I think it's important to separate Alduin from Auriel. When Varieties says that the Nord gods fought the elven pantheon, it means Auriel, not Alduin. Even if that wasn't the intention, Bethesda appears to follow it.

For example Ysgramor slaughtered the elves while the dragon cult was still around. I doubt Alduin is pro-elf at all.

Edit: Even more important than separating him from Akatosh. I wouldn't be surprised if elf-sacrifices were the main source for sacrifice, with them being forced to turn on Nords when the Falmer were all dead (or rather, went missing). If they had sacrifice, like the concept art shows them having. Should we ignore concept art?

Bold first, hard to say. I mean, it is "conceptual" stuff. So that means it could be a part of the world but we just don't always find it in game, like the obscure texts.

Second, when different culture's gods fight, well then things get confusing because everyone fights themselves on some level. Even when he was simple a force of nature, I doubt he was "pro" anyone.

I just figure that here you have full on Bormahu/Borhamu (I cayunt spell, gotta go reload that save just before the final battle and ask Paarthurnax!) being changed into something else, but because one of the things removed was the central tenet of Alduin's existence, eating the world for cyclical time, they continued as two divergent personalities. Dash liberally with belief about this new idea of gods being good and there you have it, Alduin becomes "just" a unique dragon, firstborn of Akatosh.

Also, if it is Bormahu, I wonder if there is a Dovahkiin-style pun in there.

At some point you make it your own story, and then you get to write the next part of the story. It's up to TS now, for example, whatever Lorkhan might want. Or rather, up to whatever is the latest manifestation. That's the whole "forced to walk like you," bit.

I don't know about un-mantling (will be thinking about it) but I think this happens in Alduin's case:

Alduin eats the world.
Alduin becomes Akatosh.
Alduin-now-Akatosh gives birth to Alduin.
The cycle never ends.

Just like the Tribunes, Alduin gave birth to his parent.
It's just a theory, of course.

Does that mean that Peryite is Alduin?

Isn't Mantling focusing on "what others think of you / what you do in certain concept" more than "what you really do"?
By acting in a certain pattern so similar with the Spirit of that pattern, aka that certain et'Ada, a mortal is considered more that pattern of Spirit rather than a mortal who is a mixture of all concepts and aspects. If he is absorbed by that pattern too great that all his other mortal aspects fade in other's eyes, or becoming less and less important that whether they exist or not is never relevant, then he has successfully mantled that certain Spirit, and at the same time as they are same it can also be considered that the Spirit had become him. So is a Mantling.

This is where Mantling is different from a CHIM. Without individual thought, there's no CHIM; but Mantleing never care individual thought exist or not.

See I don't know, but that is a really cool idea. Another one to shelve until we get some DLC or a sequel.

Oh, and for the record, it is "Bormahu."

Look - what's the one certified, official instance of mantling here? Tiber Septim. Does any of what you just said sound like TS to you?

A "Man Ruler of whole Tamriel" if you ask me? No matter who Tiber Septim was nor what his intention was, he himself had become a symbol of "man-origin-absulute ruling".
What he thought is not important at all, what he really was is not important at all, as long as he conquered all parts of Tamriel as a man, he then mantled Lorkhan.
Tiber Septim could be either Breton or Nord or even a Cyrodiil if someone made him so, but if he was mer then that would not do. Only by he conqured all parts of Tamriel that he really mantled Lorkhan; Alessia and Reman didn't do so, so they were 'man-origin' but not 'absulute ruler', as Tribunal in Morrowind and King of Alinor were still truly there and never bent their knees: thr ruling mer were not overthrown, so the Rebel was not successful yet.

That doesn't make sense. Where did you get the "man-origin-absulute ruling" scheme?

Lorkhan never ruled over anything at all. Neither is Lorkhan some sort of mannish deity. Men are just the majority of his followers.

Lorkhan's mythic role is that of the being betrayed and cast down by his brother. The opposite of conquest.

And who says he mantled Lorkhan? The characters involved reenacted Convention, that is, the entire Enantiomorph. Tiber Septim rode to heaven on the coat tails of Akatosh as well. The Dragon Ysmir, duh.

Shor is an aspect of Lorkhan, and though he is in a missing state he is still the ruler in the Nordic pantheon. Neither Alduin nor Akatosh from Cyrodiil 'rule' in Nordic pantheon, though Aka is meant to be the King.

These things are confusing to me, so please help examine the follow steps:

Tiber Septim=Hjalti+Wulfharth. Through Hjalti he was a Dragonborn, got Aka's blessing; through Wulfharth he was thought to be mantling Shor, because Wulfharth was mantling Shor, a ruler in exile.

As "Tiber Septim" was formed, even Wulfharth had left him, a Tiber Septim was still his own person, and would not be split back to Hjalti.

