So I played this game for a bit and picked a few factions. Finished the game siding with the Railroad on my first playthrough, but can't get around something odd. Why does every faction want you to be a mass murderer? Everyone goes on and on about destroying each other and blowing up the institute (which is ludicrous because the player will be the LEADER of the institute so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to blow it up. It is nonsense, stupid, probably even [censored] to even think this up.). So in order to go on you have to wipe out a whole bunch of people (you probably befriended, and they even seem like nice people!) AND blow up your son (wait WUT??), unless you side with the institute which only forces you to murder two other factions. Because hey, murder is good!

So is there any way to play this game as a "good guy" that doesn't require me to kill people just because they have a different agenda or blow up my own kid? I think the Minutemen is the least awful, but that one still forces you to blow up your own flesh and blood. NO ONE ON THIS PLANET WOULD DO THAT UNLESS THEY ARE INSANE BETHESDA!!!

Finishing the game and siding with the Railroad left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt I made a bad choice, but looking into the options it didn't really matter what I picked. Every choice seems bad.

/rant

Welcome to the real world where the warring factions are not good or evil, and where their stances and ideals often make them irreconcilable. It's war, and war never changes.

In other words, you think it's a rant, but to people who write these kinds of stories it's a song for their ears XP (and judging by the Far Harbor's description, Beth seems very much satisfied by it).

Really, having to decide which ending is the most beneficial is the part of the fun.

A lot of people would, a many don't see children never raised by them to be their children. I disagree, but that's how many people think... or claim to think because if he were a symbol of chivalry, all would be "He is my Sole Survivor's son!"

Welcome to Fallout 4! I also wish there would have been a more diplomatic option towards the end. Heck, in Fallout New Vegas, I can even persuade Lanius of the Legion to quit the field and NOT fight me or my troop with a 100 speech check.

So far, I like the Minutemen ending the best, because heck, I don't even like Shaun and I have meet him twice so far and his personality didn't improve during the 2nd meeting lol.

There are many, many discussions on the forums about the ending. And there are a lot of diverse opinions out there, over which one might be the best.

I've sort of stalled the main quest in my current run ( previously I saved before critical points and played through several of the endings ) for this very reason.

I wish they would move the "final choice" point to a more logical place, though. As it is, when the Institute wants to check out Mass Fusion for some doo-dad, that immediately pisses off the BoS and if you "squeal" to the BoS about the Institute's scavenging plans, the Institute hates you forever. All over some scavenging?

Now, if the Institute had said, "The BoS is a pain, we want to blow up their blimp and kill all the children there!" then I could see accepting THAT mission as a final thumb in the eye of the BoS and a good point for my character to say, "Aaaaah, yeeeeeah, I'll think on that and get back to you"....

And likewise, when the BoS says, "Let's invade and nuke the Institute and kill all the people there!" would be a good time for me to say, "Yeeeeah, about that.... I still need some more time for my, ah, infiltration of the Institute to get more results, so just hold off on that for a while...."

And when the Institute says, "The Railroad needs to be destroyed!" I would have preferred the option to say,. "Really? Some rag-tag group of maybe a dozen guys in tattered leather coats is a threat to you? Come on, let's get back to some science here".....

And when the Railroad says, "Let's break out ALL the synths and then nuke the Institute!"... it would be nice to be able to say, "But.... but the Institute ~created~ the Synths you're trying to free from slavery. Why destroy them? Better to let me infiltrate them, become Director and make them treat Gen 3s as sentient equals"....

But noooooo.... flip that trigger and everyone turns into mass murderers.

Because explosions are cool.

I approve of Bethesda, essentially making every faction both good and evil. Though in some ways it comes down to two choices.

Side with the RR, BOS or MM, and commit mass murder, bordering on the genocide of an entire society, many of its members being innocent non-combatants. But at least you will remove the most evil faction in the CW, and the people will sing your praises. Though depending on faction choice there could be some consequences that are distressing.

Side with the Institute, a faction some members of which, including your son, have committed unspeakable atrocities. But the Main Quest has you fight legitimate Military targets, with the real likelihood of killing no children even collaterally. Also as a bonus, you get your son back, even if only for a few moments on his deathbed. The people will not sing your praises. Nick and Piper chew you out. You also get to be the boss at the end with the real expectation of enacting reforms.

