Mantelling : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:05 am

Forgive my stupidity but what is Mantelling. I have somewhat of an idea as to what it is, something like a person taking on the guise and deeds of a certain god and then eventually ascend and become that god, causeing a dragon break. If this is wrong please tell me and thanks.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:45 am

the basic SIMPLISTIC answer is that it's basically imitating something a god did in the Mythic Era. An example, or THE example, is subjects participating in the Enantiomorph.

Once again, thats a BASIC answer. I could be wrong somewhere.

edit: as Luagar basically hinted at, it's "walking" like a god until no one tells the difference.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:35 am

Forgive my stupidity but what is Mantelling. I have somewhat of an idea as to what it is, something like a person taking on the guise and deeds of a certain god and then eventually ascend and become that god, causeing a dragon break. If this is wrong please tell me and thanks.

The former: walk like them until they must walk like you.

--Nu-Hatta

Impersonating a god (generally) so closely that the lines begin to blur more or less and as such you gain power from this... myths have power, and by acting out the myths of the gods you too draw upon that power...

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:46 am

I see, so i was close to right. But what is the Enantiomorph?

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:33 pm

The CoC didn't mantel Sheogorath I presume then. The CoC just stood there and passively accepted a role.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:31 am

I see, so i was close to right. But what is the Enantiomorph?

One of the 6 "paths to heaven by violence." It's basically like this: it's a mimicry of what first happened to the beings Anu, Padhome, and Nir, two opposites (usually men) fighting over a female principle, not necessarily a female, with another being actin as witness, usually recording what happens.

Of course, once again this is the simple version.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:50 pm

I understand

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:06 am

The CoC didn't mantel Sheogorath I presume then. The CoC just stood there and passively accepted a role.

Actually, the CoC became a god by mantelling Arden-Sul. I will repeat an old post of mine from 7-22-07:

As a new theory, I have seen a lot of interesting things in the concept of Arden-Sul.

First, it has been said that many events in TES recreate other events symbolically, such as the Talos/Arctus symbolic betrayal of the other that relects the Akatosh/Lorkhan events.

Notice that there are two versions of Arden-Sul, one of Mania and the other of Dementia. Compare the stories of both to the Akatosh/Lorkhan betrayal.

First, the Arden-Sul of Dementia finds out that it is actually [himself] that is his own worst enemy, so he rips out his own heart, thereby receiving the "Grand Enlightenment".

Second, the Arden-Sul of Mania creates such a happy situation for his fellows that their hearts burst. Finally, his own heart bursts, thereby receiving the "Grand Enlightenment".

My argument proceeds thusly:

1. "Hearts" in TES have been likened to "divine sparks".

2. Enantiomorphs are one entity with different aspects.

3. Lorkhan's heart was his "divine spark".

4. Lorkhan ripped out his own heart. (See#2)

5. Lorkhan has his heart ripped out by his other aspect. (See #2)

6. Arden-Sul ripped out his own heart voluntarily. ("Akatosh" and Dementia version and compare with #4)

7. Arden-Sul's heart burst involuntarily. ("Lorkhan" and Mania version and compare with #5)

8. An independent "enlightenment"/divinity is acheived for the Shivering Isles upon removal/bursting of Arden-Sul's heart.

9. An independent "enlightenment"/divinity is acheived for Nirn upon removal of Lorkhan's heart.

10. Lorkhan is the "Missing God" on Nirn.

11. Arden-Sul is "missing" from the Shivering Isles yet still worshipped over Sheogorath.

12. Talos/Arctus found divinity by recreating the actions of the enantiomorphic Akatosh/Lorkhan.

13. The PC finds divinity by recreating the actions of the enatiomorphic Arden-Sul.

14. In the Talos/Arctus enantiomorph, Talos ascends to divinity while Arctus' heart powers a new god (i.e., Walk-Brass).

15. In the Akatosh/Lorkhan enantiomorph, Akatosh is divine while Lorkhan's heart powers a new god (i.e., Walk-Brass).

16. The Emperor of Tamriel (not Tiber Septim) mantles for a time Tiber Septim himself by symbolically lighting Dragon Fires to keep Oblivion at bay and actually reigning as Emperor.

