one thing with playing mmm that has happened to me repeatedly is that at times, I keep going and see no spawns, then I quick save and quick reload, and the spawns show up.

wonder if it is something with the buffers?

Martigen would know, I have no idea really but I wouldn't think so.

I know MMM creates variables for the NPC size and it does of course create a bunch of new skins for creatures but I don't think it deals with the human NPCs.

I had that same problem as Wolfbain.

Hurm, I had this as well, not really sure why it happens though at the moment. Major areas that I had this occuring is at Jefferson Memorial and areas in front of the Museum of History, for now I can only say it's random. An area where I know was suppose to to be crawling with mutants appeared deserted, so I felt weird, save the game and load it back, the area will be occupied again. I had this while using RC2 once. With RC4, it occurs a number of times already. I updated the game according to the instruction, using patch 1.6, masterupdate

That may be your problem then.

I was to understand that particular addon or whatever it is (never needed it as I took a hiatus from fallout from 1.3 or 4 to now) is no longer necessary.

Yeah, I'm using the July 8th update of FOIP. I downloaded it at the same time I was downloading the MMMF3 file.

I disabled my MergedPatch.esp plugin, waited inside my house for 4 days, and this appears to have fixed it... kinda. I think. I've not had the chance to play as much the past few days, real life things, and such. Plus, I've been downtown DC and in the Metro Tunnels most of the past 2 days... the mass spawns happened up north... I noticed them in an area between Big Town, Paradise Falls, Mine Field, and Bethesda Ruins, and also around Super-Duper Mart and Grayditch.

Tonight I did some stalking around Jury Street Metro and Arefu, and only saw one group of 5 Deathclaw Young running in the distance, and found a spot where about 5 or 6 Rad Scorpions got wasted in a clump. It'll take some more playtesting before I can say 100% that disableing my MergedPatch.esp fixed it.

But... so far, so good.

Thanks for the help Martigen.

I have a nickname for the spawn on my game : The Backup

You can kill 15+ enemies and clear a entire area out, then suddenly you have a whole armada appearing behind a corner going straight for you. Also noticed sometimes like underground areas you can clear them out, then you can for 5 seconds jump into another area and go back and you've got the same amount of mutants spawned again.

So I'm guessing instead of spawning so many at once it does a progressive spawning, if so is better in my book.

Nothing better than clearing out a narrow street full of Super Mutants, and then going back 15 minutes later to notice a 20 man Talon Company Merc crew scavange the Tri Beam Lasers and other goodies and just progress toward you

In which areas you have this effect?

i have power armour helmet that when you hit the pipboy light with the helmet on i get nightvision instead of the pipboylight...how do i change this back to the pipboy light?It never used to be like this,it only changed when i reinstalled mmmf v4,but no matter how much i reinstall certain mods it always remains with the nightvision..any ideas please