Some scavenging? you are stealing a very high-tech device that can solve all of their energy problems.

Besides, the BoS and the Institute do not want you to work with the other. The moment you choose one's side in a major battle, you prove where your loyalties lie. Maxson sure as hell won't tolerate you killing dozens of his brethren and Shaun will get pissed that you tried to ruin Institute's long dream of solving the VERY MAJOR power problems and you joined a faction that wanted to eradicate Shaun and all the people he cares about.

What infiltration? Railroad are the only ones who care about it, BoS gets what they wanted the moment you hack Institute's terminal. Madison is a bonus that they would want, but they have a back-up plan if they don't get her. You got what they sent you for, infiltration is no longer necessary and your sympathy to the Institute is unwanted.

Yeah... rag-tag group that has efficiently fought against the Institute for half a century or more and has survived ALL major attacks from the Institute. They are the only anti-Institute group that the Institute never managed to eradicate and, as Shaun says, they are just becoming more dangerous.

And that's not to mention that Railroad has stolen a number of Institute's tech over the decades and is capable of creating a teleporter to the Institute, especially now that they know that the Institute uses teleportation. The Railroad has long ago ceased to be just some rag-tag group and the last thing Institute needs is Railroad teleporting into the Institute while their military force is being spent on the BoS.

The Railroad views the world in black&white and for this reason even rejects to cooperate with the Minutemen. If the Minutemen are not to be trusted, why would they trust the Institute? And besides, trusting the Institute sounds like a trap.

And the Railroad does not care about Synths as a species. To them, Synths are humans and nothing else. Only created Synths matter, not the ones that might be created.

*Insert Kellogg's quote here*

You make no sense. Do you have children of your own? Where's the option that allows me to drag my son out of the institute and prevent him to go out in a nuclear explosion. It makes no sense to make the decision to blow him up unless you're a psychopath. Just because you disagree with him. I don't approve of a lot of things, including your opinion. That doesn't mean I have to shoot them (or you).

And you say welcome to the real world? In my real world I don't go outside with a minigun and mow down anything that has a red marker over their head. In a real world you'd at least have the option to not murder a whole bunch of people. Heck look outside, people are not murdering a whole lot of people on a daily basis. Not murdering a whole lot of people for no reason is part of my daily life. I understand the world is different in Fallout 4 and that it's a wasteland with a whole lot of badies, but the thing is. You play a person from before the war. A loving parent thrown into chaos and not at any point in the game are you driven to lose your humanity.

At least Pickman was crazy. But then again he only killed Raiders. I let him live, because in all honesty he is a better person than the game forces you to be. And the thing is, you can play as a civilized person the whole game and it still forces you to make an out of character decision like committing mass murder because it's a statement by Bethesda? It makes no sense. It's like the game wants you to be bad in the end, but never guides you there so it's a slap in the face instead leaving you perplexed thinking, what the f did I just play and why?

Where's the option to say, ok F you guys. You go and kill eachother, I'm gonna go pick up my son and live peacefully in sanctuary and make sure he has a decent deathbed.

I repeat: I disagree with it. And I disagree with it whole-heartedly and could never RP my character doing anything but the Institute ending for this reason.

I am just mentioning that a lot of people make excuses for not only betraying him, but killing him before Nuclear Option.

I did not know that the real world started in 21st century and is limited too USA, Japan and western Europe! Sorry, my bad!

Dearie, learn history and about what happens in the rest of the world (and not through propaganda or Hollywood). Comparing your life to that of anyone living in the Commonwealth is the stupidest thing you can do. The Sole Survivor is not walking around 21st century Boston of our world, but something resembling Middle Ages, Antiquity, current Syria, etc.

That your character is pre-war doesn't matter much: BoS, Institute, Railroad and Minutemen aren't, and neither is the world where the Sole Survivor found themselves in. Your enemies won't play by our Western rules (not pre-war because pre-war world in Fallout-verse was a Dystopia in USA and a war-ravaged hellhole almost everywhere else).

Nobody forces you to finish the MQ tbh. Not progressing through it anymore is a viable choice.

As for Shaun, he will never follow you. He has his family, the Institute, to protect from those who want to massacre them so he doesn't have time to play house.

