First off, is there a particular connection between the god of worms(Necromancer's moon) and the king of worms? I know that GoW gives the KoWs followers black soul gems, so he must obvoiusly care at least somewhat.

What i think, and what ~I'd like clarification with is, i think that the GoWs holds a space of the Necromancers room for the KoW and his follwers. If the KoW and his followers were to hypotheticly need to retreat, then would the god of worms let the KoW and some of his top necromancers stay in a patch of the plane of Necromancer's moon. If not, is there any way he could reach out to them in the event of a crisis?

I apoligise if i phrased the question wrongly, but i think you get the gist.

All. One. And. The. Same.

So yes, he those help out the lowly worshipers

Yeah same guy, he never went by the God of worms, he was always the king of worms

I think that Mannimarco was transformed into the God of Worms (Daggerfall story) and the High Elf Mannimarco in Oblivion is some completely other person, yet still strong enough to be the King of Worms, dubbed with the god's name for his authority to be unquestioned.

That doesn't make sense. You don't become a god by leaving your mortal self behind. It somewhat defeats the purpose.

Also if you compare Arkay the Enemy and the Necromancers moon, both talk about an uprising where the Necromancers will return and wreak havoc. Even though the main enemy changed from the Temple of Arkay to the Guild of Mages, it's still the same story.

That Manimacro didn't put up much a fight and didn't come of as very godly, blame that on gameplay. Boss fights have never been that good in the Elderscrolls. This time it's even worse because it's a High Elf Mage without any spells.

But isn't there supposed to be Eight Mannimarco?

So by that the one we meet in OB is Mannimarco (probably, could be an imposter as well)?

From http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml

King of Worms: "The Jills of Aka-tosh have mended this numidition. Mannimarco remains as he was: the high priest of maggots."


Servants of the Dragon God of Time apparently attempted to revert Mannimarco to a mortal form according to MK.

However, the Revenant/Necromancer's Moon, which is Mannimarco's divine form, still appears in Oblivion. Apparently they were only partially succesful. A new God was created, a God of Undeath, but Mannimarco also remained in an Altmer form.

It's important to remember that MK is no longer officially a developer and therefore his opinions may or may not bear a lot of authority (I'm a big fan personally but, ya know). Nothing in the actual in-game dialogue suggests the person you kill is anyone other than Mannimarco himself. The only glaring contradiction is that the Necromancer's Moon still functions forever after he dies. This either means it's Mannimarco's actual divine form that can't be killed, or that it's a game mechanic. OR that the Altmer you kill is a simple weak avatar and not the god himself.

Well, you know how Brass God can control the events in time, so seven of them wandering around the Illiac created seven different timelines. This however shouldn't be seen as a complete separation, the Numidia could still meet. After they annihilated each other, the Jills took over control and in a put everything back together, creating allot of confusion about what exactly happened.

However, Mannimacro became a god, so he too controls the events in time and can't be affected by the Numudia. The seven endings where Manimacro didn't become a god, just don't exist because the one were he became a god controls what happened.

I'd be fun to call him Manymacro though.

He's still much weaker as a mortal in Oblivion than as a mortal in Daggerfall...maybe part of his power was drawn off of him in the creation of a divine King of Worms during the Warp in the West?

Or maybe it was just bad design on Oblivion's part. That I find to be far more likely.

There shouldn't be. The various Mantella outcomes do result in some contradictory events, like so:

Daggerfall awakens the Numidium, annexing the smaller kingdoms and crushing Wayrest and Sentinel. They assume power over the Iliac Bay.
Wayrest awakens the Numidium, annexing the smaller kingdoms and crushing Daggerfall and Sentinel. They assume power over the Iliac Bay.
Sentinel awakens the Numidium, annexing the smaller kingdoms and crushing Daggerfall and Wayrest. They assume power over the Iliac Bay.

As these three events happened simultaneously, the cancelled each other out. Think of it as rolling two balls into one another. They're going to collide, but not before having rolled partially. As a result each of these kingdoms partially conquered the Iliac Bay, and the fact that certain Mantella outcomes say that they triumphed over their adversaries is what omits them from being "integrated" into another kingdom.

