Marriage & Jobs, LOL whats next? : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:24 am

Babies are next.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:24 pm

actually with marriage, jobs, reputation, relationship between PC-NPC, that makes NPC feels more important

you know, in OB i saw NOC merely as a punching meat bag

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:48 pm

And marraiges, lovers and friendships certainly would NOT have been as foriegn to Morrowind and Oblivion as machine guns and cyborgs. Do you know why? Because, while the denizens of those games have never heard of a machine gun or a cyborg, they are quite familliar with marraiges, lovers and friends.

How would marriage work, exactly? You find a nice gal, pop the question, and you're suddenly hitched. What then? I know you're not a developer working on Skyrim, but if you had to guess..

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:08 am

Which side would you be on if the developers decided to add tanks, machine guns, jets and cyborgs?

I haven't played Skyrim, but I have played plenty of games that added features like marriage and children. Those features have never actually contributed anything of worth to the game play and were constantly being "flamed" by the players. Could Bethesda pull them off? Maybe, but I don't think they should be putting it to chance with one of the biggest releases they're ever going to have.

"Optional" is a solution to every problem. One game can't cater to everyone.

Easy answer to your question: No. So again, your point?

Anyways, the fact that you have played games that had marriage and children in it has very little bearing on this discussion. They are OTHER games. And who cares if a group of forum followers complained about a feature. I'm going to let you in on a little secret: This forum, or any forum for that matter, does not represent the majority of TES fans, and probably not even half of them. The fact that there is this small group who is coming out of their little corner and complaining about the fact that the developers aren't making THEM the primary focus of their development isn't going to change their intended direction/vision. If you can't accept that, just don't play the game, its that simple. If an optional feature causes you to lose that much sleep, then don't torture yourself by playing it. I'm sure that there will always be this small minority of players who will continue to stay "loyal" to Morrowind, and mod it into Oblivion. Just keep playing that.

And really? Do you think that adding "marriage and children" is going to stagger the "chances" of this game? Really? You're exaggerating again. If the game fails, it will surely not be because of "marriage and children".

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:47 pm

"Optional" isn't a solution to every problem. One game can't cater to everyone.

I agree with this. But the problem is that you feel that Bethesda should be catering to you, and you're not happy because they disagree.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:01 am

As long as they feature man-elf on man-elf cut-scenes during consummation I'll be happy.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:12 pm

You say all that, yet you're defending the developers with the same sort of stubbornness I'm displaying. If you continue, what reason is there for me to stop?

It doesn't matter if they're other games or not. Marriage simply does not work well in hack and slash RPGs. It's either a bland and boring feature or an obtrusive and annoying feature. The same goes for children. Adding immortal characters isn't going to result in a more immersive world, and not only because they're immortal. What about babies? Toddlers? Teenagers?

I don't think marriage and children would stagger the "chances" of this game at all. I just don't think it's a good idea to "test" a feature that has never worked in any game before Skyrim in Skyrim, especially when those features are merely tacked on and serve no real purpose.

I'm not saying Bethesda should be catering to me. I'm saying they should stick to their roots and stop alienating the gamers that made them what they are today.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:02 pm

The only way I would use marriage is if I could find me a Red Sonja type character to adventure with. I needs me an amazonian warrior woman!

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:22 pm

You say all that, yet you're defending the developers with the same sort of stubbornness I'm displaying. If you continue, what reason is there for me to stop?

I'm not defending anyone. I agree with their decision, and support it, because its optional, and it makes a lot of role-players happy. I'm essentially defending those whom Bethesda made decision on behalf of.

It doesn't matter if they're other games or not. Marriage simply does not work well in hack and slash RPGs. It's either a bland and boring feature or an obtrusive and annoying feature. The same goes for children. Adding immortal characters isn't going to result in a more immersive world, and not only because they're immortal. What about babies? Toddlers? Teenagers?

Not sure how to argue with an opinion. So you're basing all of this on an opinion you have about an optional game feature? Sounds like misdirected energy, if you ask me.

I don't think marriage and children would stagger the "chances" of this game at all. I just don't think it's a good idea to "test" a feature that has never worked in any game before Skyrim in Skyrim, especially when those features are merely tacked on and serve no real purpose.

To the "serve no real purpose" statement, once again, another opinion. I think the players in this forum have made it perfectly clear what the purpose for it is: more depth in role-playing your character. Its an option that players have to further define their character. You don't like it, don't want it, well....don't use it? -shrugs-

Secondly, if you don't like seeing developers "test" a game feature, then you don't like sequels. This is how games evolve. Todd Howard has made it VERY clear that its part of Bethesda's philosophy to try out new things and see how they work. Like I said, if you don't want developers to "test" new features, then stick with Morrowind. Its the same game it was when it was first released.