The problem with the 'game ending' is that the ambitions, goals and post-ending faction behaviours aren't clearly defined.

For instance, we have a thread running which compares an Institute ending vs a BoS ending, where posters are debating which they prefer...but, which ignores two factors. First, does the Institute director hold dictatorial power and will never be held accountable for decisions; and second, the player never holds control of the BoS, he or she never becomes Elder.

The real issue about the game is that everyone expects, and perhaps wants, a 'good guy' ending. In FO4, you can actually have a bad guy ending...you can set up settlements as labour camps and prisons, you can wipe out threats to your faction, you can rule with an iron fist. It's perhaps easier to actually do this than it is to engineer a 'good guy' ending.

You misunderstand me and you also insult me. Please move along.

I don't need a good guy ending, I need an ending fitting of the style of play. The game allows you to play whatever you want and then haphazardly forces you to do something linear, because hey remember this is a post nuclear setting. If I'm supposed to be a bad person or make these types of mistakes so I have to live with the consequences the game can help me along this path. The only option you then have is to "not complete the game".

I completely understand why Bethesda made these factions and their ideals and choices, but the player interaction with them is completely random and out of place.

Trust me, this is just one of the many threads people complaining about the ending, specifically the Railroad. The ending is basically required you to dirty your hands, but basically it ends up with what you can get out of this. The RR has the worst outcome because your mentality is to save "people", but you end up killing more people and "people" than you can save. The entire world also throws into chaos as a result with supermutants and raiders kill settlers and you may also partake in killing hostile humans to protect machines. With the other endings, your mentality with the ending is different. With the BoS, you basically want to destroy all the abnormal creations like supermutants and feral ghouls. You know what they are about in the first place, instead of backhand you at the last moment about destroying the entire civilization. You either accept them or not, and you go through the entire game killing various dangerous creatures to protect the Commonwealth. In the ending, you know the Commonwealth at least have some level of protection from the BoS. The Institute is basically about a blank slate, it's basically family first for some people, so they would do everything in their power to make Shaun happy, at least that's what my Institute character did initially, there are also people who see the Institute as the future, and the Institute has pro-surface and pro-synths just as much as the other way around, so basically it can be appealing to both people who want to save synths and people who see synths as machine labor, they also have the technology for rebuilding the world. Basically, the RR took a 180 turn and change their objective and you think you did a good thing but end up destroying the Commonwealth instead while other endings, you know what you're getting into, and there is a sense of optimism with all the other endings rather than a depressing sense of betrayal and lies.

I agree with you, Aeons, in more than one sense, all the player character does is change the manner of the ending, rather than defining the future. It's like simply swapping out one breakfast cereal for another, when you actually want bacon and eggs.

Yeah I gathered that I wouldn't be the first. I thought the Railroad was there to free 'people' from slavery, because ghost in the shell etc etc they are people too etc etc. It's actually more humane than any other faction if I'm being honest. Their decision to then wipe out a whole bunch of people just didn't make any sense at all. All of them were friendly and likable. I can't see Tinker Tom going out there and kill innocent civilians at all, but he's right there saying yay press the switch and blow them up. It's completely out of character. Regardless of ideals and goals. They came across as totally sane people, but proved that they were clearly all insane.

I think having your son as the leader of the Institute was a very predictable outcome but brilliant, simply because it does give such a powerful dilemma that makes you step back and reconsider the Institute anew, even though up to the point of meeting him your whole goal was to basically get in there, rescue your son, and blow the place to hell.

I think there were a few factors that Bethesda tried to work into this to make killing Shaun viable. First and foremost, he is completely committed to the Institute and if you snoop around, you can get some information about the inner workings that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. He is not your son who happens to be the director. He is the director who happens to be your son. Second, Shaun comes off strange. He seems to want reconciliation, but he cares more about cementing the legacy of his organization than reuniting with you. I get the distinct feeling that he views you more as a tool and less as a long lost father, even though he does seem to put forth effort to reconcile with you. Asking him about the past though, especially the response he gives about the death of your spouse, blows my mind. He comes off as being a little brainwashed in all honesty, as though the Institute was prepping him for the day he would find out about what happened and making it so he would blame his mother for getting herself murdered. Seems off and that is a generous reading of it. Finally, Shaun is obviously strongly in the camp of synths =/= people, therefore, if you hold the exact opposite feeling, it would be very hard to let go of that and join your son. He doesn't seem to have the slightest concern about the making of synths, their use in the Commonwealth, or their ultimate purpose. This is especially disconcerting when you find out he made a synth version of himself for the sole purpose of having you treat it as him (reclaiming lost time). Really I thought this was the most touching gesture on Shaun's part, but it was also confusing as hell given what he supposedly believes.

