I suppose you could always put the earlier descriptions of Cyroddil down to: The author's romantic nature; trying to please a patron; only goes out of city during splendid sunrises/sunsets just after rain; myopia; youthful exuberance; imperially poetic licence; the big guy with the headsman's axe standing behind the author; changes in the city and the land over a period of hundreds of years due to increased poopulation cultivation; some other equally mundane and not so exciting excuse ...

I know that officially it is canon but i wish it wasn't. Mede is a horrible name for a new dynasty, destroying Vvardenfell and most of the Dunmer population is really lame, no mention of "Draedra worship becoming increasingly prevalent in the Summerset Isles", and Furthermore...

How did the empire fall apart in just forty years?
That is not a lot of time as far as empires go.

What about Chancellor Ocato and the elder council?
Wouldn't they have been able to hold at least Cyrodiil together? I mean Bravil at war with Leyawiin? That just seems silly.

I kinda figured it would end up different after the oblivion crisis. I figured that there would be a bit of chaos as regional kings tried to appoint themselves the next emperor and the elder council would attempt to convert the empire into a republic.

p.s. This love letter you are all going on about, would someone show me some proof that it is itself canon because its on a page that says "Unofficial lore documents gathered from forums" at the top

Since it was posted by MK it's considered cannon.

In the game "Oblivion", the Elder Council was too busy running for cover to help run the Empire. I think it's pretty significant that their council room was empty. Also, they wouldn't even think of creating a republic -- there's no tradition of republics in Tamriel. Only monarchy, tribalism, or anarchy.

thats 2 generations worth. there are empires that didn't last that long, and plenty which fell apart much faster.

One day I would love to see MK post something saying Bosmer are made of bacon or the like. Just to see the Lore forum wholeheartedly try to integrate it seriously into Elder Scrolls Lore just because it was MK that said it.

MK had a series of posts on immortal vampire jellyfish taking over the world because we ate too much turtle soup. no one took that as lore. believe it or not, we can distinguish something written in character as part of lore from something said for fun.

How can anything an EX-dev write be considered cannon sure he has advanced knowledge but he isn't part of the game anymore unless he is freelanced to write something for it. the only people that can say that something is cannon is todd or other bethesda employees if you think otherwise ask them and if they say its cannon its cannon and if not then its not cannon. I think that even todd himself once said that only things in the game are canon so how can MK's unofficial lore documents be considered canon? unless someone at bethesda says otherwise I will never consider the love letter or anything else similiar canon.

My thoughts exactly. I respect that MK created much of the Elder Scrolls Lore, but I find it silly that he can sit on the sidelines away from Bethesda, make the occasional post saying something either incomprehensible except by the most diehard TIL'ers or something utterly random, and have it taken as canon even when he has nothing to do with Bethesda anymore. If say, Todd left Bethesda and started posting his own stuff on the forum to get it taken as Lore, he would be completely ignored. Thats why I take stuff such as The Trial of Vivec as Fanon. It all comes down essentially to the Kult of Kirkbride and the utter insistence that MK is some sort of ES Lore God.

:shakehead:

here we go again
-MK wrote the loveletter...and then it came true omglol!!11eleven. This means bethesda considers it cannon and told the author to consider it cannon and incorporate it into the book. Other texts, like the Nu-Mantia Intercept, also play a part in the novel.
-MK wrote most of the lore in the universe. without him, we would still be in Tolkein/DnD rippoff land, for the most part.
-MK is a freelance writer contributing to the elderscrolls to this day. He wrote for Oblivion, he wrote for KotN, he is writing for TESV.
-80% of the things in the "noncanon" works MK makes is actually present in game.

