Hey, hey... if they can do that... I'll be -just- as happy.


I just want the game to be both GOOD -and- PRETTY ... is that so hard? Really?


Actually... scratch that. I just want to go to bed.

Night folks!

Er... morning...

... or maybe night, depending where you live!

-Later.

Considering humans have moved into dwemer ruins, it could be that the stone structures are human built and the further into the mountain you'd find the metal halls of dwemer.

Yeah this is what I think as well. I'd be pretty disappointed if this is the look they're going for for Dwemer ruins. I loved their architecture style in Morrowind and was pretty psyched to see it in the new engine.

Personally, I almost screamed when I saw that Centurion Sphere in the Sound of Skyrim video and am very excited to see the first glimpse of the inside of Dwemer ruins. My guess is the interiors won't be much different from Morrowinds, judging by the look of that Centurion Sphere. That's why I also think the exteriors will be similar, even though this screenshot is a hint that they might be completely different.

The picture of Markarth also makes me doubt the idea that Bethesda might go with the 'open cities' approach again. The way the mountains are set up makes me think it's a closed off space. A large one at that, though.

Point A: The dwemer who went from Morrowind to Hammerfell likely left outposts along the route they took. Namely, Skyrim
Point B: Lacking the tools and materials of Morrowind and Volenfel dwarves, they would have made do rather thabn live "on" a mountain like a "lesser" race.
Point C: It's a fortress city in a mountain. Any safer place for a College of the Voice?

I'm saying in general, don't expect a clean rip of Morrowind Dwemer ruins because these were comparatively transient exiles.

Seeing Dwemer ruins in Morrowind always gave me the sense of them feeling a bit like industrial cities. Large towers, fortified (revolving) protective barriers around entrances, giant bridges and pipes, levers and cranks, metal and stone. So more like factories with living accomodations. The picture of Markarth does not give me that sense at all and seems more like a generic ancient nordic structure to me.

A Mod is not really something you can point to. In any case, the Dwemer ruins were not sunken as far as I know, they were purposefully built underneath the surface. They had no need for walls with towers.



You are entitled to your opinion, but you would be wrong to make that assumption about everyone. First, most of the people here seem to be upset about it, and the only reason they aren't ripping anyone a new one yet is because they know its already Lore. There is nothing they can do about it if the devs decide to make this the new direction for the Dwemer. A few have decided to find ways to rationalize it, but make no mistake, everyone here knows that this is really just because they decided to take it in a new direction. Second, the ruins DO bare a resemblance to Dwemer ruins. I noticed this before it was confirmed by Pete Hines to be such, although I was personally hoping that this wasn't going to be the case but when I first saw the images, I thought to myself "these could be the new Dwemer ruins." I don't feel like I am trying to "rationalize" it or anything, that is what I saw and still see. Yes I personally disagree with it, there should still be more pipes and mechanics running through it, but hey, that is what it is. We still have Dwemer constructs like the Centurions, that look very much like they did before, so we haven't seen everything there is to the Dwarves, certainly not enough to making any conclusions at this point.

Your "truth" is your opinion.

Dwemer is a Mer name, Skyrim is a human nation, that they use a more humanised name for them is perfectly normal. Just like they tend to call Dunmer "Dark elves" or Altmer "High elves all the time. That the dwemer were known as "dwarves" to humans have been part of lore for a long time now, and their haven't been any dwarves around to correct them on it for many millenia, unlike the other Mer races.

As for the architecture, who cares if it's different from Morrowing, Ald-ruhn was very different from Balmora, yet both were dunmer cities and they were relatively close to each other. In this case we're talking about different geography, different climate, different building materials available to them, it makes sense. I don't see why it would alter lore in any way, the dwemer ruins of Skyrim are simply different than those found in Morrowind. The dwemer simply had different materials to work with and different considerations when building, plus who knows what variations in culture they might have had from their Morrowind kin, similar to the variations between Dunmer houses.

The dwemer were always destinct from the Chimer/Dunmer, they were simply recognised as a "House" of their own when the first council was formed.

One of the great things about the first three Elder Scrolls games is that they weren't like every other RPG from that time. It wasn't based on the D&D rules, and even though some of the races may superficially resemble the traditional D&D races, they are a lot more exotic and different.

I especially like that they weren't called the same, Dunmer/Dwemer/Altmer/Bosmer/Daedra/etc... it just sounds so refreshing. But from Oblivion onwards they gave them more generic names like Dark Elves, High Elves and Dwarves. Just like every generic D&D/LotR fantasy out there. Sure, you could still come across the odd reference to their old names in books and such, but in the game itself they went by their new generic names

One of the great things about the Dwemer lore is that in the previous games they tried very hard to distance them from the more generic Dwarven lore, they said they were mistakenly called Dwarves because they lived in a land with giants. And now Bethesda are making them into the very thing they were never meant to be!

If this is indeed a Dwemer city, I espect it looks LOTRified because the Nords built on top. Nords being typically Vikingy give the whole Tolkein air naturally, and I doubt that they would just move into a city of one of their most hated enemies without trying to make it their own over the next few ages. I think that what remains of the original Dwemer city (if it is that) then the original metallic architecture would be buried under all this stone.

Are you implying that building with metal roofs are made out of a single sheet? Because that is flat put wrong.
1. There are multiple sheets of metal used. This allows smaller pieced to be replaced for cheaper should something happen.
2. The reason you don't see roofs of shingles in large pieces is because they are EXTREMELY brittle. Look at them the wrong way and they will break on you. Metal is very malleable and allows you to have larger pieces.


Now onto similarities.