I know none of that probably makes you feel better. I agree with Akul mainly; you love your family even if they go astray, but when I found Shaun for the first time, I remember feeling an ultimate sense of loss. I don't know where you fall personally on the nature/nurture debate, but obviously the environment you are raised in has a major impact in how you will think and grow, and I feel like Shaun had been "killed" by the Institute, by being indoctrinated with their ideas. No matter that we had found each other after all this time, he was my son but he wasn't my son. And, as much as I personally love my own family, I know that if they were doing something I was diametrically opposed to, I would do what I had to stop them. I'm not sure that what Shaun is doing with the Institute qualifies, but I do have enough hatred of the Institute, from in-game motivations, that I would destroy it, given the chance. Which you have to do in all ending but the Institute, but... I had kind of hoped that we would get the chance to save Shaun and have a life in Diamond City as part of the post-game.

I feel like people only take the synth saving part away from the Railroad. They are also just enemies of the Institute, in much the same way that the Brotherhood is. They want to end the Institute from playing god in the Commonwealth and creating more synths to use as slaves. I don't know if the Railroad reacts negatively to you if you do NOT sound the evacuation at the end of the game, but I believe that option is in the game exactly to quell the notion that they are insane. I never viewed them as insane at least, given all that goes on. They can come off as inconsistent, when they give you views about synths that don't line up, but they aren't organized into a singular entity, they are really kind of a group of people trying to fight for a humanitarian cause; not an organization. Certainly, in light of all the endings, they aren't anymore insane than the Brotherhood or Institute. I would say they come closest to being the good guys, Minutemen notwithstanding, but I know a lot of people disagree. As I said I don't think of them as insane, but I do think they are committed to their cause. Remember a lot of people have died fighting throughout history for the freedom of their fellow man. It is a powerful, unifying, and beautiful ideal.

Yeah, It wasn't unexpected to find he was the leader. I thought it was a cool idea and I do agree that it added to the detachment. Not so much though that I wanted to blow him up though.

When I went with the Railroad I talked to Shaun before leaving the institute to blow him up and he was quite clear how he felt about that decision and about me. It made no sense that I ended up with a boy version of Shaun at all. Shaun hated me. He didn't want to give me a means to see him grow up at all at that point.

Thing is, the Railroad felt right until the last mission. They didn't appear insane. And I didn't really want to go with the Minutemen at that point because Preston's Radiant quest spammer pissed me off so much I had to send him to a settlement with no one there so I could have some peace and quiet at last. I thought the Railroad would appeal to me being the leader of the Institute and tell me to release the Synths, which I would have done. There was no reason to blow the place up at all. I wasn't even given the option to convince the institute to go in a different direction. That's flawed narration if you ask me.

Uhm yeah, enemy is a word used in video game to give an archetype bad guy. I think Fallout is a world where black and white should also come in shades of grey. Ultimately it doesn't allow you the shades of grey. You just get to pretend they are there. Remember though that in all storylines you are the boss of the institute, but each and every faction seem to forget that having control of the institute is an option at all. That just doesn't make any sense.

The game was made to make the game grey, but there is a reason why they make the "RR" appear to be good while BoS and Institute appear to be bad because there are much more benefits overall with the BoS and the Institute who both have long term goals for the future while the RR is basically just save synths while leaving the Commonwealth in total chaos, not to mention waiting for the BoS to come back for revenge, while people being slaughtered by the supermutants and feral ghouls basically it just is the worst state of the world. The RR is just so irrelevant in the long scheme that they will be destroyed even in their ending realistically, the only ending where I see them have a chance of survival would be the Minutemen ending. It also takes a lot of suspension of disbelief just to have them win. The BoS basically knows where they are while the Institute took all their base, the BoS has the troops and raw power while the Institue has the technology, for a faction that on a verge of being killed and on their last legs, you are basically superhero that charge in and destroy everything else from them. It's not like a standstill. They should never even be a faction to be honest.