For the Dragonborn part TIber Septim conqured the White-Gold Tower, whose seat was then for a dragon-blood-bearer. And he in turn conqured all man lands. If Tiber Septim was only a Dragonborn, like Alessia or Reman before him, he would have to stop here. But as Tiber Septim did shared a Wulfharth part, he went to conqure Morrowind, and though not in a absolute millitary mean he did succeed.

(The Tribunal lose due to lack of power from Lorkhan's Heart. The 'Lorkhan-Power' was then striped away from them, so they could not resist another Lorkhan-Power bearer without much sacrifice of their own people, as they had done before.

Then Tiber Septim gained Numidium. He used Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus to activiate it, then with Numidium he conqured Summerset Isle. It was Talos who conqured Summerset Isle, because the conqurer was Tiber Septim+ Wulfharth+ Zurin Arctus, the latter two mixed up an Underking, with Zurin Arctus merged into its body and Wulfharth its heart.

So
Tiber Septim-Akatosh from Hjalti-Akatosh
Tiber Septim-Lorkhan without his Heart from Wulfharth-Shor Mantling---Here is Tiber Septim's mantling part? Or I should change Lorkhan directly into Shor?
Wulfharth-Lorkhan's Heart, transformed through Zurin Arctus's magic
Zurin Arctus-Magnus, the magic that bound all these together

Is it right then?

But even in this, Tiber Septim was mantling Shor/Lorkhan because the Nords and other men believed so. Put another Dragonborn there instead of Hjalti, the equation still worked well. Put another people who was not a Dragonborn there instead og Hjalti, we got another Ysmir through mantling, and we lose all other equations, but those had nothing to do with Mantling except a final origin-et'Ada of Time-and-Space-bounding-to-Mundus?

I used the word "unmantle" earlier in the thread: you can unmantle, in the sense that to become like something else is to become less like what you already are. So, to unmantle one thing you have to mantle something else. I do think Alduin has been "unmantling" Akatosh, and I think he's been doing so by mantling Shor, so he can absorb the Shor-aligned energies heading from Mundus towards Sovngarde. This is also why the player character can't absorb his soul like he can the other dragon souls: his energy is no longer aligned with yours. His energy would then be absorbed directly by Sovngarde and added to the growing Shor meta-self..


I suspect that the war between the pantheons was really a war between the Ehnofey, many generations after the divines were well divided amongst their descendants, and the results of the war were what split the Ehlnofey into the base group which would become elves and the "wandering" group that became men. So, yes, in this sense Alduin would have already been separated from the rest of the dragon-god-which-was, but it's not clear what, if anything, Alduin had to do with that war.

+Arctus. Although we've already run into problems because in the Heresy, Arctus is pretty pointless.

And here you're mixing Heresy and Orthodoxy (which is good), because Hjalti of the heresy is just a trickster, while Talos of the Orthodoxy climbs the 7000 steps (a story too good to pass up). The whole Dragonborn things seems to enshrine it anyhow.

Hmmn... Let's return to the main point. The betrayal, however exactly it is acted out, is what seals the Mantling deal. The betrayal in pursuit of Numidium. Wulfharth wasn't mantling Shor, he was an incarnation of him. And the betrayal isn't Shor-specific; it fits all myths.

Not sure what this means.

He gets the Amulet of Kings from Sancre Tor, following Reman's path to the Covenant in a more PG-rated way. And the Dragonfires, to make it official, sure.

I think it runs off the rails here. Without getting into the issue of his mythic status determining his military success, we have Reman on record as conquering the entire known world. What this means is very vague, but it clearly extends beyond Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock. The 1st PGE hints of Summerset's humiliation at Reman's hands, but I choose to interpret this as some Concordat-like enforced peace settlement short of annexation.

Actually, Reman came close to conquering Morrowind by main force. Only his assassination stopped him short. Tiber conquered because of what Vivec say in him. And he only conquered Summerset because of Vivec's treaty gift on Numidium. (Although the legion probably outmatched Vvardenfell's forces.)

This seems to be a bit of an inventive stretch on your part. The only talk about power levels we hear about is Dagoth preventing the Tribunal from bathing in the energies of the Heart. That is a very different kind of divinity, and as you have pointed out, Wulfharth is a creature of Shor. Lorkhan is notoriously fractured and capable of existing in multiple contradictory forms simultaneously. Look no farther than the Songs of King Wulfharth and the battle there.

And conquest is important, but somewhat holistically and ambiguously. It's that encounter in White Gold that really matters. Betrayal and dismemberment is the name of the game. That's the Enantiomorph.

Wasn't Tiber Septim already who he should be before he had ever unificated Cyrodiil and met Arctus? 'Talos' used to be a name and long after an idividual identity himself. Was 'Tiber Septim' the same? Or 'Tiber Septim' had nothing to do with magic?




