Master attributesskilll suggestion : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:41 am

Here is the base structure of the skill system I propose

There are three layers :

The attributes list
The skills list
And a actions list (not visible on the character sheet)

When playing, the gamers will try to accomplish actions (smashing their sword brutally, aguing politely with a noble, crafting complexe potions...).

The success of an action is dependant on a combinaison of skills and attributes. For the sword bashing, the blade skill may combine with STR if its a large sword or if its a power attack. But if its a glavius, the SPD may replace the STR. For potion making, Alchemy may be combined with other wizard schools skills depending on the properties aimed...

Which means that most attributes will be usable with a broader array of skills than in the present system and most skills will be linked with a more or less wide array of attributes instead of a single one.

Such system allows, with the same attribute list as the present system and a similar skill list, to produce a much wider array of combos reflected in the action list. A same skill will be playable with different styles and a same attribute may govern most characters actions. Diversity in a simple and streamlined form. It also means that you may product characters with a same skill list but with really different playing styles if they have different attributes sets.

The skill progression is computed based on the actions which use it. If two skills are combined for an action, each receive a half use point.

The attributes progression is computed also based on actions which use it. Anytime an action is based on a stat, this one receives one or a fraction (if more than one attribute is used) of use point. As the skills in the present system, they will require a use point threshold to be passed to progress.

So, this system intimately combine attributes with skills in every action, but there is no more strict, direct and automatic link between a single skill and an attribute. Up to the player to feel the best combo of actions to fit their attributes and skills.

To finish, progression in a skill and/or attribute may unlock new possible actions. Power attacks, for example, may be obtained for all weapon skills if STR passes 50%.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:28 am

Here is the base structure of the skill system I propose

There are three layers :

The attributes list
The skills list
And a actions list (not visible on the character sheet)

When playing, the gamers will try to accomplish actions (smashing their sword brutally, aguing politely with a noble, crafting complexe potions...).

Playing the devil's advocate here, so excuse my rather thorough criticism, but there are some questions that arise:

When you don't go into any specifics, you don't give any guarantee that the attributes will be evenly used. I'm just figuring that attributes like speed and personality would be underused and loose any effect, since they remain that low. You kind of leave that problem to the developers.
And if you do it yourself, you'll see that you'll automatically make categories yourself, without announcing them though ("I'll treat all these weapons the same, they are so similar"). My skill system does exactly that, though it announces them, so the player doesn't have to guess what attributes and skills are used, avoiding a lot of misunderstandings ("I thought this sword, with it's weight would also use endurance, now it seems it doesn't"). Rhekarid's skill system resolves this by making so many skills, that it's narrowed down enough, leaving even less room for doubts.

And when you let attributes or skills share the governing of an action, you'll inevitably get people wanting it different. (You left using a bow under agility, why didn't you add strength? It takes some power, you know. - And when you did that: why didn't you add intelligence? You need to calculate how the orb will be, with wind and all.)
While other systems have the same mechanics as yours, they are more "static", with clear conventions, while yours suggests infinite adjustability, making them less likely to just leave it with that.
You could say "Leave it to the modders to adjust it as they wish", but that beats the point of making a system.

I also doubt the occasional gamer will like this, meaning Beth won't either. Just imagine the panic when he doesn't find a clear, written report of what his skills and attributes do. I don't think he'll be satisfied with "Strength - It governs everything you need strength for." or "Destruction - The skill that governs all destructive spells or alchemy with destruction effects, but only partly as there is also an alchemy skill."

I know what you aimed for, but I honestly think it needs some second though.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:29 am

Playing the devil's advocate here, so excuse my rather thorough criticism, but there are some questions that arise:

When you don't go into any specifics, you don't give any guarantee that the attributes will be evenly used. I'm just figuring that attributes like speed and personality would be underused and loose any effect, since they remain that low. You kind of leave that problem to the developers.
And if you do it yourself, you'll see that you'll automatically make categories yourself, without announcing them though ("I'll treat all these weapons the same, they are so similar"). My skill system does exactly that, though it announces them, so the player doesn't have to guess what attributes and skills are used, avoiding a lot of misunderstandings ("I thought this sword, with it's weight would also use endurance, now it seems it doesn't"). Rhekarid's skill system resolves this by making so many skills, that it's narrowed down enough, leaving even less room for doubts.

