I hope knowing me doesn't turn you off to any of that. I'm not too serious about the cocktail napkin.

nah. i'm really just surprised at 1) how great guidebooks used to be back in the day, and 2) how fundamentally different daggerfall is from its successors. i didn't notice 80% of it when i played (probably because i was too busy dying), but damn, i could run a D&D campaign off this thing going to give it a good read and a bit of a fixup ("good" condition my tail) and then give the game another try. hopefully i'll manage to make it to the main quest this time.

Isn't this discussion really about hardcoe role-play v casual gaming. Much of the modding community (at least those not obsessed by bouncing boobs and 57 varieties of leather thigh boots) is devoted to making the game harder, e.g. by introducing eat/drink/sleep requirements, removing map markers and compasses, making dungeons darker, enemies more intelligent etc. etc. etc.. All catering for the hard core role player. I'm firmly in this realism/immersion camp myself. I would love to have inaccurate maps I had to acquire/ vague and contradictory information and even quests that could be failed through ill luck (all within reason of course, a tricky balance). I do however recognise that Beth have to cater for the majority who want to run around killing things and building 'uber' characters to 'beat' the game, that's where the money is. The last thing most of these players want is to be confused about where to go or what to do next.

I'm hopeful that with careful design Beth can satisfy both camps. I've not played Fallout 3 or know much about it, but I noticed the other day that New Vegas will have a 'hardcoe' mode, including things like the need to drink. Maybe a hardcoe mode for ES V will follow.

it always seems to come down to either people who you describe (usually equated with console players) and the 'real', hardcoe players who like character development, choice, etc. both camps are pretty damn small in comparison to people who just want to play an enjoyable game. i could care less about boobs, and the only game ive ever finished was AC1, but i also don't want to concern myself with whether my character needs to eat at this particular moment. that doesn't make me a casual player, it makes me a gamer. confusing quests aren't immersive or fun, they are bad game design.

if you're going to a party, and mapquest gives you wrong directions, causing you to arrive late and miss all the good parts, are you going to be upset or will you commend mapquest for letting you think for yourself?

The second one. Providing, that is, that there's the potential for attending other parties that I might arrive at in time to enjoy 'the good bits'. Although the good bits of most parties are later rather than earlier

I wouldn't mind it if they made all the maps static. You'd have maps for the world, detailed maps for cities and well-traveled regions, less-detailed maps for dangerous, poorly traveled regions, and hastily sketched, hand-drawn maps for specific quests.

But, there should be some other options for navigation:
* In villages, everyone should know everyone. If you ask an NPC about a shop or house, they should be able to point to it (literally, in game). NPC schedules should have a text string that other NPCs will use to tell the player where to find that NPC depending on the time. If you ask for an NPC in the evening, for example, someone could point you to "the tavern". At night, they would say "at home". Either way, they could also tell you where the location in question is.
* In cities, it's not realistic for everyone to know everyone. Whether or not someone knows someone could be based on special groups, similar to factions, like "patrons of X tavern", or "residents of X neighborhood" or "city merchants" or "attendees of X temple" or "beggars of X district". Particularly (in)famous people would be known to everyone in the city (a noted adventurer, the mayor, the apprentice mage who accidentally burned a whole city block, etc.)
* Some NPCs (esp. beggars, urchins, etc.) should be willing to lead you to any location they know, for a small amount of gold.

honestly, i don't believe you. you're happy when someone blatantly messes up and causes you to waste time, effort, and money and denies you an opportunity for fun? what if it was a job interview or your child's birth or something?

anyways, i don't see this line of questioning going anywhere productive, so i'ma drop it. my main point was that most people who play games are neither completely shallow nor desire a complete simulation of real life.

Can't argue with that. The main point I was trying to make earlier is that I hope ES V ships with a hardcoe mode, as in New Vegas. the hardcoe mode could well include incomplete maps, and vague directions,
I hope so.

As regards the party anology I thought you were talking in game, ie would I be upset if my character arrived late for a party. In real life of course I would be furious.

Getting bad or lying maps reminds me of those chalk markers on the game ground saying "detour", and then the next thing I know I am fighting for my life. Might be a very fun thing, in moderation.

Instead of exhaustive map routines, why not have NPC's that actually lead you to where you want to go? Have well traveled or well land versed guild or otherwise guides that force you to follow them. I know it can be done, because at least in Morrowind and for short distances, you have to follow Mehra Milo, the White Guar, and the sneaking cheating husband in Mournhold. Still have maps, and special kinds of maps, but relegate some of the tedium of maps and marker travel to actual game NPC's to take you where you want to go. Of course, make them hardy so that you don't lose your guide to a bandit or a company of wolves. For those that like it swift, have the option to walk it with them, or zip via the fast travel route. Maybe the NPC will whip out a scroll animation and boom! You're at your destination.

