You're saying that practicing archers aren't more accurate(i.e more highly skilled) with bows than non-practicing ones?

Seriously, see my "incremental increase" response for my thoughts on this. I've never used a bow in my life, but I've trained with PLENTY of firearms, and I believe the principles I've advocated in this thread would apply well to any skill that requires markmanship - be it firearms or bows.

I agree that Marksmanship should affect your aim. However, rather than have the arrow go off randomly, I'd prefer they introduce a wobble in the drawn bow animation (and in the case of zoom, camera wobble). So, it goes exactly where the animation/reticule says it will, but that point tends to fluctuate. You can still use circle sizes to give the player an indication of the range of likely fire angles, though.

As far as people worried about imprecision weakening it against melee, marksman should probably have a flatter damage curve to make up for it, but not too much -- don't forget that archers also have the advantage of range, which lets them get off attacks without fear of retaliation.

you have to get the "see skill advances" perk first. It comes right after the "see own stats" perk. you just svck at playing life... ; )

Um. NO. This leads TES towards the "you can't swing that sword because your skill isn't high enough, but you can carry it just fine" kinda game.

YES this is acceptable. Simply "this bow is harder to aim accurately for everyone", As you level up its less of a problem (since a bow can only be 100% accurate (theoretically), there's reason to stick with an older bow, but not after the point that you can use the new one just fine.) Sorry if it sounds like I'm splitting hairs.

I agree. In part. I’m not sure if this method is the best, but marksman skill should affect accuracy not damage. An arrow through the neck hurts just as much if its from a highly skilled archer as a poorly skilled archer. Only the highly skilled one is more likely to put one through your neck.

Also, in a similar vein, although slightly off topic. I would like to see arrows act more naturally, i.e. armour piercing arrows go through armour but do less damage while other arrows bounce off thick plate. You would need to pick your arrow for the occasion.

I mean you can still use it, it just be harder to use, since say the pull weight would be too much for you, or you have really bad breathing control. NV implemented it fine. and for sword you'd still be able to swing it you'd just be a bit slower and more easily disarmed.

We seem to be getting a little off topic here

A note to think about if they bring back other types of projectile weapons like maybe crossbows or throwing knives/stars sthey will obviously be under the marksman skill category but can't use the same accuracy system. Well maybe crossbows could but definitly not thrown weapons, how do you guys think these could be governed? I guess this is a little off topic too but less so than the topic of increasing archery skill in real life

EDIT: wow lots of people posted while I was typing this is a bit late

I don't see how the idea of dispersion circles can't also apply to other marksman weapons - throwing knives included. Why would this be a problem?

dude

you just blew my mind

amazing idea, YES PLZ, o man I hope its not too late to take this into consideration by the dev. team

My ideas:
* Agility to determine how quickly you can draw an arrow (reload speed), * 50% skill.
* Strength to determine how far you can draw an arrow (affects arrow energy) * 50% skill.
* Skill determined accuracy.
* Light pointy arrows (steel, silver) designed for penetration and far reach (leather armor, mails and pelted animals).
* Heavy bulky arrows (stone, orchish, daedric, dwemer) designed for concussion (plated armor, anything else is pretty much useless).

I'm unable to agree with myself wrt perks being gradual or instant. Instant makes you have a consistent goal to reach, something to strive for. And skill level is already a gradual thing. Some perks seems impossible to include in a gradual way. Mixing it may seem odd design. I agree gradual may "look and feel better", but given the "design issues", it makes it a hard call.

I just maxed my archery skill (bah, again), and at this point the bow is an incredibly useful weapon. In order to obtain any penetration against a plated armor, I think I'd have to be at pretty much meelee distances with a sharp arrow, using poison for the actual damage. Facing glass or daedric, running back home seems like a good idea if you based everything at the bow. Archers also carried an archers sword (short sword), but I think for my hunter I would go for a dagger/knife instead (to skin my prey).

It leaves a weak spot in that you would be pretty much useless with a bow against a heavily armored (plated) foe. You have to get very close for concussion effects with heavy arrows, so your best bet at this point is either a blunt weapon for heavy concussion effects (unlikely for an archer), or a poisoned dagger going for that critical hit in the weak spot. Maybe sharp arrows with poison at meelee distances, but only as a master.

My archer based classes are always pretty much horrible at mid levels if they rely on archery alone, but couple it with a secondary skill and they do all right. At master however, they rock! Appears to me the skill perks are too strong and the skill effects too low (at medium levels).

Simply skill against damage? Sounds like a faulty scheme to me. Archery is the sniping in normal FPS games. Let's make it a bit more challenging than bashing/spamming like crazy with a warhammer. Problem, going this advanced for archery, isn't it "unfair" or even "bad programming" to let "certain things go outside the common realm"?

I absolutely agree.

In that infamous place called RL, a novice at archery will have a hopelessly frustrating time trying to hit a even a large target from a moderate distance. It always felt odd being able to snipe a rat in Oblivion, and then pegging it with enough arrows to eviscerate its body just to kill it.

Accuracy should generally be rather poor, but arrows should have more stopping power to them. Oblivion and to an extent Morrowind had the system backwards.

Bows don't work like that. You pull/draw the bow to same exact spot each and every time you're going to shoot.