So, on that event in the White-Gold Tower, Wulfharth finally mantled Lorkhan as he got betrayed, and as he shot Arctus's Heart out here we also had the 'Heart torn out' part, a reflection of the myth.
Yet in Shor son of Shor Shor tore his own heart out. Is there also a betrayal? Or in that story the betrayal is that of Magus the Scout, that the role of Arctus in the Wulfharth story?
That is to say, in myth Aka got betrayed, his heart torn out and then he fullfilled the role and became Lorkhan.
Tiber Septim in the White-Gold Tower mantled Aka then, yet he was Tiber Septim because of Wulfharth made him to long ago, when he was no longer sole Hjalti but got mixed a bit from Wulfharth, so another story of he gave birth to his own father in metaphor?
Is the Alduin devouring world part the same course the heart torn out, or it was before former-Aka-now-Lorkhan got betrayed?



Yet he failed. The Morag Tong stopped him. A failed conquering is never a true conquering. If Dagoth Ur never prevented the Tribunal from the Heart before Tiber came, would Vivec make the same choice?

In the Heresy, Hjlati and Wulfharth are colluding to gain control of Skyrim and Cyrodiil. Because no one can tell them apart, and presumably they weren't freak identical twins, we have to conclude that they were already tied together in some sort of mythic dance.

In the Orthodoxy, Talos is ordained by prophecy, and the Dragonborn goes to High Hrothgar.

And in that confrontation, with the Mantella as the result, is where I see Apotheosis material. Enough so that I never really considered the conquest of Tamriel as a requirement, although given how White-Gold operates, that really is a big deal mythically speaking.

I can't speak with much confidence there. But Shor was still cast down by elven gods in Nordic mythology, right? The Nords don't have to see it as betrayal necessarily. Their mythology is already strongly distinct from the usual Tamriellic creation story.

In which myth? Lorkhan is the one who loses his heart, but Lorkhan as a spirit is the Padomaic, Enantiomorphic rebuke to Akatosh, the object of IS NOT that splits up the combined being that once was. And then after that they make the world together, which is why it is complicated. In mimicking Anu and Padomay, the Enantiomorph has to come together in order to reenact a breaking-up.

But Vivec describes his Armistice as the killing of Tiber Septim, because the emperor did not exert total control over the entire continent.

Isn't Aka-Lorkhan the same identity with different selves, just like Sheograth IS Jygggalag transformed?
Lorkhan is the one without a heart, the one who claim dominion over the heart is Aka because Aka is the King. Lorkhan fights to regain his heart from Aka, in doing so he becomes the Rebel.
In each kalpa by tearing the 'heart' out of the King's chest the Rebel becomes the new King, and the former King becomes the Rebel, just like how Jyggalag loses to become Sheograth. Tearing the heart out of a Rebel's chest seems meaningless to me.
And in Aka-Lorkhan's story, after the whole White-Gold mantle thing I began to believe a betrayal is nessesary, from Magnus it seems. Just as in the Talos story, as in the Shor story.


Because Tiber Septim=The concept of 'Total Control', so by making the concept of Total Control fail, Vivec made Tiber Septim fail, aka killed him.
That means Tiber Septim had mantled Akatosh before the White-Gold event, because as the King Akatosh means to total control.

Yes to the first part, but Shivering Isles wasn't written by writers who get the concept, and shouldn't be labeled Enantiomorph or used as a template.

Lorkhan is the Rebel because Akatosh the Rebel deposed him, and so on and so forth ad inifnitum. The "waveform." http://www.widexconnect.ca/hip/images/sine-wave-lg.gif

Yes, Nordic belief puts it into nice perspective.

Which is why I'm casting doubt on the central importance of conquest.

Was mantling. In method acting, you spend a long time in character before the actual performance.

I see where our differences are set.
In my opinion, 'Aka' and 'Lork' are both names, like the labels of 'the King' and 'the Rebel', but not the core spirit selves of Time and Space. So after the Rebel overthrow the former King, the Rebel 'Lork' becomes the new King, the new 'Aka'. The former 'Aka' loses his heart and become new 'Lork'. So there is never a 'Akatosh the Rebel' because 'Aka' is forever 'King', Aka=King
And you condider Aka is forever Aka, Lork is forever Lork, so you say 'Akatosh the Rebel', who is exactly 'former Lorkhan who becomes Aka now' in my words.
So we are talking about the same thing it seems.

No, where does that concept come from? Akatosh didn't unmantle. (nasty dragon) I say what (maybe) happened, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1347538-a-second-talos/page__view__findpost__p__20339350.

Can you apply it to the Nirn creation story? Where Lorkhan is the architect of Mundus and is overthrown by Akatosh and the other Aedra? I suppose you don't have to if you don't take it as confirmed fact.

The Nirn creation story we see in The Monomyth is the very first time of creation I assume? When Aka and Lork and other et'Ada never knew what Mundus means and Magnus had never become Dagon?