I like your idea about the 3d map because then i will not have to navigate through menus and break immersion but I dont like the idea of fast travel because I feel they should go back to the way morrowind did it because it's the most immersive and realistic way to fast travel.

I'm cool with any map style. :shrug:

I like this idea and I will love it and keep it and feed it and call it George.

M'aiq is glad he has a compass. Makes it easy to find things. Much better than wandering around like a fool.

Funny, how many people seem to either forget (or never noticed) that Morrowind has a built-in compass in the mini-map. It didn't point to your next quest location, but you really had no excuse for not knowing which way you were heading. The directions in many cases could have been better, and a simple or rough in-game "sketch" (similar in concept to the various city guides) would have helped in several cases. In other cases, a "nearby" location could have been mentioned and marked on your map, with the actual destination's direction being given relative to that, so you could have headed there to start your search. The system was fine, but specific instances weren't all that good.

Being constantly prodded in the "right" direction by a big green arrow as in OB, while being frequently congratulated by journal updates for not being totally stupid, just because I'm following the big green arrow like a mindless sheep, is NOT my idea of good game design. If you can't possibly "fail", then it's not a "game", at least in my opinion.

I love the idea for maps in this thread.

I'd like to see the player character automatically making a map as he travels through areas. But along side this there should be a map making skill. The higher the level of ths kill the greater detail marked on the map.

For example at a very low level the players map would look like a poorly sketched outline of penciled in roads, X's marking towns and shore lines. With everything being highly inaccurate. And at higher levels the roads would be accurate, the topology would be shown, every cave and dungeon would be marked and everything else.

Also for quest givers. If you have the map of the area that the quest giver wants you to go then he could mark down a resionably accurate X in the spot. But if you dont have a map for the area, and the quest giver dosent want to give you one of his then he might give you a poorly sketched out map of rough land marks and roads to follow.

Also this map making skill would give the game a legitimate reason to have paper and quills filling up your inventory. Unlike all that paper you seemed to collect in Oblivion. ?_?

I'd love a corrupt scout to tell you the way to somewhere, but he/she takes you straight to an ambush.

Buying maps would be cool. I mean, for general direction to said dungeon/cave/etc. wouldn't be necessary, but it'd be cool to buy a map to the layout of some elaborate dungeon that was thousands of years old, and, say, maybe the map was also that old, so even though it might appear on the map to be a bridge from point a to point b, that bridge crumbled and fell waaay before you got the map in the first place. Or maybe it was drawn by an adventurer like yourself, and on it it has little nicks and scribbles, or maybe a part of the map wasn't finished, making you wonder what's passed that point.

But that's just me. :whistling:

THIS! [censored] it! this so very much, would have saved a lot of time consuming circle searching in my time with morrowind. I loved that feature in daggerfall, it's almost my very favorite!

I'm in agreement here; the map and compass should be a 3D figure similar to Farcry 2's, except with a compass in one hand, and a map in the other. Purchasable maps can be marked up and have locations added to them. However, they should lack the GPS feature and be static maps (save for marking them up for quests, locations, etc.). That said, either locations can be added via scout, or guide, and/or through gathered information, and current quest markers can be written down on a purchased map. That map can later be tossed or kept, and if tossed, a new one could be purchased. Or it could be sold.

As for the compass, purchasable compasses, sure, why not? This gives rise to a thought actually...What if enchanted compasses could be found or bought? That is, what if certain compasses could be bound to certain items, such as gold, magical objects, individuals, locations? It would definitely give way to a great quest premise. However, it probably should not be too overdone.

I am all for orienteering.

Great idea, I would love it, but it's never going to happen if the game is fully voiced. Can you imagine them having to voice a line for each race and gender for nearly any other NPC? It could be done with some nifty coding in text really easily, but they would never be able to do it voiced. That's why we're stuck with a giant green arrow. Specific directions take up too much audio space.

Or in the dialogue screen, they could point in the direction you should go and say the according line. Things like "Follow this road" "Head that way" "It's over in that neighborhood".

I guess, or they could not have that part of the conversation be spoken dialogue. Not everyone should give you directions either, some people are busy or don't like you.

I could imagine that actually, all they have to say, is "that is this way", and then the npc points in the direction. or simply have small 1-2 sec audio samples of "northeast", "that is north", etc for each race and gender. If it's a main quest, maybe a more detail answer.

Or they could just mark it on your map, unless it requires a specific list of directions (of quest importance).

I just wish there could be a healthy mix between written text and voice-work.