17. The PC (not "Sheogorath") mantles Arden-Sul for a time by symbolically lighting the Flame of Agnon to help keep the Greymarch at bay and actually reigning as "Sheogorath".

18. "Arden-Sul" was said to be both "Duke of Mania" and "Duke of Dementia". Both titles are symbolically held by mortals in SI.

19. The PC becomes both "Duke of Dementia" and "Duke of Mania", consolidating the titles for the first time since the Arden-Sul enantiomorph.

20. One aspect of the Lorkhan/Akatosh enantiomorph is betrayed by the other.

21. One aspect of the Arden-Sul enantiomorph continually betrays the other in that whichever "Duke" the PC becomes, the other Duke commits betrayal.

CONCLUSION:

"Arden-Sul" is the Shivering Isles myth of the Akatosh/Lorkhan betrayal. The PC recreates the actions of both the Akatosh/Lorkhan and Arden-Suls enantiomorph. Divinity is achieved through this mantelling.

The loss of Lorkhan's heart/divine spark birthed Sheogorath.

The loss of Arden-Sul's heart birthed the "enlightenment" called "madness", i.e., the Shivering Isles.

The Shivering Isles = Sheogorath.

The loss of Lorkhan's heart = the loss of Arden-Sul's heart.

Lorkhan = one aspect of Arden-Sul.

Arden-Sul's death birthed Sheogorath.

Arden-Sul's death = Lorkhan's "death"

___TWM

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:14 am

My (much less developed) theory is that Cyrus played the part of the Rebel during the rebellion of Stros M'Kai in a version of the mythic interplay culturally specific to the ra'gada, thus mantling and momentarily incarnating Hoon Ding, whose Making Way fulfills that role. The waveform truncates before he can beome King.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:46 am

Actually, the CoC became a god by mantelling Arden-Sul. I will repeat an old post of mine from 7-22-07:
___TWM

Ugh... I regret even more now that i havent played SI, let alone beat Oblivion. I'm so out of the loop on so much info...

Put as simply as possible, who is Arden-Sul (a more basic, superficial version)

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:17 am

Ugh... I regret even more now that i havent played SI, let alone beat Oblivion. I'm so out of the loop on so much info...

Put as simply as possible, who is Arden-Sul (a more basic, superficial version)

Well, TWM's interpretation is pretty far out there, and SI usually isn't discussed that way.

...which is of course why I have to read it more carefully, and perhaps discover some of the interesting lore that I also missed by not playing it. Sheo and Jyg's "Curse" is about as persuasive as the modern KotN, without their past, but this Arden-Sul (great names are a must) does the trick.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:59 am

My (much less developed) theory is that Cyrus played the part of the Rebel during the rebellion of Stros M'Kai in a version of the mythic interplay culturally specific to the ra'gada, thus mantling and momentarily incarnating Hoon Ding, whose Making Way fulfills that role. The waveform truncates before he can beome King.

That's the idea we get from the Sword-Meeting:

"You killed the white king in the Hammerfell, after all."

"What?" Cyrus said. "The Emperor? I didn't kill him."

"Of course you did; you were the Hoon Ding."

"No I didn't and no I wasn't."

The young ansu refused to listen. Behind his stone-feather mask he smiled in admiration. "You disarmed him, even, and would not kill him until he showed another knife. That is ra gada honor. We do not fight the unprotected. Your stories have come?"

"That wasn't the Emperor," Cyrus said. "That was just?"

"Of course it was. That is why the Hammerfell stands. You were the Hoon Ding."

And yes, the HoonDing was part of an Enantiomorph, as was Cyrus...

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:07 pm

Ugh... I regret even more now that i havent played SI, let alone beat Oblivion. I'm so out of the loop on so much info...