True. Choosing the Railroad felt like the stupidest thing I could have done. In the end I didn't help anyone. I just killed a bunch of people. Relatively innocent in the grant scheme of things too. Thing is, they appear noble, heck by all accounts the ARE noble. Them being zealots in the end doesn't make sense. It was so off putting that I just restarted the game. Problem is, looking forward to the "other endings" you basically do the same things.

Also, and people seem to forget this, this is the first game in which Bethesda has the major clans actually be part of the main storyline. So choosing a clan basically means choosing an ending, regardless of what your personal choice is. This isn't a problem per se, it can work. It just didn't with the way it's executed. At least not for me. The ending felt random and forced and took away everything I had played until that point. It's not the choice that bothered me, it's the nonsense of the choice that bothers me. The game makes it for me and it made no sense.

I agree with you on the flawed narration bit. I think that is probably my biggest take away and truly the most disappointing thing about Fallout 4. It all feels like it is working to be something epic, but it just falls a bit flat. I would still maintain that even though you blow up the Institute with the Railroad, it doesn't come off as insane, given that you sound the evacuation and just destroy the facility. I don't think the Railroad actually wants to have more synths created. They aren't actually synth-crazy; they just want the ones that do exist to be treated well and they want to stop the Institute from misusing this technology. So, as much as the parallel may kill some people, I think properly understood they are more Brotherhood than we might think at first glance.

We are defined by our enemies as much as we are by our friends, no? I think equating enemy with bad guy is fallacious. It all depends on who your enemies are that determine if being their enemy makes you a bad guy. Also, shades of grey seems to be a popular concept in the media these days (sorry couldn't resist) but I don't think we actually have shades of grey when it comes to morality. I think that colloquialism exists because it feels like we have shades of grey in the way things work out, but that's just because we have limited means and must compromise due to the inability to address everything.

For instance, let's say that, objectively for the case of this example, killing ants is a terrible crime, BUT we have to run water over the stretch of dirt where some ants live because we have to put out a fire that is threatening our food supply. So we run water over the ants to flood the fire and save our crops. This would be in many minds a case of a morally grey act, but I reject that notion. Sacrificing the ants remains wrong, but saving our food supply was necessary so that we might live. We can justify the action to ease our conscious, but the act remains wrong. Furthermore, binary examples such as this only measure outcome and not intent. Is it not better that we try and save our food AND the ants? Even if we have a greater risk of failure, it would seem to me that we have a moral imperative to assume the risk and try to do what is right, even if it means we fail. That may smack to some of blind idealism, but it seems to me it should be the modus operandi for any group of people that consider themselves good. We strive for the greatest outcome, even if it means we fail in the act.

Overall, I see arguments concerning morality to favor a Darwinists slant, but those tend to be naive and simplistic. Darwinism assumes survival as the highest virtue, but I would pose what point is there in preserving a people and culture that has no compassion and self-sacrifice to it? We laud tales of bravery and heroism, not cowardice and self-interest. This is getting a little too off topic i realize, but I feel like all we do is go over things topically and assert the same vapid opinions over and over. I don't see much to be gained by not engaging in more thoughtful and intelligent conversation, and I like to try and support my points with a proper mix of philosophy/science/common sense.

Bottom line: I don't think the word enemy is necessarily a way for the developers to label a group as "bad". It all depends on who is using the label.

I checked my tally, I've killed around 3,000 people and creatures in my current play through.

Played the 3-faction ending, so only the Institute ended up being dealt with, so its mostly Raiders, mutants and mercenaries who have felt my wrath.

Echoing Deacon's second best* piece of wisdom:

'watch what people do, not what they say' and the Institute has blood on its hands.