Fallout3.esm
Anchorage.esm
ThePitt.esm
BrokenSteel.esm
PointLookout.esm
EnclaveCommander-OA-Pitt-Steel.esm
Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm
Sharing and Caring Companions.esm
CALIBR.esm
CRAFT.esm
FOOK.esm
Mart's Mutant Mod.esm
Meet the Devs.ESP
DLC Repair Fix.esp
xrepair-custom-only.esp
xrepair-scrap-only.esp
XFO_barter_fix_harder.esp
XFO_Cripple_fixes.esp
XFO_Degradation_fixes.esp
XFO_Enemy_rebalance (no MMM or FOOK).esp
XFO_food_water_changes.esp
XFO_Gore_fixes.esp
XFO_Immersion_Necessities.esp
XFO_Karma_changes.esp
XFO_misc_tweaks.esp
XFO_Pacing_Epic.esp
XFO_Pacing_Extra_Levels.esp
XFO_Perk_Flaws.esp
XFO_Perk_paths.esp
XFO_Perk_rebalance.esp
XFO_Playstyles.esp
XFO_Radiation_changes.esp
XFO_rarity_ammo_high_FOOK.esp
XFO_rarity_drugs_high.esp
XFO_Sneak_Rebalance_mild.esp
XFO_SPECIAL_DnD.esp
XFO_Speed_increase.esp
XFO_SP_Fix2_(SP10_TAGx2_INTxHalf).esp
XFO_Stat_changes.esp
XFO_Timescale_med.esp
XFO_VATSdmg_75.esp
XFO_Weapon_Jamming.esp
XFO_Weapskill_accuracy_notdmg_mild_FOOK.esp
ALIEN INVASION 2.esp
ALIEN INVASION.esp
Ammo_Dispenser.esp
Ammo_Schematics.esp
CRAFT - Activation Perk.esp
ClassicEnclaveAPA-Better-APA-english.esp
jmschematics.esp
Stealthboy Recon Armor - CRAFT.esp
Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.esp
Enhanced Weather - Radioactive Rain Plugin.esp
Fellout-Full.esp
Fellout-pipboylight.esp
Fellout-Anchorage.esp
Fellout-BrokenSteel.esp
BetterHeadshots.esp
BrokenSteelFix-GNRAnnouncements.esp
CALIBR Ammo Schematics - CRAFT.esp
The Car Fort With Quests.esp
CALIBRxMerchant.esp
RRRU +4.esp
Death Canyon v3.esp
Delaida.esp
DK_BulletTime.esp
DTOMRC3.esp
NecronomiconExMortis 5.5.esp
Echo_BatteryCharger.esp
firelance-quest.esp
FOOK - Broken Steel.esp
FOOK - Point Lookout.esp
FOOK - The Pitt.esp
FOOK - Anchorage.esp
JSF v.1.esp
KORsVaultHome.esp
WeaponModKits.esp
Krigos2SVD.esp
FOOK - Anchorage hotfix.esp
WeaponModKits - FOOK.esp
FOOK - Strength Requirements for Miniguns, Gatlings, 20mm Flak.esp
FOOK.esp
MaxLevelWorkaround-BS.esp
MaxLevelWorkaround-HP-BS.esp
merc.esp
Mighty Mouse Alternative 4.esp
Dree Perks.esp
Dree Perks Pitts.esp
Dree Perks Requested by Fans .esp
MoreMapMarkers.esp
My_Megaton_House.esp
NightvisionGoggles(Powered).esp
noautoaim.esp
NoTracers.esp
Old Military Bunker 1.4.esp
Owned!.esp
Pirata.esp
10-Year-Respawn.esp
richvendors.esp
RobCo Certified.esp
Trophies - Megaton.esp
ShellRain.esp
GalaxyNewsRadioFix[S].esp
telescope_quest_fdt.esp
Treasure Maps_Bobblehead Edition.esp
Treasure Maps_Underground.esp
Project Beauty.esp
UPP - Beverage Perks.esp
UPP - Experience Perks.esp
UPP - Pack 1.esp
UPP - Pack 2.esp
UPP - Quest Perks.esp
DarNifiedUIF3.esp
DUIF3Extras.esp
MX_Vault74_eng.esp
MX_Vault74fix.esp
Vault74hotfix.esp
Vault010.esp
MTC Wasteland Travellers.esp
CrossRepairArmor.esp
Location 2 (Fort Constantine).esp
Vault 89 (player home) V1-30.esp
MTC Wasteland Travellers (Optional)- Crowded Cities.esp
WastelandMastery.esp
WeightRebalance.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - FOOK.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - XFO + FOOK.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Increased Spawns.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Hunting & Looting.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Natural Selection.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - No Corpse Flies.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - Tougher Traders.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.esp
Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.esp

Total active plugins: 137
Total plugins: 141

I came across a 35 person strong Outcast patrol just now! Yes, 35 outcasts walking in line down the road. I followed them for a while and had a blast. Nothing could match them and I've never seen Fairfax Ruins cleared so quick.
I play with increased spawns, but I've never had quite so many spawn at once.
I'm also noticing that there seems to be a lot more of everything spawning near each other. I'm regularly walking into killing fields containing a variety of creatures. I seem to come across a lot of Deathclaw young, usually in groups of 3-4, and Slavers with no Slaves, with a mixture of bloatflies, molerats, Yao-Gui and Radscorpions.
I don't mind that so much, makes the wasteland seem more alive and dynamic to have these battles occuring just before I get there, but I do think 35 outcasts together is a little bit of overkill

Good to hear.



There are no cell edits in MMM, and no spawn point edits. It only changes what spawns at a point, and in what number if it's a level-list based point used for random monsters. No static or set points are altered. No scripted events are altered either, for obvious reasons (again, anything but random encounters aren't touched).

So no changes in L'Enfant.


Masterupdate isn't needed anymore, can you reverse it?

Keep in mind also the following: when creatures respawn in cells that allow them to respawn, they respawn where they die. If you lead a group of muties from L'Enfant two cells away, and this group includes the original parent spawns (i.e, the original vanilla spawn if MMM wasn't loaded), when they respawn after a cell reset that's where they will respawn (and then spawn Increased Spawns next to themselves). This is simply a mechanic of the game and there's nothing I can do to change it.