Put as simply as possible, who is Arden-Sul (a more basic, superficial version)

Who is Arden-Sul, you ask? I will first quote from Dervenin, the High Priest of Arden-Sul in the Mania District of the Shivering Isles: "Yes, Arden-Sul. Doesn't the name simply roll wonderfully off the tongue? He was the sovereign of thought and a regnant artist. To call him a simple craftsman would not suffice; know him as the Artificer Superior. Words dripped like honey from his tongue and his songs were intoned with extraordinary verisimilitude. Had we been blessed with his constant presence, the Isles would be a Maniac's paradise.

Arden-Sul was perhaps the greatest Duke to walk our land. Many years ago he decided to hold a night of absolute indulgence, resplendent with dance, wine, and six to celebrate his fondness for his brethren. The Greenmote flowed like water in a stream as the revelers voraciously succumbed to its rapturous ways....As the bacchanol reached a crescendo, the people began to clutch their chests as their very hearts exploded! The Greenmote had taken its toll. The ground stained a deep crimson as the sanguine liquid flowed from their lifeless bodies. To represent that night, when the ruler of Mania is to be replaced, he partakes of the Greenmote and allows his lifeblood to flow upon the Altar."

Now I will quote from Arctus, High Priest of Arden-Sul in the Dementia District of the Shivering Isles: "As it happened so many years ago, my lord Arden-Sul suspected a traitor in his midst. Not wishing to find himself on the wrong end of a blade, he gathered his flock here in the Sacellum. By poisoning the sacramental wine, Arden-Sul was able to suppress any such conspiracy in one fell swoop. ... He then removed their hearts from their bodies and used his ancient scrying technique known as visceromancy to read their lifeblood. When Arden-Sul couldn't divine the traitor's true nature in their hearts, he became distraught and took his own life in the same way. From that day on, the Ritual of Accession for the throne of Dementia was set. ... To become ruler of Dementia, the current leader's heart must be cut out and brought to the Altar of Arden-Sul in the Sacellum. Once this is done, I can pronounce the heart-bearer a Duke or Duchess. Then, all that is required is the blessing of our lord, Sheogorath."

But, my friend, probably the best source for information on Arden-Sul is http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sebooktheprophetardensul.shtml.

I hope this helps.

Yours in the Scrolls,

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:56 pm

That's the idea we get from the Sword-Meeting:

"You killed the white king in the Hammerfell, after all."

"What?" Cyrus said. "The Emperor? I didn't kill him."

"Of course you did; you were the Hoon Ding."

"No I didn't and no I wasn't."

The young ansu refused to listen. Behind his stone-feather mask he smiled in admiration. "You disarmed him, even, and would not kill him until he showed another knife. That is ra gada honor. We do not fight the unprotected. Your stories have come?"

"That wasn't the Emperor," Cyrus said. "That was just?"

"Of course it was. That is why the Hammerfell stands. You were the Hoon Ding."

And yes, the HoonDing was part of an Enantiomorph, as was Cyrus...

But does the Ansu refer to Richton the entire time, or is there also some significance in Cyrus blocking Talos' meteoric rise? That's what I don't know.

And I think that instead of, or at least in addition to a full e-word interplay at Stros M'kai, Cyrus just needed to make way. By playing the part of the rebel and because of his race and creed, he mantled Hoon Ding, in this case with the same result as incarnation. If not for the mantling of Hoon Ding, it would have just been two guys and a girl, governor and insurgent, etc.

» Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:57 am

Manteling reminds me of the Eternal Return (I think it was Albides who first mentioned the philosopher Mircea Eliade on these forums and gave us the link below):

" "In imitating the exemplary acts of a god or of a mythic hero, or simply by recounting their adventures, the man of an archaic society detaches himself from profane time and magically re-enters the Great Time, the sacred time.' "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return_%28Eliade%29#Myths.2C_rituals.2C_and_their_purpose