I understand that some of his stuff is based off of stuff that can be determined in game but still I think ppl take his unofficial texts too far to consider it canon if anythign more like a well researched fan fic.

is it possible to ask bethesda softworks employees about the cannon of the unofficial texts?

a well researched fan fic by the original author.

his stuff is not based on the stuff in game, it IS the stuff in game. half the obscure texts are really just explanations on the sermons of vivec.

why would you need to ask bethesda, they use the "unofficial" texts in the very much official Infernal City?

thats what I'm saying its basicly explaining things that can be found in game. it doesn't make the texts official. the information may be official but the texts themselfs are not and so can not be considered cannon.

but the infernal city didn't mention a love letter so it might not even exist in the series. and the events of the ministry of truth wrecking into vivec was hinted at sinse morrowind. doesn't mean anything.

wait, youre saying the information in the texts is legit but the texts themselves are not? the information is what matters and the information has been verified thrice over.

the loveletter consists of two lore important things: predicting the landfall and explaining the 35th sermon. of course the letter doesnt exist in tamriel: its specifically stated to be a document to this world (earth). however, the important bits (Landfall, New North, etc.) are all in the book. Thats what what makes it cannon: MK said something, it came true.

Similarly, other texts (including Cosmology, Fall of Ald'ruhn, Many-Headed Talos, and the Nu-Mantia Intercept) are supported in Oblivion, its expansions, and the Infernal City.

I believe he also found a way to develop renewable fuel using said creatures.

exactly the documents are not lore as in they are just fan fictions. but the information is mostly true because it already existed in game. so the documents are not cannon but the lore mostly is. can't say the same for some of the unofficial documents that seem to have come out of nowhere.

an example of this in real life would be a movie based on true events the movie isn't real but the information in the movie about the events are mostly correct.

And yet did not MK say "this isnt the Landfall you are looking for?", suggesting that this is not what he himself wanted and this HIS landfall was going to be different?

It could have meant that...or it could have meant that your expectations are too high, and that what happened in Infernal City was his version of Landfall after all. Hence the canon version is "not the one you're looking for." Or not. I could see it either way.

There is still the Sermon that said should love for Vivec die off (and if we go Vivec = everything = love or w/e), the moon will come crashing and blow up all of Vivec, like Sheogorath intended the moon too do. Guess Sheogorath had some great aim too, as it caused Red Mountain to blow.

Or that it was the landfall we were lookng for, and he was trying to mindtrick us away from the truth.


Also, if the COC is Sheogorath, and the old Sheo's actions ultimately led to the ruin of Morrowind, does that mean that the hero of Oblivon basically [censored] all over everything that the hero of Morrowind worked for?

Adding to this, weren't there interviews with other developers saying that all in-character lore sources in or out of the game exist in Tamriel, and if two things conflict that just means one is wrong? That basically translates to all the obscure texts being official lore, whether or not the character speaking in them is right.


That statement is, I believe, left deliberately open to interpretation. It COULD mean that he was saying that while the moon fell, Landfall has not happened. It could mean he personally was not satisfied, however with the recent statements implying that the lore for quite a bit of the future has been mapped out for a long time, that seems doubtful because he would likely have had a hand in it. The interpretation I personally consider most likely is this: Landfall ocurred, and while some Dunmer moved on some have been buried as promised. However, some of the fan speculation was that the entire world would be more-or-less destroyed with the exception of Dunmer miners who were underground during the impact. THAT was the landfall that some people were looking for, which did not happen in favor of the landfall we got.

An interesting theory, perhaps in the 5th era there exists a subterranean civilisation of the descendants of egg miners, completely cut off from the Solstheim Dunmer and believing they are the only ones left. Maybe it would be a istake to assume that the writer of the loveletter knew everything that had happened.

I think New North is Solstheim. Some Dunmer just got so used to living underground that they only go there when they absolutely have to.

@ maz3ndor and redmer the wise nord/elf - I have expressed uncertainties and doubts about MK's stuff here and received an official warning for trolling :shrug: and my posts were basically asking what the position was. That sorta had the effect of convincing me to accept that MK is still there in the pipeline. It looks like MK has done a deal with Beth so that he can contribute on his own terms because that is how he is most productive and useful to the company. This does not mean that he is not part of the ongoing process of creation but just that he has a unique position that works for both parties. It's a tribute to how well regarded he is by gamesas actually - though it can be confusing for outsiders.

Todd may well have decided to change his position about in-game - who knows? You could always ask him how the Loveletters and such fit into his thinking but I am not sure that he would appreciate that

Turns-the-page
I love it - it feels right. Real Underground Lore that would be I wondered if the Kwama would ever develope a civilisation themselves.

No, the nerevarine was pretty much the catalyst of this happening