Not heard that before. You've done a full-on clean-save upgrade as per the upgrade instructions when you installed RC4? Including waiting 9 days instead of 4 if you use FWE?

I would try clearning your savegame of all non-essential mods (meaning, don't clear any that add equipment you want to keep, and some mods like perk mods won't let you remove them (game won't load f they're not ticked)).


Someone on here mentioned a problem that was fixed when they removed their weather mod, though I don't know how that could affect Feral Ghouls (unless it's a dirty mod, and edited records it shouldn't have touched).



MMM has code to detect if a creature is being gooified or turned to ash, and to not do things like ressurrect ghouls or add skeletons. If a weapon from a new mod adds its own effect, MMM can't know about it and won't be able to prevent raising/skeletons from happening. Does Jingwei's shock sword add its own ash spell?



I'm in the process of talking to Qebehsenuf to help him make a master of his mod, and then I can add MMM, FOOK, FWE modules.



Yeah I've heard this too occasionally. No idea what causes it, but it's not MMM, it's part of the original game (though MMM may show it up more). There's also a weird quirk where the game 'loses time' the more you play. People have reported the time of day and dates being way off later in the games, and while this is largely a cosmetic effect, it can affect AI schedules and -- in the case of MMM prior to RC4 -- when spawns were being removed. RC3 was relying on GetGameDaysPassed and I was seeing some strange things where spawns wouldn't disappear when they should, and it's not the code: it was a very simple time passed check.

RC4 uses a system based on cell resets. Doesn't matter what the in-game timeframe is now, when a cell resets all spawns do.

On the whole Fallout is a beautiful game, but it's so fragile compared to Oblivion. You had weird things in Oblivion, and odd issues to work around, but the game never CTDed no matter what was going on with a mod. In Fallout if you look at it the wrong way it will crash. Just to be clear -- I've worked on MMM for 9 months now, and literally half that time was spent working around quirks, bugs, and foibles in the engine (like all of the above), not actually coding, or designing, or even playing. To say it's a labour of love is incorrect -- this has not been fun. Like the week I spent wasted on Hunting & Looting where Bethesda's own functions for chaining AI package results would cause an instant CTD -- this isn't a bug in a script, it's using a pre-defined feature of the engine, enabled with a few simple fields. Guaranteed crash.

Oblivion was a rock, it rarely, if ever, died. Its functions worked, the engine was stable. Bugs in a mod really were in the mod. In Fallout, you never know if it's the mod or yet another quirk of the engine, which you then work around by re-solving a problem you've already solved to see if that solution won't cause it to collapse. Then you do it again, and again, and again... until hopefully you find a solution, a mehtod, that does what you want without the game vomiting all over your screen.

I digress. But I think Fallout will be the last Bethesda game I mod.

If I understood Elminister correctly it can't be reversed with a saved game that was made with MasterUpdate involved. This was after I tried MasterRestoring back to the original esm/esp format and my game crashing immediately upon loading until I restored my backup to the MasterUpdate setup I'd been playing on since the patch 1.5 fiasco. Fortunately I've been able to continue using MasterUpdate even after patching to 1.6 with no apparent issues.

EDIT: It's notable that MMM RC3 was working with large spawn sizes, etc. with this setup and I've only noticed this problem with reduced/seemingly missing super mutants in the last few days. As I wander around DC a bit more, I *think* I'm seeing less super mutants in general. Like the Mall didn't seem crowded with them and the entire area should have respawned and been packed with them if I haven't visited in 30+ ingame days right?



I don't use FWE, and I did follow the directions to the letter as always. However, I'm not positive that the Ghoul Rampage error is happening anymore as I've been able to enter Hazmat Disposal Site L5 (metro/ruined tunnels area between Mall Southwest and L'Enfant Plaza) without the 2 second CTD. I need to go try other downtown DC metro entrances to see if it has gone away.



I'll try this and report back on what happens.



I removed all recent changes, including Weather Enhanced - Rain and Snow, and went through the clean uninstall and reinstall of MMM RC4 afterward and it doesn't appear those mods were the problem as the lack of super mutants in what should be a pretty heavy action area (L'Enfant Plaza) persisted.



Sorry to hear this Martigen, more than anything else that you haven't been having as much fun as maybe you did with Oblivion. I can only imagine the frustrations of so much wrestling with the Fallout 3 engine when Oblivion was more stable, and that things can look a bit bleak on the forums here when there are issues cropping up. I hope, regardless of whether you mod in the future for Bethesda games or not, you come away from it all knowing that you've provided countless players with innumerable hours of enjoyment with your MMM mods. You genuinely improve on the gaming experience so much that I find the games a skeleton of themselves when faced with not having MMM activated. Thanks so much for all your hard work, it is really really appreciated.

