couldn't strength determine how fast the arrow flies? seeing as if you are stronger, you can pull the string back farther. with a faster arrow and more damaging hit, this would of course result in loss of accuracy right?

EDIT: love the idea btw

haha yeah, go tell that to http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=54826628 guy lol

I really like this idea. Perhaps the damage increase could then be more minimal to make it more realistic. After all, an arrow is an arrow... Bows would start out dealing a great amount of damage but the exact bow and archers skill would determine the precise amount within a more limited range. Likewise the arrow type would determine armor penetration values etc.

This principle could also be applied with swords. The player should miss or fumble with a blade or other melee weapon a lot when at low levels, and this should be reflected in convincing animations. That is all Morrowind's combat was lacking.

I would like it if strength modifies arrow speed. Is that not what happens in reality?

This would make archery awesome. Would hitting a moving target from three feet (one metre) away drastically decrease accuracy? Can you draw a bow with someone striking you with a weapon too? I just hope factors like these are added, so that archery/marksman doesn't become overpowered because, realistically, hitting someone in the head with an arrow is going to be fatal, even if they're wearing a helmet.

At least, that's what the archery instructor said.

And you really can't trust them, they're biased toward making archery sound totally badass.

But in saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if an iron arrow could pass through iron plate or mail. Helmets might be built to deflect arrows though, so that might make fatally shooting enemies very difficult, even at 100 skill, unless you have really good ammo.

A faster arrow will result in a more accurate shot, because of the following:

- Less need for superelevation (OK, the ARROW itself doesn't become more accurate, but it's easier to hit)
- Shorter flight time means higher hit probability against moving targets (as above)
- The arrow is less affected by other ballistical factors, such as wind

Wrt strength as a modifying factor...I'm not sure. The idea has been mentioned previously, and I'm more partial to the idea of having certain bows require more strength to pull (longbows?), but once that strength level is reached, no additional bonus is achieved. To reduce reliance on strength, these requirement for these bows could instead be a combined level of strength+agility....

Well I don't want the bow to sway if I' in sneak mode, standing still and my marksman skill is 50+

But if I'm moving, not in sneak mode, and my marksman skill is around 50, I should have a difficult time, but not impossible, to hit enemies. If I'd stop moving for a second or two after i'm moved, the accuracy should get back to almost pin-point, depending on my marksman skill.

Only moving should thereofre effect the marksman accuracy, the skill level should be secondary.

Hehe...well, that would be just fine. In reality, the shots inside the dispersion circle wouldn't be random either - but they would be unpredictable. To use guns as an example; Even after eliminating error on the gunners part, there will be dispersion that will be percieved as random. SLIGHT differences in the amount of gunpowder from cartridge to cartridge, different gunpowder temperature, wear and tear of the barrel causing bullets to exit differently, and so on are all factors that produces dispersion in an unpredictable manner. To the gunner, it will seem random although it is not. It is, however, unpredictable, which is what we want to achieve with these dispersion circles as well. (Well, not exactly, since our dispersion circles represent "human" error, not inaccuracies with the weapon or ammo itself, but you know what I mean )

If your point is that moving around should affect accuracy; agreed. The circles should increase when you move around, then return to normal once you stop. One of the skill perks could be to remove this inaccuracy factor. (walking at expert, running at master, for instance?)

If your point is that moving is the ONLY thing that should affect accuracy, then I definitely disagree. That would mean that anyone would be equally accurate while standing still - which is how most of the shots should be fired anyway. That eliminates the need for the skill - just stop before firing, and you'll have worked around it.

I love the ideas of the two circle system. They'll be invisible so there would be little difference appearence-wise between this system and oblivion, so i don't think it would detract from the experience of someone who just wants the simple mechanic. they probably could use a bow similar to how it was done in OB and be fine. For for advanced players however it would be nice to have a visual guide for the tightening of the dispersion circle as they steady thir aim before taking a shot. Perhaps it could correspond to the animation of the draw where a novice would take a long time to draw the bow fully and narrow their aim (maybe emphasized by a clumsy wobble as they work to bring it to a full draw), whereas an expert would draw thieir bow extremely quickly and be right on target almost immediately.