*(Deacon's best piece of wisdom is that '1234' is a good password... - actually the 8th most popular)

Let's think about the other endings for a second. Siding with either the BoS or the Institute also means that while you destroying a faction with innocent kids and civilians, the other faction you have to destroy is the RR, which are basically in a dozens, all of them are full grown advlts, who are in it knowingly and voluntary, so the know all about the risk. It's a casualty of war, but killing them does not compromise your morality since you're killing soldiers instead of civilians like with the BoS children or the Institute civilians. Also, I like to paste my previous response here to show you that the Institute are not all evil. Not even the people in charge are all evil. The heads may not even know what's going on. Dr. Li has no idea what was going on with Virgil and Father, Virgil ran away precisely because he can't take the guilt so he wants redemption, the FEV lab itself was heavily protected with locked door, assaultron and turrets. None of the data about FEV can be found in any other places, the other heads also not being aware of data contamination and data erasure by either Father and Liam. Basically, Father keeps a lot of things away from the heads. Many of the scientists don't know what's going on, they are just like workers, and all their life have been spent down underground and being taught how evil and terrible the surface is. People who are ok with the Institute being destroyed are basically condemning the entire country who has nothing to do with the government to death. Considering there are a large amount of scientists who are for synth rights and who are surface sympathizers who also do their part in trying to make the Institute into something for the better. You're basically murdering many innocent people and also destroying the future hope for the Commonwealth. I don't mind if people think it's a gray decision, but saying good ridden to all the Institute is basically just ignoring all crimes they committed by doing so. More over, you have a reason behind all the blood shred. You don't kill more than you save. At the end of the day, the BoS will keep the Commonwealth saved, they also use their technology for the civilians' benefits like with the water system they built back in Capital Wasteland. The Institute has the ability to create a better future for all human kind, and you can definitely steer them toward good. You won't be alone because there are many Institute people support the surface, some come from the surface, and some of the heads are pro-synths. If your goal is to help the synth, it's best to help the Institute because you can help improve the synths' life, and you don't also drive them into extinction if your goal is to help them. They see themselves as a species, Glory and Danse call the synths their people. Plus, the RR has no goal for the synths, releasing synths into the wild, especially brain washed one is basically just waiting for people to discover that they're synths, raising further paranoia about their loved ones being replaced, basically many of those synths may eventually be brutally murder or drive out of town.

Has everyone forgotten that Shaun is in the final stages of dying from an aggressive, terminal cancer?
This is obviously to cushion the concept that you will be destroying your 'child' along with the Institute facility.
Because it's end-of-the-line for him anyhow, one way or the other...

I had these thoughts too. I had one of my professors tell me once that most people are just trying to get by, and I think that is true. I think a lot of the scientists living in the Institute are just trying to get by and are grateful they don't have to live in the harshness of the Commonwealth. Some of them are sympathetic to your cause. Indeed, I think you can find people you like in every faction and people you wish would take a trip over a cliff. I also had the thought about synths being discovered for what they really are out in the Commonwealth or elsewhere. It would be more of a problem inside the Commonwealth, so I think that is why they are shuttling them outside of it. I think it bears to remember that for the most part, people can't tell who is and who isn't a synth. So the discovery only really becomes an issue post-mortem and I'm thinking you'd have to go... well "digging" for the parts. So it doesn't strike me as a major issue.

I also don't think synths see themselves as a new species, in the sense they want to spread and create more of themselves. I think synths share the common drive to want to just get by, like the rest of us. I know Glory says "we aren't human" but I think that was her way of saying she considers synths to be distinct from humans, but still persons. Likewise, I believe Danse was using the term as a generality to refer to all synths, which he found out he was part of. I would think that if synths cannot procreate naturally and had a drive to multiply, we would see them being a bit more upset with going after the Institute so aggressively by blowing it up, thereby ending their line. As I said before, I think the Railroad is more Brotherhood-esque in their aggression toward the Institute. It isn't just about saving synths.

Also, synths aren't brainwashed, for what it is worth. They can choose to be mind wiped, which honestly doesn't make sense to me unless you want to play up some PTSD angle, but the choice is ultimately theirs as far as the Railroad side goes. If they get caught by the Institute they are obviously immediately mind wiped. The ones that want to start fresh and just have a "normal" (or as close to normal as life in the wasteland goes) life are the ones that seem to opt for the procedure, going off of in-game conversations with Amari and Glory. I think the Railroad not having a goal for synths is actually the whole point too. They are free to be whoever they choose to be. That freedom is what the whole fight is about.