What are the other ways of going about manling? I know that there is no existing lore on this But i want intelligent speclation on the matter.

Mantling itself is "Walk like them until they walk like you." but Tiber takes it a step further; he acheived that though the steps of the dead, which I will assume means he walked like a dead person (Reman III, the last Tamrielic emperor.)

He copied what others had done before with the whole creating Mundus bit. Remember, the aedra are partially dead, and Shor is pretty dead.

We don't really have a clear example of mantling that doesn't involve "the steps of the dead", though possibly the mantling of Sheogorath could be cited as a possible differnt type of mantling (though still confroming to "walk like them until they must walk like you").

This is why mantling is so rare, only a few know the proper way to zombie shuffle. But yeah, you walk in the steps of dead gods.... so those dead gods resemble you.

Meh, it's still the life/death/rebirth cycle. He 'aged,' and his mind stablized, as he became Jyggalag. I suppose even the lobotomized can have moments of coherence. In fact, Jyggalag must be Lorkhan's old frame of mind, if Sheogorath is the new one. That's what the whole curse thing was about... I never took the next, logical step, with that one.

What exactly did Tiber Septim do to mantle the dead gods? Do we know, or do we just know that he did it, and then ascended?

He walked the walk of the Enantiomorph, a http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/nazzarticle05.shtml

I can barely make heads or tails of all that. I can follow the chain of events outlined on the article and the various incidents it talks about are familiar to me, but I seem to be missing the import of all of them.

Auri-El means King, and Lorkhan means Rebel. When Lorkhan overthrew Auri-El, he became Auri-El. The Lorkhan you've read about in old myths is the current Auri-El, and the Auri-El you've read about in old myths, manifests as the next Lorkhan. This is a cycle called the Enantiomorph. http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/lunar_lorkhan.shtml is a good source.

Whoah. I can never find enough information to fully comprehend this whole mantling/enantiomorph business. But that just blew my mind.

That's a great way of stating it Subadim - You've put it into perspective for me.

Huh. That does make a certain amount of sense. I can see how he mantled Lorkhan, then, or whatnot--but I'm still confused as how this made him a god. Why was his apotheosis not upon the assassination of Emperor Zero, then, since that was when he overthrew the king? He didn't become one of the divines until after his death, I'd thought.

i'd say his full apotheosis would be when he became emperor of tamriel, or at least of cyrodiil. he may not have been officially canonized until his death, that doesn't mean he wasn't technically a god. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine and all.

His inclusion in the pantheon was an arbitration of man; correct, but based only on the merit of being dead. His apotheosis was with the Numidium:
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

This isn't common knowledge, in Tamriel. People don't sip tea and wax on about the Enantiomorph, on any basis that could be construed as typical. These are heresies, that would make even the Minister of the Red Canon wet himself - perfusely - for a while.

The Cult of Emperor Zero
This cult, started by Tiber Septim himself, was established in the honor of Cuhlecain, the Emperor Zero. Though Cuhlecain did not technically recapture all of Cyrodiil's holdings during his time, he is worthy of worship for the wisdom he showed in appointing Talos as his General, and the bravery he showed when retaking the Imperial City, two events that were crucial in restoring the glory of the new Cyrodilic Empire. He is therefore to be remembered in our prayers. The topiary-mages have begun to shape his aspect in the Palace gardens, where in the future Cuhlecain may share his insights with Tiber Septim in the same manner as the rest of the blessed hedgery heads of Green Emperor Road.

The Heart of the World
Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

In a sense, the quote from Xal outlines the assassination of Emperor Zero. You would be correct to say his apotheosis came with the assassination of Emperor0, because he is the person of the pre-schism Tiber Septim - before 'One betrayed the Other.' This mirrors Anu contemplating himself, creating the Anuiel-Sithis dichotomy, which is the topic of The Lunar Lorkhan; and that Tiber established the cult of Emperor Zero, in honor of him, supports the idea. The Enantiomorph is two halves of one, after all.

"Wait... If I kill you and rip out your heart, I get to be a GOD?" - Talos to Zurin in school after a history lesson.