I'm not saying Bethesda should be catering to me. I'm saying they should stick to their roots and stop alienating the gamers that made them what they are today.

Well, the problem here is that many people don't see this "abandonment of their roots" that you are trying to make it out to be. Once again, more exaggerations. Its the adding of a role playing feature. An optional one. Is this so hard to understand?

And actually, yes, you are saying that Bethesda should cater to your opinions about the game. Dress it up whatever you want, thats what you are essentially doing.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:45 pm

How many games do we have that are like Morrowind?

i am getting so [censored] sick and tired of this argument. what IS Morrowind to you people? what makes you hold it on such an impossibly high pedestal?

If becoming mainstream is what Bethesda wants, I think they should pursue that goal with the Fallout franchise and start heading back towards Morrowind with TES. People are STILL playing that game, after all.

people are still playing Oblivion, too. arguably more people.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:17 am

i am getting so [censored] sick and tired of this argument. what IS Morrowind to you people? what makes you hold it on such an impossibly high pedestal?

Nostalgia can have an amazing impact on one's ability to adapt to change.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:59 pm

I'm not defending anyone. I agree with their decision, and support it, because its optional, and it makes a lot of role-players happy. I'm essentially defending those whom Bethesda made decision on behalf of.

Not sure how to argue with an opinion. So you're basing all of this on an opinion you have about an optional game feature? Sounds like misdirected energy, if you ask me.

To the "serve no real purpose" statement, once again, another opinion. I think the players in this forum have made it perfectly clear what the purpose for it is: more depth in role-playing your character. Its an option that players have to further define their character. You don't like it, don't want it, well....don't use it? -shrugs-

Secondly, if you don't like seeing developers "test" a game feature, then you don't like sequels. This is how games evolve. Todd Howard has made it VERY clear that its part of Bethesda's philosophy to try out new things and see how they work. Like I said, if you don't want developers to "test" new features, then stick with Morrowind. Its the same game it was when it was first released.

Well, the problem here is that many people don't see this "abandonment of their roots" that you are trying to make it out to be. Once again, more exaggerations. Its the adding of a role playing feature. An optional one. Is this so hard to understand?

And actually, yes, you are saying that Bethesda should cater to your opinions about the game. Dress it up whatever you want, thats what you are essentially doing.

You're still defending Bethesda.

It's not an opinion. How else would we know not to touch fire if we didn't heed the warnings from those who have? Touching it ourselves? Never works out well, and I'm speaking from experience.

The purpose of the construction set is to appease those who want to role play (that deeply, anyway). If Bethesda starts adding features that everyone "wants", what purpose does the construction set serve? To remove them? What a joke. Even if they're optional, you're still going to be presented with the option in some way, and you're always going to be seeing children. Features such as those are better fit to be mods and not included with a vanilla version of the game.

They aren't just testing features. They're tacking them on without any sort of added functionality. Children will be useless beyond the feeling of immersion, and even that fades away when you realize they're immortal (and seemingly become children out of nowhere and stay that way for the rest of the game). Marriage will be even worse. Like I said, it will either be bland and boring (find woman, talk to woman, ask woman to marry you, marry woman, add woman as companion, watch woman die, find new woman) or obtrusive and annoying (talk to woman for hours, make woman happy, beg woman to marry you, spend thousands on wedding and ring -- of course --, deal with woman during PMS, provide for woman, get woman pregnant, have child -- who will most likely never age or come out being 6 years old --, provide for child, etc..). I don't see it being a very popular feature at all, so I don't understand the justification in it being shipped with the game.

If you insist.

i am getting so [censored] sick and tired of this argument. what IS Morrowind to you people? what makes you hold it on such an impossibly high pedestal?

It was the best game I have ever played, and yet it forced me to spend hours walking somewhere to actually be able to do something. And I'm an impatient person. Horribly impatient. That's the kind of game it was, and Oblivion lacked everything that made Morrowind so great. Skyrim appeared to be going back to Morrowind in a few aspects, which was great, so it should be understandable that people get so frustrated when they see that the very same features which made Fable a complete joke are being added to Skyrim (for "testing purposes", as fate would have it).

It's a joke. A miserable joke.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:29 pm

I don't see why people are complaining about this, the game can't stay exactly the same as it did in Morrowind. If done well, it is only going to advance the series. It's not an out of place feature either; if anything it makes a lot of sense. How come all the important figures in past games had relationships (counts, emperors, etc) but the hero of the world couldn't at all?