That's unfortunate, but very understandable.

Perhaps this is a sign that MMMF3 should focus more on the (presumably more fun) concept of adding new creatures and less on the cumbersome labor of adding new features. As cool as things like wounding sound, they certainly cause more issues than adding in a new type of ghoul.

All of the above is nothing more than my assumptions on the subject, and I hope that whatever direction MMMF3 goes, it takes your enjoyment into consideration just as much as ours. ^_^

I agree.
Without such mods as MMM I don't see the point to obtain future games from Bethesda.
Moreover- I obtain fallout 3 ONLY because I was sure in interest, which will be to this game from Oblivion mod-maker community
I'm not mod-maker, but not sure will I have in the future such many time and desire to play such games.
But I am optimist and hope to the best

Thanks, Martigen, for all your hard work.
Fixed issues in MMM, FWE and my own success in receiving game stability convert this game from the peace of interesting crap to something more appropriate.

Quick update, I disabled every mod except for the official DLC's and a couple of equipment mods that I've been using forever and MMM RC4 and addons and noticed no change in my current situation (major noticeable issues being the lack of abundant super mutants where expected and NPCs no longer have conversations, they just greet each other and say goodbye). I'm wondering if my saved game is just too well-loved at this point to not start falling apart? 24 megs is its file size and nearly 400 hours of playtime is maybe pushing the limits of what Fallout 3 can handle?

It may be. When you disable the mod, you disable also all it/s futures and bugs, so the game must to return to vanilla status. At least- in most things.
If it is not happen, then IMHO your game ruined itself. So it is time for the new game
Especially if you keep your saves from 1.5 patch

It occurs to me now that perhaps what's going on is that what you saw then was the ever-increasing spawns bug of RC2/RC3 and what you're seeing now is in fact the spawns working correctly. In RC2/RC3 the extra actors added by Increased Spawns weren't being properly removed, so every time the cell reset the spawns got bigger and bigger. It's possible a place like the Plaza could have had a lot of muties there if you had been through there more than once. Killing them would reduce the numbers, but the process would continue and would build up again. This is fixed in RC4, so that the numbers you specify for Increased Spawns are honoured as they should be.

Perhaps you're seeing an anti-bug The solution then if you want more spawns is Increased Increased Spawns, or to set your own values, but of course this applies globally as well.


It's not clear from how you've described it -- and just in general for everyone when doing this -- but did you disable those mods, load and save and quit, and then load again to see what effect they had? Disabling should be enough, but saving with a mod removed guarantees the savegame is emptied of all data associated with it. Then loading that cleaned savegame you can be sure it's that-particular-or-all-mods-free.

But again, as above, you may not have an issue in this case!


Thank you very much for saying this, it means a lot. Thanks also to delamer and caran. It's always good to know my work (and the work of others that have contributed) is appreciated.

1. how do I check for the spell?

2. was a response to another to let em know they are not alone.

3. with obliv I crashed a lot in vanilla, and no clue why they made fallout so fragile if they were using obliv as a model.

4. please say it isnt so!

1. You may open all your mods in FO3edit, open mod with this weapon, check in weapon group this weapon, what is placed in EFFECT fields.
Then open BASE EFFECT group and see for this effect presence here. If effect don't correspondent with fallout3 esm or MMM- it is new
2. Yes, I see this myself in vanilla, when after reload in cleared location I was surrounded with enemies
4.

the effect is AlienDisintegrationFXSpell "Disintegration" [SPEL:0005C6C3]
also noticed that occassionally with glowing ones only, their ash piles arent always labels ash piles, part of the time they still are labeled glowing one.
I thought alien blaster did goo piles, not ash. and the weapon is dlc content


laser ash piles are from the effect spel000BDA30

For as sad as this sounds, I don't blame you. I just found out from Mezmorelda (FWE) that one of my crazy crash issues can be reproduced, and is most likely the result of another engine quirk. I've been fighting with this game for weeks trying to get it to not crash, and this is the problem, I can never tell if it's a mod specific problem, my hardware, or another stupid engine quirk. I hate coming on these forums and listing my mod order in a specific mod thread for technical issues, especially if I'm not even sure if the mod itself is at fault. Bug testing the actual mods and getting feedback is important, but its frustrating with this engine it seems. It's been a nightmare actually trying to get this game to function properly, but in my mind its worth because mods like MMM actually make the game worthwhile and enjoyable to play. The vanilla game can't even compare to what some of the talented modders around here have come up with. I just wish the damn game was more stable...this is the only game I've ever played thats so susceptible to a million and one different things that could potentially cause it to crash.