And when you let attributes or skills share the governing of an action, you'll inevitably get people wanting it different. (You left using a bow under agility, why didn't you add strength? It takes some power, you know. - And when you did that: why didn't you add intelligence? You need to calculate how the orb will be, with wind and all.)
While other systems have the same mechanics as yours, they are more "static", with clear conventions, while yours suggests infinite adjustability, making them less likely to just leave it with that.
You could say "Leave it to the modders to adjust it as they wish", but that beats the point of making a system.

I also doubt the occasional gamer will like this, meaning Beth won't either. Just imagine the panic when he doesn't find a clear, written report of what his skills and attributes do. I don't think he'll be satisfied with "Strength - It governs everything you need strength for." or "Destruction - The skill that governs all destructive spells or alchemy with destruction effects, but only partly as there is also an alchemy skill."

I know what you aimed for, but I honestly think it needs some second though.

Off course, what I proposed need to go into detail to be sure that all attributes will cover an equal amount of actions, as will skills do. It is also a major work for the devs, but it is equally true for all the skill system proposed, to provide in game opportunities to do all those actions and to make them usefull.
The system I proposed is also static, for the list of ingame possible actions should be set, as well as the attributes and skill combos behind them. Simply, I think using a combo system with skills and stats without trying to put exactly the same number of skill with each stat and a single stat for a skill is more likelly to make sense.

I fully agree with the example you took with archery needing AG, STR and INT. But let say that a more agile character will be sure to have his arrow hiting the aimed zone, the strong one will do more damages and the intelligent one will have a more precise aiming reticle. The devs may allow a power attack, a fast shooting, as well as a precise aiming choice when using bows. The character will use his marksman skill, but he will emphasize different attributes.

I personnally like the idea of having to experience my character aptitudes and to assess what he may be able to do based on his knowledges and basic stats.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:54 pm

Off course, what I proposed needs to go into detail to be sure that all attributes will cover an equal amount of actions, as will skills do. It is also a major work for the devs, but it is equally true for all the skill system proposed, to provide in game opportunities to do all those actions and to make them usefull.
The system I proposed is also static, for the list of ingame possible actions should be set, as well as the attributes and skill combos behind them. Simply, I think using a combo system with skills and stats without trying to put exactly the same number of skill with each stat and a single stat for a skill is more likelly to make sense.

I fully agree with the example you took with archery needing AG, STR and INT. But let say that a more agile character will be sure to have his arrow hiting the aimed zone, the strong one will do more damages and the intelligent one will have a more precise aiming reticle. The devs may allow a power attack, a fast shooting, as well as a precise aiming choice when using bows. The character will use his marksman skill, but he will emphasize different attributes.

I personnally like the idea of having to experience my character aptitudes and to assess what he may be able to do based on his knowledges and basic stats.

Your system requires more work as for example my system (while having certain moves governed by two attributes), that has moves grouped together in categories.

And to go further on the marksman thing, you can pretty sure forget about that. They will also develop the game for console, which means a lot less buttons (though I can see them solve that by using combinations like the left paddles in combination with the attack button etc.), but foremost you remain with the problem of accessibility. How is the casual gamer to know and remember all these different options? He won't read the manual if it gets too big and probably forgets just about everything except for the attack button.
We're stuck with that idiot and in order to have a chance of implementations being made, it needs to be accessible for him too. (Personally I would love the vast variety too though)

I also can't add your system to the poll as it simply isn't a system. You just say "throw away the current system and make the game epically awesome by giving us innumerable options".

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:17 pm

Your system requires more work as for example my system (while having certain moves governed by two attributes), that has moves grouped together in categories.

And to go further on the marksman thing, you can pretty sure forget about that. They will also develop the game for console, which means a lot less buttons (though I can see them solve that by using combinations like the left paddles in combination with the attack button etc.), but foremost you remain with the problem of accessibility. How is the casual gamer to know and remember all these different options? He won't read the manual if it gets too big and probably forgets just about everything except for the attack button.
We're stuck with that idiot and in order to have a chance of implementations being made, it needs to be accessible for him too. (Personally I would love the vast variety too though)

I also can't add your system to the poll as it simply isn't a system. You just say "throw away the current system and make the game epically awesome by giving us innumerable options".