1. Both use stone of of the same color of their surroundings.
2. Both have rounded dome-esque tops.
3. In the lower left of the screenshot you can see what what appears to be writing on the stone. This appears to go hand-in-hand with what is seen in Morrowind.
4. The roofing in Skyrim appears to be made of a material similar to copper. This is derived from the bronze-ish hue, and the tarnishing to green.

And one other thing...
Where in God's name are people pulling that these are "Tolkien Elves"? Architecture does NOT denote the appearance of a people. It is however VERY much decided by the climate. In tropical areas structures are build lightly. Typically from local trees, bamboo if it is available. In cold climates they are built heavily, and using materials that enlarge/shrink from the effect called "thermal expansion" minimally. In otherwords, things like wood and stone. Metal however is effected greatly. That's one of the reason why bridges have gaps between sheets of metal, so that the can enlarge and shrink without buckling the bridge,




You might want to replay Morrowind again. Because as I recall they were called High/Snow/Dark/Wood Elves/Orcs. Even the Dwemer effect by corpus was call "The last of the living dwarves".



EDIT:
Also, unless I am mistaken it is a habit of humans, Imperials specifically to call the mer races by their "elf/orc/dwarf" names. So it would only be naturally that in the home of the Imperials you hear it more often than not.

The Dunmer have always been called Dark Elves in the Imperial language, and the same with Dwemer, Altmer and Bosmer - Those names are just one of the ways to say it. Oblivion didn't introduce Dark Elf/High Elf/Wood Elf/Dwarves, they were always there...

Seriously? Some people are really saying that "Bethesda has ruined the lore" or "the Dwemer are dumbed down to generic LOTR dwarves" based on one screen? All we know is that Markath is it seems to be some form of a Dwemer structure. Next to that we know nothing. We don't even know if that's Markarth Side or just a ruin associated with it! Todd Howard did mention a city where Nords moved into Dwemer ruins, but we don't even know if he is referring to the same city (though it appears he might be). I know it's just concept art, but the concept art of that Dwemer structure we seen in one of the Skyrim videos seemed very Dwemer to me. I agree that the picture of Markarth doesn't seem too Dwemer (though I can see a few similarities), but it is just silly to assume that is how all Skyrim Dwemer structures will look like, plus seeing Markarth up and personal in the actual game will feel and probably look different (due to not seeing every little ruin in the area) than what we have a glimpse of on the screen shot.

Before freaking out, people need to wait til we see more of the game before making accusations that "Bethesda is once again dumbing down the lore".

Oh yeah, Lord Grievous, I don't see the dumbing down in names of Oblivion. The references to the names of "Dark Elf, High Elf, etc" have been around since Arena. There is actually a lore reason between the different names. Dunmer is the Elven version of the name while Dark Elf is the human version of the name. You can find a few references to a Dunmer being a Dark Elf in Morrwoind. I have also heard numerous references to the names of Dunmer, Alter, and Bosmer in Oblivion, but heck, mayble we aren't playing the same game.

Yes the previous games also used the new names, but their original names weren't pushed to the background like they were in Oblivion. In Morrowind, Dwemer armor and weapons were refered to as Dwemer whereas in Oblivion they were called Dwarven.

And playing Morrowind as a Dunmer, whenever I walked passed NPCs they would greet me with the phrase 'Dunmer' and not as 'Dark Elf'.

That is because the Dunmer use Mer names, while the Imperials use normal names...

And Morrowind was the province of the Dunmer, thus items have Mer names, while Cyrodiil is an Imperial Province, thus they use normal names.

That is easily the fault of different regions.

If I were to go up north and ask someone "Is that any count?" they would be confused as to what I am asking, even though it is perfectly acceptable English.

Elf/Orc/Dwarf are Imperial. It is only natural that in Imperial Capital the alternative names for mer to be more predominant.

I believe Arena only mentioned them as Dark Elves and so on. In Redguard they were referred to as Dwarven to I think. Its not really a new thing, just something they've kind of expanded on and gone back on a bit.

Really, to humans and non-Mer, the elves are Dark Elves, High Elves, Dwarves, and so on. The Mer and academics are the ones that refer to them by their proper names.

Dwemer carved a city into a mountain side. Perhaps building metal looking towers into the side of the of the mountain wasn't what they wanted to do. Using metal towers would be a whole other thing than carving a city into the side of a mountain. So there is very little surprise about about the use of stone rather than metal structures

However, it doesn't look very dwemer as I'd recognize it. I cool with it either way.

This thread made me want to go touring the exterior of the Redguard ruins:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Nakanja/ES/rg8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Nakanja/ES/rg6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Nakanja/ES/rg5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Nakanja/ES/rg9.jpg

The Imperial guards aren't making it easy to get pictures. The outside is all grey stone without much signs of machinery except for a ballista and some pipes along the bridge.

Redguard was also when they introduced the names Altmer, Dwemer, etc.

Perhaps, but it was really something to differentiate the races from D&D/LotR fantasy races. And now they seem to be going in that direction all over again

But we still have no information as to what they will be referred to other than one screenshot were it says "Race: Dark Elf" - but that is from the Interface, and is probably done to make it easier for casuals to know what it means. Dunmer doesn't mean anything to Casuals you know...
So, we'll just have to wait and see if they'll use the proper names more than in Oblivion.

We know for sure that they will use both the Imperial Names and the Mer-Names, but not how much they'll use either.

I hope those aren't the Dwemer ruins! :'(

Unless they are a branch of Dwemer that broke off long ago to move to skyrim and where separated from normal dwemer for so long they actually changed how they built things. I see them trying to make it look more like the classic Dwarf than the original Dwemer.

Thanks. I used one of your Redguard shots to compare towers: http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7963/towersskmwrg.jpg

Very good comparison. IMO, although the Skyrim tower is the most different, I can certainly see how they took the other two as the basis for their design.