I don't get how that necessarily applies to the King of Worms, though. There should only be two - mortal King of Worms (all Mantella outcomes sans his) and divine King of Worms (his Mantella outcome). The only way I'd understand there being eight is if the Dragon Break occured as if "okay, the Daggerfall/Wayrest/Sentinel/Gortwog/Blades/etc. endings all left the King of Worms mortal, so there's going to be 8 of them now." Not necessarily as he was not affected by those outcomes so he should not be affected whatsoever. Uriel Septim was not involved directly in any of these time warps, and you don't have eight of him running around (though it may explain the strange hair patterns and illegitimate sons). :ahhh:

TRAVEN killed Mannimarco in Oblivion. If you think you did, then you're just as deluded as the mages of the guild that hold your character to be Traven's successor.

OK, so maybe Traven had some help, but the point is, Mannimarco is NOT a pushover without Traven's soul with you.

I'd like to fight him without the soul, then. =p

I'm thinking that Mannimarco in OB was just a fake. Think about it, would a god really be that weak...? And why would he be hiding in a grotty cave? :huh:

Well... he is a Necromancer.
And as we have discussed here, it could just be his "Mortal" self and so on.

If you accept that what the Jills were saying was that they expunged all but what they consider to be his proper self then it makes sense.

In Morrowind the Nerevarine was the Avatar of a 'mere' Saint - and yet could become powerful enough to kill a few demi-gods ...

In Solstheim the Nerevarine gets the opportunity to kill one of three Avatars of a Daedric Prince.

Apparently to variousLore masters here when Vivec, Almalexia & Sotha-sil are killed they do not die in the mortal way because of their connection to the Heart, which seems to be a full God's Heart. They only go into a state much like sleep. So maybe Mannimarco is also killed (in whatever form he is) and does a similar thing because he is himself a God and has always been and always will be = what you effect is a state change rather than wiping him from existance permanently.

If you actually destroy the God of Worms (read death?) then you might also destroy that which he is = death (or Time for Akatosh, Love for Dibella etc.) Does that explain things?

Mannimarco in the very beginning was simply a power Altmer. He first and foremost is not the god in the beginning.

This is my take - So the one we see is not a fake, most likely, but the actual one without his god-like powers. By taking over the mage guild (Or, better put, by destroying, meaning no opposition), it will help restore his god-like status. Hence why he needed the items you must return back to the mage guild after one is taken for safety, and the other in the hands of a necromancer.

There is not 8 of him, but simply his Mantle-ridden god self and the mortal version. In his god-version, he cannot be killed, but put in a deep sleep. However, in his mortal self, he can be defeated because he has not the power nor items to sustain immortality. Again, that is why he needed the items, to become powerful again, to become a god again, so that no one can stop him. However, you prevent that. Ergo, no god-Manni. I don't know why people can't see and read the story-line in the quests. To become the god, he needed those items again.

Where does it actually say that he needs those items to become a God?

He certainly needs them to become stronger and therefore easily destroy the Mages Guild and (if he has lost any power or magical ability) become as mighty as he was when he was a Lich or when he was with the Psijics.

I didn't mean those items made him a god, I meant that they'd aid him to the extent he could become the god again. Aka, make him that much stronger. Miss-communication, I suppose.

Mannimarco the pathetic whimp would be a better title after the boss fight in Oblivion.

What?

I'd go with the Warp in the West splitting Manimarco into a God aspect and a Mortal aspect; it seems to be what the designers intended.

Also, your character can hold the title of Sheogorath in Oblivion, and could kill up to three "gods" in Morrowind if he felt like it; being a god on Nirn doesn't seem to carry all that many benefits. Maybe all Mani got for his Godhood was the right to order around a few undead and a couple of once a day powers he forgets to use.

Mannimarco was killed the first time, if only to have his god-powers to removed, simply becoming his original self for the last time. It is my theory there are no splits or aspects, or even separate Mannimarco caused by the dragon break. It, again, is simply Mannimarco as his former self, the mortal Altmer. It makes more sense in this given his presence in Oblivion than a rough, non-substantiated, hack-theory about splits. (No offense to those "Split" theorists who believe it. I just believe it all can be explained in another way, making more sense.)

That's a good theory, actually. But, so it seems, even though they're killed, it is done so only in flesh, if I am not mistaken, merely putting them into a deep-sleep, as some theories point out, interestingly. It is a nice thought. Not sure how much sense it makes in the end, though.

You have to read up on Vivec's writings to see what that 'sleep' thing is about. That was my inadequate description.

As far as I can make out the souls of dead mortals go into the dreamsleeve to await rebirth which separates them from their memories of previous incarnations - but when a God is 'killed' he does not lose his memories. As he is the 'living essence' of whatever he is God of he is temporarily incapacitated and unable to consciously affect the mundus while his connection with it and his 'form/s' regenerate.