Anyway, myself and many many others appreciate your hard word Martigen. You've made the game better, despite the buggy foundation.

what beth should do Once, and I repeat once, is make a stable base world

including music, minimal dialog, all creature and weapon sounds

release a complete set of stable tools for modders, and let it go.

Imagine what the modding community could do with that.

Month ago I almost give up. I was no able anymore to be in peace with this bugs. But I was not able to do even this

Hey!

I am, first of all, surprised. I've always had CTDs in Oblivion, but so much less in Fallout. Maybe it was because my load order was so much larger for that game. I've always seen Fallout as a big step towards stability.
However, that's just from my perspective as a player, and with the amount of work you've put into both your Monster and Mutant mods, I'm certain you're closer to the truth than I am.

I can imagine how frustrating this must have been for you. And I'm sorry you feel so close to burn out. Nevertheless, modding is a passion, and when that is suffocated by quirks and unexplainable bugs, not much remains. All we could ask is that you give it a shot - on the next game I mean. Maybe it will be better.

And know that MMM *is* the core of both my Oblivion and Fallout experience, and your work, and that of your collaborators, is immensely appreciated. You've brought two universes to life, and that's no small feat. Take a break, play the game, then return to bug-fixing with a fresh mind and a spirit aflame.

Now I'm not sure anymore if I should post this, but it's the reason I came here tonight. Not a gamebreaker, and a one-time event, as far as I can tell. I was near one of them churches with mutants, brutes, centaurs and floaters. I was getting swarmed and I reloaded a couple of times. I was, at the moment, under attack by two mutants and one centaur. No idea if any floaters were "engaged". The game CTD-ed, then I couldn't load the save anymore. I had one a a while back, but in a close cell - that didn't load either - CTD on load.
I disabled every mod, and reduced the issue to MMM.esm. Of course, without that, no other MMM plugins worked, but just with it, the game wouldn't load.
Before you ask, I made a clean install with RC4 and started a new game.
Don't beat your head over this though. I reported it because if it happens to other people, then we'd know it's an issue. Otherwise, it's too general to identify, and I can't reproduce it either.
What worked was taking an older save, in another location. Then, when I went back to the church, I had the NoFloaters plugin enabled (I tried adding it during bug-testing to see if it would load with it). The thing didn't happen again. Might have nothing to do with floaters at all.

At any rate, don't fret! And thank you for every second you gave up to make thousands of us happy.

Cheers!

cc

Doh, I hadn't even considered this. I'm wondering now the best way to check this myself. If I understand correctly, MMM doesn't actually add spawn points, but global variables that alter how many of something from the lists spawns at a given point, right? Allow me to further reveal my level of GECK ignorance here, but are the spawn points actually placed in the vanilla game though? Like a marker I could see placed about an area and count by loading up just Fallout.esm (perhaps with BrokenSteel as well) in the GECK and just looking from area to area and knowing, 'Okay, something should be spawning around here and here and here and here'?

Would anyone else using RC4 and Increased or Increased Increased Spawns be willing to fast travel to L'Enfant Plaza and briefly describe the amount and general location of spawns they're seeing from the plaza (the area near the Hazmat Disposal Site L5 entrance and glass pyramid) to the Irradiated Metro entrance near the newspaper building?

Mine have generally always been in the same places, just varying in size and intensity. What I'm currently seeing is four or five mutants underneath the dead end bridge with the crash truck on it to the right of the plaza when you enter from the Hazmat Disposal Site L5 entrance, one or two mutants near the row of shops with the gentleman's club behind them and toward the diner (one of these mutants is always an Overlord for me), and five Talon Company mercenaries right around the entrance to the Irradiated Metro sewers. That's it for the entire area.

I'll go back and re-check tonight, but I'm pretty sure the spawn near the shops didn't change when I switched from Increased to Increased Increased Spawns. During several tests of trying different things, it is always either a super mutant overlord alone or with a super mutant brute and they're always on that 'shelf' area overlooking the street and row of shops. The last few tests (with Increased Spawns) it has just been the single overlord.



I think what I do is probably overkill, but I add four days of resting on the front and end of every step just to be sure. So I go to my Tenpenny Suite, rest four days and save. Log out, disable whatever mods, then log back in and rest for four days. Then save and log out, re-enable or add or make whatever changes, then log back in and rest for another four days, then save and then play. Does that sound right?