I think some other issues factor in - I do believe that at least a woman must have been involved (like Nirn, Alessia or the shepherdess before) and very probably a witness, too. (see Monomyth, Remanada)). Mantling, though, essentially involves acting exactly like someone else, to a degree where the actor cannot be distinguished from the original. Add in myth and magic and mantling a god is acting taken to an extreme. "Walk like them until they must walk like you.", indeed.

Talos, or better, Tiber Septim afterwars, however, paid a terrible price - Talos and Zurin essentially were the same "being" (Enantiomorph). So he ripped out his own heart, too, to become a god.

Much like what happened with Akatosh/Shor during creation for those of you who wonder why this is relevant. Remember, Akatosh and Shor are two beings of the same coin. Tiber was pretty much reenacting this scene.

When did Lorkhan overthrow Auri-el?

the Alessian Rebelion, when he lead Man (Shezar) against Mer (Auriel)

Mind: Blown. Much like Lady Nibenay, I've been exposed to and read all of these sources, but I've never been able to understand the real meaning they try to communicate. These threads are endlessly helpful to me.

I agree - I just started delving into Elder Scrolls lore a couple of months ago, personally I find a number of the concepts, ideas and theories hard to come to grips with. Threads such as this help tremendously.

Don't worry yourselves, it took me a few years to come to the level I'm at, and I'm still learning. Active participation is the best thing you can do, along with questions.

I approach it with a classicist's eye, so it's the resemblance to the familiar Greco-Roman situation that appeals most to me. Hence my familiarity with the Tamrielic Empire and enjoyment of all the high politics. It's the metaphysical stuff that's so dissimilar, and yet so fascinating. It's a lot like a structuralist reading of myth--or really, any metatextualist look at myth: new-fangled and different from traditional scholarship, yet fascinating.

I'm going to have to start taking a closer look at all of this. For example, I can see how Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan and I can follow the bits about Numidium--but then how was it that he was still mortal? How was it that he died? I mean, I suppose it's his "oversoul" that continued on and supported all his successors--a bit like the genius of a deified Roman Emperor being divine even before the mortal body fell. Hm, actually, I guess that's not a bad anology--it sort of makes sense.

It's not the body at all that's divine, but the forces behind it. So that would be why Tiber Septim, for all his presence and charisma, didn't strike people as a divinity just by looking at him, the same way Vivec might have, or even a demigod like Pelinal.

Am I on the right track here? I've moved beyond questions to posing my own models, so that must be a good sign.

i'd say tiber was viewed as a divinity by his people*, just not as a Divine (which they made him postmortem). he was a very powerful conqueror and unrivaled politician, managed to unite all of Tamriel for the first time ever, turn jungle into forest, retrieve the amulet of kings, build a giant stompy time defying robot, and continued to live after his throat was cut. the people knew that he was something special, but by this time Cyrod has forgotten Shezar (as little as they really knew him - enantiomorphs and the like are more merish knowledge) and gained half a thousand demigods and culture heroes. Tiber was likely seen as one of those. when he was named as the ninth divine it was not as simple as saying that he was a god (plenty of those around), but that he was one of the supreme gods who made tamriel and still rule it.

as for death, yea, i think the essence was more important than the body here, but i'm far from sure. but dying is sort of Lorkhan's hallmark, anyways.

*allow me to further muddy the waters with my own model. according to the parabolic kalpa, tiber's divinity did not manifest itself as apparently as, for example, reman's, and the knowledge of what that divinity entailed had been degraded.

on a tangental topic, mantling is really how lore masters are made. one comes in and pretends to know, answering questions and proposing theories in an attempt to walk like them. eventually, others see him as a master and his once having been a newbie is essentially forgotten. other masters heed his theories and walk like him. heed Subadim, he did it right under our very noses (complete with a namechange)

excuse the rambling.

Ah crap, mantling is nothing more than a jab at Lore Masters . And look what it got us! A BABOON!

I think I'll have a cig.

i'm stil pretending to know half of what I tak about when it comes to TES lore.

LIEZ!!!!!