I think that CRPG have a big advantage over classical, PnP RPGs : The player don't have to check the rules. He just have to play his role. A CRPG should give the player a clear idea of who his character is and a streamlined interface to command his acts. But the rule system behind can be much more complexe and subtile than in a PnP RPG. In a system where the player computes his experience himself, his various bonuses, to assess his success thresholds when his character acts, needs simplicity not to turn newbies away. But in a CRPG you don't need that. A CRPG needs to tell the player : your character is strong but not too clever. He is skilled with blades but understand nothing to magic... It requires to tell the player that his character will progress if he uses a skill (it is quite obvious that most actions implying a sword will use the blades skill). But, again, the mechanics behind do not need symetry and simplicity.

Concerning the interface, it doesn't need much complexity to take a system like the one I propose. In dialogs, the player should choose a tone to speak to NPC (in a easy difficulty mode the player may be told which stats are used for each and even points the one his characters is most at ease). For marksmanship, a simple click may be considered as a fast shot. A long click as a power shot. And, as in Oblivion, zooming will activate the aimed shot. SImply, instead of testing a single skill to assess the success, the skill will be combined with a different stat (which are very under used in the present system) and the action will account for both marksman skill progression and the associated stat. Again, it is not that complicated, when presenting the different commands in the game book, to point the player that this or that type of attack or command is associated with this or that stat.

My idea is to present a simple character sheet to the player, as in the present system or yours. It is to give the player a wide array of actions to do, as in the present system (even if most of us find it too limited and too combat orientated). BUT, the idea is that those actions instead of being tested by the 20-30 skill values of the character will be so by combos of 2-3 (attributes) X 20-30 (skills), resulting in the character having not 20-30 threshold of success, but 40-90. It means that two warriors won't be the same. It means that choosing a same class with a different character origin won't simply result in one better/more focused character and one lesser/JOAT one, but in two really different archetypes. A bosmer warrior will use warrior skills but will have a really different style that a nord one, not simply an inferior one combined with other skills.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:44 am

I'm good with the system we have now, if only there are enough skills. Ones that don't directly affect your combat abilities, too! It's a friggin RPG, not a hack n slash.

1.2 Skills

1.2.1 Skill list

Weapon skills (7)

Long blade
Short blade
Blunt weapon
Axe
Polearm
Marksman
Shield

Magic schools (7)

Destruction
Restoration
Alteration
Illusion
Conjuration
Mysticism
Enchant (some would gladly replace this with Thaumaturgy, and I wouldn't mind)

Physical skills (7)

Hand-to-hand
Dual wielding
Athletics
Acrobatics
Dodge
Stealth
Horse riding

Know-how or mental skills (14)

Mercantile
Speechcraft
Deception
Pickpocket
Security
Medical
Alchemy
Herbalism
Armorer
Heavy armor
Light Armor
Critical Strike
Survival
Music

1.2.2. Description of skills

Weapon skills in general control your efficiency with each weapon. Mastering a weapon skill can also help you use a weapon from other groups as well. With higher Axe skill you get bonuses while you use blunt weapons that are similiar, like clubs. Higher Long Blade gives you bonus when you use short blades like wakizashis. And vice versa.
Your chance to hit an enemy is greatly affected by the weapon skill, but your AGI and the enemy's Dodge skill also play their part. You get a minor damage bonus with high enough skill, and that with a minor bonus from STR are the only things that improve the basic damage you deal. Damage per time unit is also affected by your skill and SPD since you can hit faster.
Depending on your stats, your chance to hit an enemy is somewhere in between 33 and 99%. Even the clumsiest and least experienced person lands every third hit, while the most agile weapon master can miss once per hundred strikes.

Note: Polearm used to be called Spear, now including all hafted weapons and staves.

Shield covers the usage of shields, while parrying with any weapon (or bare hands) is dependant on the weapon skill in question. Parrying is always part of the weapons training, you don't go to one trainer to learn how to hit with an axe, and then to other one to learn how to block with it. Shield is the most effective blocking device, and can be used for bashing too. Shields can even protect you from magic projectiles, while naturally they cover you from arrows and bolts quite well. You don't suffer any damage from succesful shield blocks, usually. Sure, a minotaur lord landing a huge warhammer on you might make your shield hand numb.

Magic skills in general control your efficiency with each spell. Use the same schools that were in TES3. Or, replace Enhant which was out of TES4 anyways, with Thaumaturgy.

Hand-to-hand determines your efficiency when you fight unarmed. The damage bonus from skill is much higher than in weapon skills.You ability to kick in doors is also dependant on the skill. Kicking during melee combat should be just as easy as it is in FEAR, even if it's a shooter. It worked. Kicking in Dark Messiah, though, was very overpowered thanks to level design and the unnatural strenght of kicks.

