From this, it seems to me you are over complicating it. There is only one Manimacro. The King of Worms said he would became a god and return. Now we have a Necromancers moon that claims "He" will return. And what happened in Oblivion, Manimacro returned.

I'm not sure were you get the idea that he needs his artifacts to make him divine. Sure they might make him stronger, but he already seems to be a divine.

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The only thing arguing against divinity is that he went down so fast, but that's because Travens Soul was protecting you. Leaving nothing but an Altmer mage, with no armor, hardly any level offset. Without Traven, you just wouldn't have gotten close enough to hit him.

I'm actually simplifying it if anything, imo. Everyone else is saying "8 Mannis, 8 Mannis" and etc. I am saying there's 1 Manni, who became a god, died, and returned as a mortal, wanting to re-instate his god-ship, which spawned the event in Oblivion. Nothing complicated about it.

It seems you are the second one to misunderstand and missed another post of mine.. I placed a reply to the first person stating I did not mean to imply he needed those items to become Manni the god in the sense they made him it. But, rather, it was something that he drastically needed in the aid of becoming Manni the god, again, because it increases his power at least 2 fold. Otherwise, he would not have attempted to obtain those items. From that, we can tell he direly needed them. Again, I did not imply they, the artifacts, made him the god.

So, in conclusion, I did not imply or intentionally state he needed those items to become a god. Merely poor word arrangement. I merely meant those items were drastically needed to aid his efforts in regaining his "god-ship.". (Meaning increase his power.)

I'm not sure about other Gods, but Aedra can be killed(See: Lorkhan), and Daedra can be banished by "killing" the bodies they use in the mortal world). There is also a bit of evidence to support that by this process they are "reborn slightly different", but I'm not completely sure of that.

Of the other gods, though, of Mannimarco, Vivec, etc....I have no idea.

I understood that point. I just don't see what it is based on. You seem to be reasoning from the idea that he was a push over in game and thus must be 'not-quite-a-god-right-now' rather then a mortal or a god.

No, I mean he was a complete mortal in Oblivion, exactly has he would have been back in Summerset Isles/Cyrodiil. I didn't say anything near "not quite a god." Don't know where you got that. :huh:

Right. So mortal it is.

Well, with that out of the way. Would you mind answering why you think he's not a divine?

I cannot answer that part precisely. It's merely what I see that leans towards the side. If he had been a god during Oblivion, there'd be no need for the artifacts, nor to hide. So, perhaps all this time he's been waiting, much like Mankar, waiting for the precise moment to strike. Since he requests those artifacts, it further points to the fact he's not as powerful as he was in past, suggesting he is not complete control of his powers, or he does not have them anymore. This would explain his indirect, yet direct, attacks on the Mage Guild. It took time after his first death to regain power.

During Oblivion's time, he had enough power to where he was confident he could, with the relics and necromancer faction, take over and destroy the Mage Guild. After this time, I believe it was spoke about or ranted by him, he would, more or less, in my own words, claim his throne yet again and become Manni the god. It's also why Traven knew you could defeat him, because he wasn't god Manni yet, or else he would have attacked earlier.

That isn't to say Manni was weak in Oblivion. Weaker than god Manni, yes, that's obvious, though.

I think that during god Manni's first reign and death, it merely reverted him back to his mortal status, and removing his mantle. Or perhaps, like Sauron in LOTR, he was defeated (back) into his spirit form, collecting enough powers to become physical again. God Manni can be considered "One Sauron" (Sauron with the ring, incarnate.) while mortal Manni is the Sauron Gollum spoke of with 9 fingers, I believe it was. He is/was alive and in the flesh, but he did not have enough power to do his bidding.

We all know Mannimarco was incredibly powerful pre-god status. And his actions, things that happened, etc, all point to me that the one in Oblivion was the mortal one you would have seen in Summerset Isles all those years ago, pre-god. Not a very good explanation, I suppose. Trying to form my thoughts with new one as I type.

I believe this sums it up better than I could.


Note that the shades continue after Mannimarco's apparent demise.

Sorry for cutting it down so much. But I'm trying to get to the essence of your thoughts. You seem to be thinking that Manimacro isn't powerful enough, that he was more powerful when he was a god. Yet, we know nothing about his abilities as a god. Did you imagine him to be stronger?

Aside from the final battle, I can't see any point in the plot where he doesn't have the upper hand. Also with both the Necromancers Moon and Arkay The Enemy prophesying the return of a god I don't see any reason in Lore not to assume he's a god.

I do not say they cannot be killed - what I am saying that their death is not the same as for a mortal and they can come back from it.

The matter of the Daedra is well documented - and all Daedra (not just the God-like Princes) return to Oblivion and are revived there

Note the prediction re the rise of the Precursor that Yffre (et-Ada/Aedra?) is returning (he is/was one of the Earthbones ...) and note that Lorkhan is 'dead', his Heart is ripped out, and yet it lives on - Morrowind. Add in Vivec's stuff and you have to start thinking in new terms when you read 'killed' in terms of a God.

Heh, I killed Vivec and yet several Devs and semi-ex-Devs all got together and lo Vivec lives again - even if I do not like the manner of it. Things aint always what they seem, eh?

The question here is what has happened with Mannimarco and if Aedra, tribunal, earthbones and Lorkhan do not die in th emortal sense then you also have to ask not whether Mannimarco was killed in the manner of a mortal, but rather how 'death' would affect him - not excluding however the mysterious action the Jills affected events nor ignoring the effects of the eightfold Dragonbreak.