That's how I see it. As long as you're not forced to marry, I don't see any problems.

They aren't just testing features. They're tacking them on without any sort of added functionality. Children will be useless beyond the feeling of immersion, and even that fades away when you realize they're immortal (and seemingly become children out of nowhere and stay that way for the rest of the game). Marriage will be even worse. Like I said, it will either be bland and boring (find woman, talk to woman, ask woman to marry you, marry woman, add woman as companion, watch woman die, find new woman) or obtrusive and annoying (talk to woman for hours, make woman happy, beg woman to marry you, spent thousands on wedding and ring -- of course --, deal with woman during PMS, provide for woman, get woman pregnant, have child -- who will most likely never age or come out being 6 years old --, provide for child, etc..). I don't see it being a very popular feature at all, so I don't understand the justification in it being shipped with the game.

Don't get married then?

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:31 pm

first i heared there going to be jobs ingame, i was like ok this sound nice, but then they said there going to be marriage, and thats where i said wait a sec, it a fantasy game! im a Hero!, i dont need to work! i dont need a Wife to tell me i need to go to work to provide her,

IM THE MAN OF THIS HOUSE!, :stare:

anyway we got those thing in real life!, we play the game as hero that need to save the world!, i mean whats next take out the garbage on your way to a dungeon?

in 20 years RPG games you will be able to have childrens that you need to send to school so they will get XP for and grow up, you will need to do the laundry after you got back from "jobs" and Before you know it you will Play THE SIMS! and call it RPG

Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you marriage, don't make it work - make life take the marriage back! Get mad! I don't want your damn marriage, what am I supposed to do with that?! Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give *Dovahkiin* marriage!! Do you know who I am?! I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the contract! I'm going to to get my mages to invent a combustible contract that burns your house down!

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:09 pm

Don't get married then?

Don't accept marriage as a feature and add it through the creation kit?

See, I can do that too.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:18 am

Gotta agree with the pro crowd .There is a reason books movies and rpgs have relationships without a level of relationships or feelings like or hate toward npcs you may as well play Tetris.People may disagree on how much but that is the question and it is an opinion that will vary and these things are optional so i see no problem.I will get married to see if it offers more quest line or some benifit if not next time i probably wont .

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:27 am

I don't understand the justification in it being shipped with the game.

to spite you personally. Bethesda hates you and wants you to suffer. everything you have ever loved is dead or dying, entirely by the whim of Todd Howard.

it is an optional feature. at worst it's something they spent a week on just to say they could have it, and it's there but it's completely not fleshed out and implementing it did not take any time away from other development duties. at best it's something they actually put a lot of effort into making not feel like [censored].

people [censored] and moan that Bethesda is turning TES into an ACTION ADVENTURE HACK AND SLASH or whatever the [censored] and they add frivolous non-combat [censored] like JOBS and DEEPER NPC INTERACTION that they don't have to add because they're turning TES into an action adventure hack and slash and people WHINE ABOUT IT ANYWAY. jesus christ.

go play Morrowind. stop following this game thinking WELL MAYBE IF I POST ENOUGH THEY'LL MAKE MORROWIND 2. let this argument die.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:50 am

You're still defending Bethesda.

It's not an opinion. How else would we know not to touch fire if we didn't heed the warnings from those who have? Touching it ourselves? Never works out well, and I'm speaking from experience.

The purpose of the construction set is to appease those who want to role play (that deeply, anyway). If Bethesda starts adding features that everyone "wants", what purpose does the construction set serve? To remove them? What a joke. Even if they're optional, you're still going to be presented with the option in some way, and you're always going to be seeing children. Features such as those are better fit to be mods and not included with a vanilla version of the game.

They aren't just testing features. They're tacking them on without any sort of added functionality. Children will be useless beyond the feeling of immersion, and even that fades away when you realize they're immortal (and seemingly become children out of nowhere and stay that way for the rest of the game). Marriage will be even worse. Like I said, it will either be bland and boring (find woman, talk to woman, ask woman to marry you, marry woman, add woman as companion, watch woman die, find new woman) or obtrusive and annoying (talk to woman for hours, make woman happy, beg woman to marry you, spent thousands on wedding and ring -- of course --, deal with woman during PMS, provide for woman, get woman pregnant, have child -- who will most likely never age or come out being 6 years old --, provide for child, etc..). I don't see it being a very popular feature at all, so I don't understand the justification in it being shipped with the game.

If you insist.

If my defending a particular feature amounts to me defending Bethesda then so be it. -shrugs- Your point?