Dual wielding determines your efficiency when wielding two one-handed weapons. Several weapons in human history are ment for dual wielding, and the skill would make it easy for modders to add even more dual wielded weapons. (Tonfas, butterfly knives, scimitars, short sticks)

Athletics controls your fatique loss while running and swimming. Higher skill allows faster and longer spurts. Swimming is a subskill of Athletics, and you can't improve your swimming abilities much by running only.

Acrobatics determines the height and lenght of your leaps, as well as the damage you suffer when falling from great heights. Climbing is a subskill of Acrobatics, and you have hard time improving your climbing abilites by jumping only.

Dodge determines the chance of enemy weapon, arrow or spell missing you. It is checked every time, unless you are blocking, (that is, wielding a shield in hand, or holding the block key) or you are wearing too much heavy armor. Light armor doesn't prevent dodging, but gives you slight penalties. Projectiles are harder to dodge, while some spells are impossible to dodge.

Stealth, known as Sneak in previous two games, determines your chances to stay hidden and silent while stalking, or blending in a crowd of people without rising suspicion. If there are random encounter while fast traveling, this skill helps you evade enemies and their ambushes. Backstabbing is NOT covered by Stealth, but Critical Strike.

Horse riding skill determines what sort of horses you can mount, how they handle, their maximum running speed and jump abilites, and higher skill lowers the penalty for using melee and ranged weapons from horseback as well as casting spells. You also mount and unmount faster. In some circumstances you can be thrown off horse, if your skill check fails.

Mercantile and bartening as in Morrowind. The haggling system was far superior to anything in TES series before and after that. Only, haggling always too aggressively should have permanent effect on disposition.

Deception skill is checked every time you tell a lie to see if the NPC buys it. Seducing NPCs depends on ones disposition, PER and Deception skill. You should be always presented with options to lie in conversation if you're asked something. A good liar can accomplish a lot through dialogue only, but being caught from a lie repeatedly can be bad for your reputation. Even hiding your real personality is dependant on the Deception skill. Wear a hooded robe and know how to talk, act and walk differently and you can fool guards. If you're suspected of a crime, you should have options to lie (Deception), debate and persuade (Speechcraft) or bribe (Mercantile) in addition to fighting or surrendering.
In other RPGs, I find little use for lying, while in real life lying is done commonly.

Pickpocket! A skill hard to learn, and one that was pretty useless in TES2. But it's a DIFFERENT thing than sneaking around. Many pickpockets talk to their victims as they do it, or bump in them and apologize. Improve the earning possibilities, maybe by stealing keys, jewelry, stuff like that. A viable option to get hold of some quest items. Shoplifting from TES2 should make a comeback, governed by Pickpocket skill. Even during every conversation, you could check up the potential victim, and see the items he wears and the chances of succesfully snatching them. Purses are pretty easy, while it takes a master thief to steal rings and other jewels being worn by someone. But, people like that really exist.

Security covers picking locks and disarming traps. No player skill over character skill. Ability to kick in doors and prey open chests would give strong warriors ability to NOT learn Security without missing on loot. TES3 lockpicking system was ok, but should be spiced up a bit. Maybe you can make a lock stuck if you break a pick in there, and it has to be bashed open.

Medical skill determines your chance of identifying diseases and poisonings, your healing rate when you rest, and the use of all medical equipment like bandages, salves, potions and bloodstopping powders. Those you can use on yourself or NPCs. Basically, it's the skill of healing and restoring for those who don't have magic abilities. Playing a priest, druid, ranger or monk would become much more interesting.

Alchemy skill is checked when you identify ingredients like animal parts and venoms, powders, metals, jewels, and every non-organic alchemy ingredient. Basically alchemy and ingredients were most interesting in TES2. Your chance of sucesfully creating a potion as well as the time it takes is calculated by the skill. The potion strenght and duration is slightly affected by the skill, but also by the equipment you use, and INT.

