort of precedent on Tamriel for human sorcerers to live a very long time, perhaps into their low hundreds.

It would appear that necromancy and/or sorcery can exponentially increase any of Tamriel's sentient races' lifespans. I suppose even an Orc or a Khajiit could live to be well over 100 if well versed in certain arts. Granted, Mannimarco has one disadvantage over beings such as the Telvanni - he doesn't live a life of luxury. The guy has been a fugitive, on the run from the authorities for most of his advlt life. On the other hand he's an equally powerful mage to beings such as Divayth Fyr and Dratha. Still, his Altmer heritage must account for some of it.

I just don't believe him to be a Lich. Not because there's evidence that he isn't - you can't prove a negative after all. It's because there's no strong evidence or reason that he is. I think he was always just a mortal sorcerer, except for that part of him that became a god. Powerful, yes. Cunning, certainly. Skilled, without a doubt. But flesh and blood all the same. He reminds me in a way of the character of Darth Nihilus from Knights of the Old Republic II. That being had powerful necromantic abilities, and was thought to be a phantom or a sort of lich by many, and yet when his mask is removed one character remarks "He's just a man. Nothing more." (In Mannimarco's case, just an Elf, but you get the point.)

Read the poem http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mannimarco.shtml read passage 7,and readhttp://www.imperial-library.info/gttpo/index.shtml.Hope this helps

This is very interesting, and thought-inspiring, but I'm simply in denial. I don't believe he is dead because Him, Fyr, Sotha Sil and Vivec are my four favourite TES Characters. 2 are dead, and one is trapped in an infernal hell hole. I don't want the only one left to be dead to, and at my own hand ;_;

Indeed, it makes sense. I believe I have read this idea before, and I agreed with it at the time as well. Though the commonly agreed upon theme is that he is a lich, there is no sure proof. So yes, I would back you up on this

A question, though: after the Dragon Break (which according to many I only know the most basic part of), Mannimarco both died and became a god (the necromancer's moon). If everything that happened at the end of Daggerfall is true, then what must whatever sentient remains of Mannimarco feel if he is dead, god, and mortal? Would this give his mortal body special power, or what effects does this have?



EDIT:



Actually, the first is the same source that he stated was biased (and it is), and the second is most likely derived from that source. So neither prove anything, sorry.



He's not dead, he's a moon Don't worry, the agreed upon deal with the Oblivion Mannimarco is that there's a very good chance that Worm King was a fake.

Take the information I gave as you see fit,I truly believe that he was a lich given he was the king of necromancers(now god of worms)and given he is extremly good at magic,whose to say that he can use illusion to appear to have skin for mortal transaction?

A valid point; I in no ways intended to offend or disrespect you. I was simply pointing out that both of those sources were already discredited by Hairdo, and if you wanted to argue their validity then you should speak to him (though I might join in).

Indeed, there is nothing saying that he was not, and in a world of magic there is nothing you can say for certain on such a topic. Both points seem entirely plausible, and his universal regard as a lich speaks for much. However, he wasn't very lich-ish in Oblivion (much better in Daggerfall), and I support that he became a god or died.

Much of an opinion decision, really.

Agree;I respect your opinion,We really won't know the full truth unless Bethesda tells us.Another tibit to readhttp://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/path_transcendence.shtmlin Entry 4 Celedean says that he was visited by his great Sovereign(possibly refreing to Mannimarco AKA God of Worms because Celedean was a necromancer and Mannimarco is their "Great Sovereign"),and the great Sovereign gave him the secret to lichdom.Although we wouldn't know if he would of succeding in becoming a lich because our DB charcter killed him.

Ah, very interesting. I agree that he is talking about Mannimarco, but I question the validity of that document. Not only is it written by a biased individual, but he said that in his prayers Mannimarco visited him and told him. Now, this may just be the cynic in me, but I could interpret that in numerous ways. Perhaps the idea struck him after endless research, and he just so happened to be praying at the time. Then he would certainly attribute it to his god. I would trust it a bit more if he described Mannimarco at all, or how exactly he "visited" him, and certainly more if he wasn't a half crazed necromancer living in a cave, his one weakness an hourglass that he keeps so secretively on his person

With the capabilities of gods actually appearing, I think it'd be safe to say that people would distinguish between receiving a divine inspiration and a divine visitation.

But the ability to receive prayers is indeed generally a trait of godhood.