As to the quoted post: I think there should also be something where quickly moving your "head" to look in a dramatically different direction would make the dispersion circle open up to its full diameter and forcing you to wait for it to settle again. This would be similar to the "spread" mechanic seen in many realistic combat shooters where suddenly moving your view to look in a different direction would cause the spread pipper to open up significant for a moment before narrowing again and returning your accuracy to normal.
As far as applying such a mechanic, I would like to see a similar type of crosshairs as if often seen in these sorts of shooter games. while using mele weapns or the liek the targeting pipper would be normal, but when using a bow it would change to a different one where the small static center recticle is surrounded by the cross or x shape that expans and contracts to indicate the approximate spread of fired projectiles.

I agree, seems like a reasonable implementation

yes i agree. this way arrows could do more damage aswell, meaning no enemies with 20 arrows in them running around

Grand idea indeed. And if it isn't included in the game at release, it should definitely be modded in.

This is the best suggestion ever.

I like these proposals very very much, that the circle will be smaller both at a higher skill level and when the archer takes more time to aim. That massive amount of time/effort to master Marksman will be much more rewarding if this gets through.

More of the first one, less of the second, let me explain my idea again:

I mean the movement should have a greater impact on the accuracy than the skill, but ofcourse the skill should effect on it as well, in a way that would matter, ofcourse! But I mean that standing still, in sneak mode with marksman skill 50 should be enough to be able to hit a target from afar, but if you would be moving and tried the same shot, then you might fail as the crosshair is bigger. However, trying the same thing with marksman 25 would result in one of 20 shots hitting, thus taking the need of marksman skill into the picture. Moving would make it almost impossible to hit from afar.

This is a fine concept with guns and other weapons with projectiles that hit their target a split seconed after being shot but it would not work with bows. I agree that rapid rotational movement should decrease your accuracy temporarily, however none of these accuracy changes should be shown on screen either in the form of visable circles or expanding/shrinking reticule, in my opinion the only way it could be shown would be a slight shaking/ circling of the point of the arrow. The circles obviously shouldnt be included because it would just be way to messy and confusing and the and having a constantly changing reticule would make it near impossible to factor arrow drop and lead in your shot.

You sir, have given Beth a good idea on how the Marksman skill can finally soft level. Kudos :thumbsup:

While this sounds great in writing, I have a feeling that this sort of system will actually result in more frustration than fun in-game.

I like the idea of a shaking arrow or bow moving a bit to show accuracy of shots(how they did in FONV). But if they used circles it wouldn't be distracting, but might make the game feel like an FPS which many people might be against.

I though your idea was how they actually did it. Doing it any other way doesn't really make sense

*Sorry double post*

one stipulation, if Marksman skill determines accuracy, it should NOT determine damage. If shooting a bow is taking a chance of accuracy AND slow to begin with, it needs to have a constant positive, i.e. its a constant good source of damage. This, too, would be realistic. And the high-damage-at-low-levels wouldn't be cheap because bows are slow and inaccurate, thus realistically impractical at short range.

On a side not, i think ALL the weapon skills should not deal with damage, or at least make less of a difference. Mind you, i don't want melee combat to go back to the way Morrowind was where a mudcrab the size of a dog and slow as a turtle can't be hit by a guy with a sword just because he's too low a level, i just think melee weapon skills should determine things like combat speed, ability to connect successive blows into fluid streams (mind you, not combos, thats just stupid) and perks every 10 levels that add unique and truely innovative swordsman/hammer/axe/whatver style movements that add real depth to combat and allow you to gain the upper hand

As long as accuracy is only affected by "dramatical" change in direction, I think it could work. It wouldn't cause problems with lead or drop, since those changes in azimuth/drop would be relatively small. It would only be a factor when switching targets. (And then only targets that are some distance apart)

Regarding the reticule, I'm starting to lean towards a solution where the reticules can be switched on/off in the menu, based on the players preference.

An idea to keep the problem of aiming precision tied to skill while not confusing the UI with visible circles or projected trajectories, would be to change the character point of view when using a bow to place it in a realistical aiming position. If your character is not skilled enough, your position may be sighlty wrong. The more skilled your character, the more accute will be your aiming position. Moreover, as already suggested, the circles of accuracy may be figured by your arrow point movement and shaking. The less experienced, the more moving it will be. If you add a little lag between the point movement and the correction of your aiming position, the system will, on one side, result in inexperienced characters players having a very unprecise shot and, on the other, a solid aiming base for experienced characters players.