And yes, its an opinion. Just because someone did a bad job implementing a particular feature in Game A, you have absolutely no proof that it will be implemented badly in Game B. There is simply no connection, regardless of how much you want it to be.

The purpose of the construction kit is to "appease those who want to role play"? Can you show me an interview or documentation by Bethesda that says this? Otherwise, I'm assuming you just yanked this out of nowhere. I thought that the vanilla game was an RPG? Maybe not? Can't say much more to this because it sounds like the rest of that paragraph is falling into the opinion thing again. -shrugs-

And don't start arguing with me about whether or not its "testing" or "tackling them head on". Wasn't it you who said they were "testing" in the first place? Go back and read, but don't try to edit that post to make it sound like YOU didn't say that. You're the one who is changing what you said.

Anyways, again, the rest of your paragraph goes into your opinions about an optional feature that you're not required to use, so I"m not sure what else to say there. -shrugs-

And what is it that I'm "insisting?"

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:01 pm

Just because it's an optional feature doesn't justify it being offered at all. Adding tanks and machine guns would ruin the game, even if they were optional.

Deeper NPC interaction =/= marriage. Instead of developing a system that offers marriage, they could have made a far better companion system. I don't mind jobs at all, especially because of how the economy will play out, but marriage is going to far.

Yeah, because people posting on the forum does absolutely nothing, right? Dragons were added simply because Todd has some sort of fetish for them, I bet.

--

No, not just Game A, but Game B, C, D, E and F. And you've got real life, where it isn't exactly as excting as fighting dragons or as visually satisfying as flowing streams or huge mountains.

The purpose of the creation kit is so that players could make the game their own, and most of the mods you see allow for players to have a deeper role-playing experience.

I said tacking, not tackling. Quite a big difference.

Yes, and yet the same group of people who adamantly defend or support marriage in-game would also likely rage on about how machine guns, cyborgs, tanks, robots, Barrack Obama and that guy from Trigun shouldn't be in-game either. Even if you're defending the Bethesda in their decision to add such a feature, it's still just your opinion that they did the right thing and that people like me are wrong or should just not use such features. The entirety of this thread is made up of opinions from both sides.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:03 pm

Don't accept marriage as a feature and add it through the creation kit?

See, I can do that too.

From everything I've read it seems like you just want a repackaged Morrowind. They need to add new features to advance the series; this is just one of them, and an optional one at that.

If it bothers you that much, why not just use the creation kit to remove it? Your tanks and machine gun rantings don't hold any water either. Both of those are foreign to the TES world. Marriage isn't.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:30 pm

Just because it's an optional feature doesn't justify it being offered at all. Adding tanks and machine guns would ruin the game, even if they were optional.

Once again. Slippery slope fallacy. There is no connection.

Deeper NPC interaction =/= marriage. Instead of developing a system that offers marriage, they could have made a far better companion system. I don't mind jobs at all, especially because of how the economy will play out, but marriage is going to far.

Personal opinion. Again.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:27 am

-steps away from the board and looks around the classroom-

Any questions? :cool:

*bows in humble gratitude* Thank you good sir. I am sure all the finer points of logic will be ignored by the detractors, but at least the points were made, and hopefully made well.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:16 am

"Optional" isn't a solution to every problem. One game can't cater to everyone.

It is the solution every problem.. by not making it a option in game only allows 1/3 of the audience to have options which things such as marriages cannot be added successfully. Sure you can go find that huge list of over-exaggerated options but adding more content to a open world sandbox game allows more of the audience to enjoy the way they want too and play a game that caters to them the most.

Options is what TES is and Fallout is either you like it or not it is.. Every TES is a open world it isn't a run and go kill something run again talk to something run to a cave find something defeat big boss with that something win the game ONLY that option however is in the game for those who want to do that which are the ones who play 11 hours maybe 13 buy the next big game or back to MP games and move on leaving hours of content unexplored..

If TES was that I wouldn't be playing it for 1k+ hours let alone 30 hours..

Marriages and Jobs is purely optional and purely RP considering this is a RPG it fits well in the game.. the more content the merrier adding something and having it totally blow up in Beths face is better then never adding it in any game or put in a future game and find out the same thing.. They put it in now they can build/improve on it next game even if it is 110% successful.