.Bob. and some others have gone through every detail how to make archery in a CRPG perfect. Add to this thread by only bumping it and pointing out how devs should take heed.

yah arrows were slow, did no damage and were lame in general

An http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Marksmanship_Lesson on Archery in ES lore.

As long as they beef up the damage on bows it would'nt be a problem.

And last I remember this is an RPG.

lvl 5 in archery?

You can't hit the broadside of a daedroth.

lvl 50

Decent accurate circle more or less.

lvl 75 A small dispersion circle

100 A pinpoint mark that rarely misses.

This.

I see marksmanship differently, I suppose. I assume that if a character is bringing a ranged weapon into combat, then I assume that character has enough skill to hit the target with a high degree of success. Regardless, i think that in cases like this, realism has to play a back seat to gameplay. A starting marksman needs to be able to hit the target enough that it's fun to do it.

I like this idea a lot. Although Mount & Blade had a similar system that I think is a little less cluttered. Your character has a reticule with three semi-circular points. When you don't have your bow drawn, the points are pulled together into one nice looking reticule. As soon as you draw your bow, the points separate out quite a ways. The higher your skill, the quicker and the closer they converge. When you level your skill high enough, your reticule will quickly converge to a near point, as your accuracy and drawing/aiming speed will be maxed. (obviously, the longer you hold the bow drawn, eventually your reticules would begin to separate, as you would lose your aim. I would have no problem with Skyrim copying this style of archery.The system just felt really good, with enemies being able to deflect arrows with shields, so you would have to alternate your attacks, and look for openings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBi4xEB6zew BTW, they need mounted archery like this!!

There is no need for assumptions, as the player you are quite aware of your own marksman skill, it's right there in the menues. That's the whole point of having separate skills. If your marksman skill is at 5, then it is NOT a wise idea to base your survival on defeating your enemies with a bow. Practice, raise your skill, THEN bring the bow into battle.Until then, use a weapon you are decently skilled with. This is pretty common sense to me.

However, if you DO wish to use a bow, just make sure you have a skill to match it. Picking marksman as a major (or even minor) skill at the start should be enough to be able to use a bow properly in combat, and if you didn't you always have the option to train.

If you were to base the game on the idea that every weapon could be used with good effect by every character, regardless of the skill then what's the point of the skill system? You might as well abandon it entirely and just stick with attributes. Having a marksman skill that does not affect accuracy is pointless - even the NAME of the skill implies that. A high degree of accuracy is what defines a skilled marksman, obviously the skill should reflect this.

I like the idea, IMO distance should have an affect as well - so that you don't miss so much @ low levels close distance that it's a pain to play an archer.

Pic for example -

http://min.us/jd3GYm.png

(I am a nerd for making this but w/e)

Well, the dispersion circle sort of does that already, the circle is drawn around the reticule, not the target. Think of it as a "mil-dot"-circle, as long as the circle is the same size, the accuracy will decrease as range increases. Just to give an example: Once you reach a certain skill-level, the diametre of the circle is 100 mils. This means that at 100 metres, you will reliably hit targets sized 10 metres or smaller, because the circle covers an area of 10X10 metres at that range. At 50 metres, you will reliably hit targets 5 metres or smaller, because that is the size the circle covers at 50 metres. At 10 metres, you will reliably hit targets sized 1 metre or smaller.

Level up some more, and the circle is reduced to 50 mils. Your accuracy at different ranges:

100 metres: 5 metres
50 metres: 2,5 metres
10 metres: 0,5 metres

Bear in mind, this is with a fixed dispersion circle - it stays the same size

(And please, don't read anything into the numbers, they're just there as examples)

How about some new shooting stances?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPankbXL3d0
Sorry, couldn't resist

This probably won't come across right the first time I say it, but I think that by level 40 or 50 you should be able to hit stationary targets pretty reliably. What I want the character skill to do beyond that is allow you to hit moving targets. I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't have the greatest coordination. I'd like the enemies to take cover or zig zag some, and I want the character's skill to apply in those situations as well as the player's aiming skill. Arrows also need to be able to hit pretty hard when you're using the higher strength level bows.

Aim drag?

As a person crosses your reticule your aim follows their movement, quicker and more sure as your level increases.

Try playing Morrowind then. You can stand on the mud crab and not hit it 50 times. What he is suggesting means you can stand on the mud crab and actually hit it.

Overall I like the idea, so long as damage is still partially leveled alongside accuracy and the aimed circles are smaller. Make the expert aimed the novice aimed, and give masters pinpoint accuracy.

No thanks. Where you *want* to aim should be player skill alone, given that no such counterpart exist for meelee either. Maybe you're just too far away, which is same principle as for spell casters. Keep in mind that AIs zig-zag is fully random, which is their only advantage. I will never expect them to move *smartly* from cover to cover.

On the topic of aim drag I personally don't like the concept because it takes much of the skill out of archery as you can just sit there and wait for an enemy to run across the screen. However I know many people enjoy it so I think Beth should implement it as an option that you can toggle on and off.

Also to anyone who has said that the circles would make being an archer to hard at low levels and very unrewarding; if there is sizable increase in damage dealt by arrows you wouldn't need to be nearly as accurate to get results also please see mine and .bob's posts dealing with a firing range as a way to increase marksman skill at low levels without worrying about enemies.

P.S. I've seen a couple post saying that the circles look cluttered or confusing, remember theyre not actualy shown on the screen just used by the computer to randomize shots