I find the fact that the Jills decided they had to intervene where Mannimarco was concerned and yet the Jills ignored the Giant Stompy Robot thingies highly significant. Clearly there is more to Manimarco than we understand as yet.

One important question does arise here = is 'death' the same or the same experience for all Gods? And it looks like everyone here believes that it is different for each God - that seems very significant. So the next question is why?

Cut it down as much as you want, love. And, might I say, a great post. It really makes one think before answering, if it's possible to answer at all.

Powerful Enough -

I can't answer that. We're told he was powerful pre-god status, but as to the extent post-mortal, I don't know. Like you state, we don't know. But, if I could, perhaps more powerful could simply mean immortal. In another sense, The Tribunal seemed to had gained in power after obtaining "god-status." I am not sure how powerful they were, either, pre-god status. But I cannot view or imagine their post-mortal powers as being their normal abilities before becoming the Tribunal. I mean, all other mortal people have a limit of power, but theirs seemed virtually endless, to an extent. So, in this, and, reading things regarding Manni in Daggerfall, I believe becoming a god, not taking the title, is the difference between having power or not. Daedra followers say the Aedra are not gods, but their powers are simply too strong to be mortal. So, like the Aedra, I believe it is not simply a title Manni took, but the actual divinity.

So, yes, I imagine him to be stronger. Though I cannot offer, like you say, any real evidence. All it is, is speculation, trying to fit pieces together.

Apparently, seeing as how he lost the first time, either the Mage Guild was comparable in power or his increase in power, if there was one, was not much, if any at all.

Assume he's a god -

By all means he is a god by title and etc. But I simply use mortal and etc to refer to his immortality and perchance powers. Like, for instance, Y'Shua was both Son of Man and Son of G-D. He was G-D i n the flesh. But He was still mortal and in the end was sacrificed. Granted, Y'Shua is alive now, baruch HaShem Adonai.


I appreciate your post. It is something I cannot really answer, even though I attempted. I think I'm in love :wub: Lol JK

Well there is one aspect of mannimarco's actions that is mentioned in a post above but that no one seems to have commented on. Manniarco called upon his followers to pray to him in return for the power that he would send them - but no one has noted that praying to a God makes that God stronger.

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from Where were you when the Dragon Broke? - obscure texts/TIL

Touche. I had never thought of that, at all. That could be the exact reason; he did not have the same amount of followers as before.

As before? He's only been a god for like 20-years or how how long ago Daggerfall happened. As a mortal/lich he's got between 2000-3000 years on the counter.

Er, sorry. I typed that early in the morning after waking up. Brain wasn't working properly. Didn't even know I typed that until now, lol. (And I'd never use touche, lol.)

In any event, I don't know what I meant.

Well there is the question of how long each aspect of the Dragon Break lasted. But I was not intending to score points on that observation about prayer other than to note that he was quite keen to get stronger in all sorts of ways for whatever reason - including it may be he saw the Jills coming - but I sorta feel he had big plans (as if creating your own moon is not a big deal)

Mannimarco in Oblivion was.... somesort of badly made clone, he used to be so cool and then suddenly he's soft as a piece of [censored].

i was prepared for the fight of a lifetime and my summoned Atronach took care of him by himself.

no, Beth, you better shape up with TES 5.

The Mannimarco in OB was certainly underpowered mechanic-wise, but as for his godhood, his godly powers were probably rooted in the Necromancer's Moon, similar to how the CoC's Sheogorath powers were rooted in the Shivering Isles.

That's interesting. Could it be that what the Jills did was to sever his connection with 'his' moon in some way and that in Oblivion he was attempting to reinstate that connnection?

Gotta feel sorry fo rthe guy - every time he is ready to strut his stuff he meets up with 'the player'.

Lol, "The player" always screws stuff up for him, I hope that's not the end of him and he regains his godly status again, or at least lichdom, and for once fulfill one of his plans.

That would be epic.

I see the old practice of thread necromancy hasn't died in my absence...

Necromancy does die.... but thing is Necromancy is always brought back from the dead. :poke:

Bonus points for it being a thread ON Necromancy. I mean seriously, the thread was just asking for it.

does the king of worms have any real followers in command? like would there be a second-in-command should he pass on? or was he a loner who sought companion among the undead?

He had a large following of assorted Necromancers. Some were more skilled than others. The "ranks" as they are appear to be Necromancer, Necromancer Adept, and Worm Anchorite. I'm assuming the Worm Anchorites are the most powerful mortal Necromancers in this particular order, as they seem to directly communicate with the Necromancer's Moon (which is in my opinion Mannimarco's true godly form, but we've had this debate already in this thread.) They're also responsible for crafting the Black Soul Gems that all the Necromancers use in Cyrodill.

I'm assuming that a high ranking Worm Anchorite would take over for him when he "dies" (I use the term usely. I prefer to think of it as a rest period between bodies.goo) As for WHO that would be, I'm not sure. The named ones who actually appear in the game were all killed in the Mages Guild questline. There was at least one named in the book "The Black Arts on Trial" who didn't actually appear in-game as an NPC. Ulliceta gra-Kogg left the Mages Council after the discussion on Necromancy and supposedly remains at large. She would be a prime candidate for a "top dog" Necromancer to fill the power vacuum in the meantime, although I suspect she would still defer authority to the divine form of Mannimarco whom I believe can communicate through the Necromancer's Moon.