If you want a true example of Options = better I can give one right nowhttp://www.minecraft.net/ Even today more options keep popping up even more new players are buying game because of it. It allows you to either be a miner, fighter, farmer, explorer, fisher, shop owner, builder, house owner, mayor, knight, railway conductor, overseer, forester, smithy, even marriages if your are pure Role player with another person, almost anything you can think of in one game online or offline if you want. Considering has sold over 2.8 almost 3 million copies without me even seeing a commercial on TV just fans posting how vivid the options are that attracts everyone with any play style anywhere I would say that options DO fix everything.. even if your graphics guru you love the game because the game can look great with the right touches...

With that said, I want options that I have control over like being able to toggle in game things such as HUD each individual part of it should have a on/off without type ~ hideHUD or whatever in console (adjustable size/location even better), finishing cinemas should be toggle-able or anything that jumps the character to 3rd person without player doing so, marriges and jobs should not be required to complete the main quests or the majority of the game for that matter, fighting dragons should be a option you don't want to fight run away which is doable and confirmed by Todd himself, owning a house shouldn't be required to finish the majority of the game same as jobs and marriages, doing the main quest should be optional which is what Beth has done quite a bit in previous titles..

I could go on but if I had to list of every option in previous titles it would be longer then average 200 post thread in one..

To sum it for all those who didn't want to read all of that More options = Better GAME

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:28 pm

Once again. Slippery slope fallacy. There is no connection.

Personal opinion. Again.

There is a connection, and that is the justification in offering optional features.

Wrong.

From everything I've read it seems like you just want a repackaged Morrowind. They need to add new features to advance the series; this is just one of them, and an optional one at that.

No, not quite. I'm done with Morrowind, and have been for a long time. What I don't want is a repackaged Fable game.

More options = Better GAME

Alright, I'll bite. It took Bethesda how long to develop Skyrim? Quite a few years. How long would it have take them to develop a game with hundreds of optional features? How far in depth would those features be (seeing as they wouldn't be used by everyone)? How would they affect the lore, or future TES games? How would they affect the engine and performance of the game? Oh, and how would consoles be able to toggle them on or off without having to scroll down a massive list of utterly useless add-ons that cater to select groups of players?

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:39 pm

It is the solution every problem.. by not making it a option in game only allows 1/3 of the audience to have options which things such as marriages cannot be added successfully. Sure you can go find that huge list of over-exaggerated options but adding more content to a open world sandbox game allows more of the audience to enjoy the way they want too and play a game that caters to them the most.

Options is what TES is and Fallout is either you like it or not it is.. Every TES is a open world it isn't a run and go kill something run again talk to something run to a cave find something defeat big boss with that something win the game ONLY that option however is in the game for those who want to do that which are the ones who play 11 hours maybe 13 buy the next big game or back to MP games and move on leaving hours of content unexplored..

If TES was that I wouldn't be playing it for 1k+ hours let alone 30 hours..

Marriages and Jobs is purely optional and purely RP considering this is a RPG it fits well in the game.. the more content the merrier adding something and having it totally blow up in Beths face is better then never adding it in any game or put in a future game and find out the same thing.. They put it in now they can build/improve on it next game even if it is 110% successful.

If you want a true example of Options = better I can give one right nowhttp://www.minecraft.net/ Even today more options keep popping up even more new players are buying game because of it. It allows you to either be a miner, fighter, farmer, explorer, fisher, shop owner, builder, house owner, mayor, knight, railway conductor, overseer, forester, smithy, even marriages if your are pure Role player with another person, almost anything you can think of in one game online or offline if you want. Considering has sold over 2.8 almost 3 million copies without me even seeing a commercial on TV just fans posting how vivid the options are that attracts everyone with any play style anywhere I would say that options DO fix everything.. even if your graphics guru you love the game because the game can look great with the right touches...

With that said, I want options that I have control over like being able to toggle in game things such as HUD each individual part of it should have a on/off without type ~ hideHUD or whatever in console (adjustable size/location even better), finishing cinemas should be toggle-able or anything that jumps the character to 3rd person without player doing so, marriges and jobs should not be required to complete the main quests or the majority of the game for that matter, fighting dragons should be a option you don't want to fight run away which is doable and confirmed by Todd himself, owning a house shouldn't be required to finish the majority of the game same as jobs and marriages, doing the main quest should be optional which is what Beth has done quite a bit in previous titles..

I could go on but if I had to list of every option in previous titles it would be longer then average 200 post thread in one..

To sum it for all those who didn't want to read all of that More options = Better GAME

BUT WAIT!!! THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT FISHING!!! OR MINING!!! OR SMITHING!!! ITS ABOUT BEING THE DOVAHKIIN!!! THERE WAS NO FISHING, MINING, OR SMITHING IN MORROWIND!!! WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE IN SKYRIM?!?!?!