Between the story of The Monomyth and the beginning of our current kalpa that is ME2500, exactly how many kalpas had passed and how many King-Rebel cycles had performed? We don't know. We don't even know whether the current Lorkhan is the first Lork who asked to create Mundus, or is the first Aka who get overthrown by the following exchange. But it doesn't matter, because the metaphor and the meaning of the creation was and is and will be still the same.Yet we know Alduin appeared at least once that had made Magnus Dagon.

Aka/Lork are symbols and facts of Anu/Padomay affecting a single spirit of Time-and-Space. Which end of the string got the certain name is unrelevant.

For the record, I think the idea that the Shezzarines "mantling" Lorkhan is backwards. I think most the Shezzarines, including Wulfharth, are born when Sovngard hits a "critical mass" and becomes self-aware, at which point a Shazzarine is born. Since he's already a very "large" soul and (almost) pure Shor-aligned energy, a Shezzarine has no need to mantle anybody. Talos, on the other hand, was not a Shazzarine, but his absorption of Wulfarth's massive Shor-aligned soul increased his spiritual mass and aligned him so closely with Shor's energy that he became a god. It was this absorption of a Shezzarine that "mantled" Talos, though Wulfarth is the one who had his soul (ie, his "heart") torn out.

Again, I really don't think the behaviors of someone need to mimic those of the thing being mantled or people's interpretation of those actions, has anything to do with mantling. What matters is the nature and size of one's soul altering in such a way as to attract unbound energies of similar alignment. Often mantlers will act like those they mantle, because the nature of your soul determines your actions and/or your actions determine the nature of your soul, and so their actions will be similar, but this corelation is not causation, it's just a side-effect.

And yes, if you put both my theories together, where Alduin had become a Shor-aligned soul and was absorbed by Sovngarde upon his death, and where Sovngarde becomes sentient upon absorbing enough soul-energy and spawns a Shezzarine on Nirn, the implication is that we should now see the birth of a new Shezzarine... one made up in no small part by the soul Alduin. It is this tainted Shezzarine which is destined to destroy and consume the world, not Alduin as he was. The universe began when Anu and Padomay were one, then split in two, so it makes sense for the terrible union of Alduin and the souls of Sovngarde, the purest descendants of those two forces, to end it.

Yet Talos was truly born the moment after the White-Gold event. If the heart of Wulfharth had not be changed into a mimicing Lorkhan's heart, there would be no Talos.
It was the process that Tiber Septim's kept mantling Akatosh led to Wulfharth's being betrayed and heart torn out. If Tiber Septim followed Wulfharth's plan to direct attack Morrowind and to kill the Tribunal, he would be another of the Remans, not Talos. If Tiber Septim ignored Wulfharth and focus only on his human empire, he would be another Empress Alessia, not Talos either. Yet what Tiber Septim wanted was an "absolute ruling across Tamriel", so he and Arctus betrayed Wulfharth, in the process mimicing the myth, and then there was Talos, from Tiber Septim's success in mantling Akatosh whose aim is to rule so badly and absolutely that he ripped out Wulfharth's heart (no matter whether he immediately transfered this metaphor of ruling right to himself or not), from Wulfharth's success in being betrayed and his heart lost, and from Arctus' success in betraying a Sherzarrine and helping Akatosh gain the heart, which according to Shor son of Shor is Magnus' role. All three characters were full filled so born Talos, who mantled the metaphor of the process of Creating Mundus itself so mantled Lorkhan who was and is and will be the Creating. Lack of anyone of the three, there would not be a Talos. No matter how great and big the soul of a Shezarrine was, there would be no Talos, only another Shezarrine, mantled or not.

And for the 'Conquering', a side-effect it was, as you have said. To conquer is a must on the way to rule. So Vivec made an armistice to kill of Tiber Septim, as 'Not totally conquer' meant 'Not totally rule', which kept Tiber Septim from mantling Akatosh. But Tiber Septim finally succeeded in his mantling through mimicing the Creation Myth, and brought forth a Talos who mantled not Akatosh, but Lorkhan. After Talos was born, a single TIber Septim became less important a single myth figure, and he himself was never to be fully an Akatosh he used to keep becoming. In this way Vivec 'killed' Tiber Septim, and left a fragment of new-born Talos.

No, the Nirn creation story is the beginning of this kalpa. According to Shor, Son of Shor, the Dawn Era is in actuality the preceding Kalpa.

I don't think so.


The Meeting in the House of We is an "Again". The same Meeting had happened before.


All the past meetings, in one ending. Especially in here


It contains all the past kalpas.

And contrast the last paragraph to the first one, we see the enemies of Shor from the last kalpa are his allies in the next. Trinimac is always a follower of Ald as Tsun of Shor, so we can say that Shor and Ald exchange one another.