Also, whoever said Mannimarco didn't know how to become a Lich? Just because he might not be one doesn't mean he wouldn't have researched it as a last resort in case his body got too old to sustain him. I just don't believe he could possibly have been the first Lich, even if he was one. He was a relatively young, upstart sorcerer when that poem begins. The Psijic order was apparently very old and he was a brash young student. I'm sure some other mage had fallen to the temptation of necromancy before him. The author of that document is probably combining the historical figure of Mannimarco with some ancient old wive's tale about a lich king or something. There's certainly some heavy handed, allegorical dialogue in there such as the lich "breathing death" and the battlemages and knights "casting holy light". It seems almost more like a religious parable than a historical document.

Judging from the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon, both the object and the book, I'd say that the Mannimarco we saw was an avatar, not unlike those of Mara, Zenithar, and Talos seen in Morrowind. Like them, he wasn't what you'd call a snappy dresser.

About his splitting, I've come up with a really... different idea about the Warp in the West.

Not the entirety of all the acts that happened actually ended up happening. only those that changed things. The Hero of Daggerfall's death, for example, is a change. The death of the Underking, for example, is a change. Most importantly, Mannimarco's asention to godhood is a change. But considering nothing about him changed in any of the other endings, nothing happened whatsoever that cause him to 'split'

That's one of the earliest theories after Oblivion came out, but the Nu-Hatta thing kinda implied that Akatosh's Jills were offended by the idea of Mannimarco becoming a god and somehow managed to pry him from his new godhood. They couldn't undo the Revanant, but they could force Mannimarco to be a mortal again. So in a way he got what he wanted, which was a new god of Undeath, but he didn't get to play that role himself.

I imagine being a Jill of Akatosh must be an incredibly crappy job. Akatosh has a terrible habit of falling to pieces, much like humpty dumpty. It's possible to slap him together, but you're always gonna get something slightly wrong. Maybe that left horn was installed upside down, or his eye is all wrong, or maybe you swapped his hands and his feet. It looks right, but it just doesn't feel right somehow. And that's why things get messed up.

If Mannimarco does know how to become a lich, why hasn't he become one? I know he doesn't have to worry about dying that much, but it still has the advantage of no bodily functions to weigh you down, it makes you harder to kill, which is a plus because all of those mages guild guys are NOT cool about letting him live, and I think it releases the floodgates of Aethrius. since you have no body holding you back, and thus giving you a magicka boost.

But then again, Mannimarco in Daggerfall was a bad-ass ladies man who partied a lot and had cool eyes. He'd lose those things as a lich, so it's a tough choice.

You know, that's a good point. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Lich#Lich, so how could he have those glowing eyes if he was a lich?

Another piece of info take a close look at the regular liches in oblivion,http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OBCreature-Lich.jpg.It appears they have skin but it's decaying,maybe he was one of this liches?

Tharn made himself look like Uriel.

I don't think looks should be considered, either. What is the ideal lich? Forty percent decay, or seventy; worms crawling out of your scalp, or your ass? I don't know. :shrug:

I wouldn't take the fact that he didn't look much like a lich in Oblivion to mean much. If you'll notice, you don't see many liches in the game who talk. Most likely, the gameplay mechanics forced Bethesda to make him a normal NPC so that the dialog system could work with him, and most likely, Bethesda didn't feel that a character who existed only to serve as the antagonist of a single guild was worth making a fully unique non-playable race that would look a little more undead. In short, I wouldn't take his appearance in Oblivion at face value.

And if he were a powerful lich, I see no reason why he couldn't use magic to make himself look like a living person if he so chose, if Jagar Tharn could disguise himself as Uriel Septim, I see no reason other mages couldn't do the same. Besides, why should all liches look the same? They're basically mages who used necromancy to become undead, I'd imagine that there's no reason all should look the same, it's just easier for the designers to give all liches a generic appearance.

So you think it may have been another example of neglect, such as the Akaviri soldier ghosts appearing human?

What? There were Akaviri humans.

As for Mannimarco, it still seems unlikely that they just neglected his appearance because he is Mannimarco. He is an Elder Scrolls legend, so he deserves more attention than just some small side quest character.

No there weren't. There are no Men or Mer on Akavir, and an Akavari soldier should be an Akavari race, not a Tamrielic race.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akavir

There were humans living in Akavir at one point, but they were "eaten".

Yeah, but would you mind telling me how the humans that were "eaten" joined the Akavari army, helped invade Tamriel and reached high ranks in the military?

I was referring to the appearance of the Akaviri soldier ghosts from Oblivion who appeared to be humans, not snake men.

MK later condemned this and said to disregard it. It is considered to be one of the more gross examples of "dev laziness" from Oblivion.


I was asking if perhaps Mannimarco being a normal Altmer in appearance is a similar occurrence.