Herbalism skill is checked when you identify plants, mushrooms and their effects. Some plants can be used in wound treatment as they are, some go also as alchemy ingredients. Poisonous ones can either be applied straight to the weapons, or brewed into harmful potions. Some plants have benefits on your mana, speed, or other attributes as you digest them or inhale their smoke. The skill also determines how succesful you are in harvesting the plants. There should be several different poisons, with remedies from varying herbs. Alchemy is sort of a magical thing used by wizards, and requires the right equipment. Alchemy effects are also more mystic. Herbalism is more natural, and can be used by rangers far from civilization, without any equipment, as well as some assassins to poison their victims. Common plants and mushrooms should only have healing, fortifying, restoring, curing or poisonous effects, while it takes mystical alchemy ingredients (like ectoplasm or vampire dust) for mystical effects, like reflecting spells, going invisible etc.

Armorer skill should be expanded a bit, and made much more realistic. No banging that bow of yours with a hammer anymore to make it good as new.

Critical Strike determines the chance of your succesful hit in combat being a critical strike, as well as the damage multiplier for succesful critical strikes. You automatically deal a critical strike when hitting an unaware enemy (backstabbing). Heavy armor on enemies gives some penalty to your chance of a succesful backstab.
Chance in combat about 0.1 - 5%, damage multiplier about 2 - 6, both according to skill. Now this skill is a perfect merge of TES2's Critical Strike AND Backstab skills. High skill also makes you more effective in combat even if you use a weapon you're not highly skilled in.

Survival could determine your speed and food consumption as you fast travel in wilderness or without using inns. Building a fire and shelter, fishing, and turning prey into edible food or trophies are part of the skill. Hunting and tracking in general could be merged into Survival. Trophies should be valuale enough to make hunting a viable option to earn a living, but finding (tracking down) and killing animals should be much harder. During winter a fire could be required if you rest outside.
There are tremendous possibilities, and no 1st person CRPG has yet gone as far in Survival as The Unreal World, a rogue like game from Finland. I'd love for TES5 to be the first. Survival elements would surely earn more (and more positive) publicity than Radiant AI and next gen graphics.

Music skill is checked when you try to use a musical instrument or sing to please a crowd or NPC, or to pacify a hostile animal or other beast. The most talented bards are paid well from an evening's entertainment. Lute, flute, harp and drums are the most common instruments. Quests to entertain nobles would be perfect change for all the killing, and might earn you precious fame among the nobles. Why not, for example, have a cover identity of a famous bard to gain acces to castles for committing assassinations?
The bard is an old class in TES series, but they've never known how to sing, play an instrument, or entertain a crowd. It would be about time.

Dual wielding, Horse riding, Deception, Herbalism, Survival and Music are the only skills that have never before been in the series. All the others have already earned their right to be in the skillset of TES5. I've kept the skill list very traditional, no renaming to Swords and Daggers, for example.

You need to have the ability to CHOOSE how to alter you attributes and skills, instead of a stupid bonus from a race.

2.2 Deriving Attributes

While the attributes of NPCs endorse the racial perks (orcs and nords being stronger usually, bretons and elves smarter) it's totally up to you what kind of character you're going to play. It's important to consider your starting attributes, since they are not going to be all maxed out in the end.You HAVE to sacrifice the same amount of points in one attribute to have another higher in the beginning. You CANT take 5 points here and there, and put them all in one Attribute.
The starting attributes are 40 +/- 20, which means you can start with all of them in 40, or move 5, 10, 15 or 20 points between any two attributes. The minimum would then be 20, while maximum would be 60. This encourages you to improve attributes that are important to the class and sacrifice the others. Of course, having them all equal at start and rising the right ones during game is also a good way to do it.

2.3 Choosing Skills

Ten Primary skills count towards your leveling and are easiest to raise. They start at 35, and there's +/-10 points to move around, just like with Attributes. It might take years game time to become the Master in one skill, even a Primary one. After 90 the skill advancing should become radically slower.

Ten Secondary ones are slightly harder to raise, and they start at 20 +/-5. They don't count to leveling, but can still be very important to your class.

The rest fifteen skills are Miscellaneous, they start at 5, and are even harder to raise. Still, with hard work and good tutors you might become very efficient with some of them, if you find it important to you.

You can drag and drop your skills in any order you want. You can also copy skill list from existing class and make adjustments for your custom class.

Many people have suggested different skill caps, like Primary max at 100, secondary max at 75 and so on. That's just wrong in my opinion. The skills should just be so hard to raise that you would focus on your Primary skills, which could be also called 'playing your character'.
Oblivion makes no sense without a mod that makes skills raise 3-5 times slower. Without one, your character ends up being the master of everything, even if you don't focus on training.

And finally, yout Attributes need to have some sort of an effect. Like, stronger guy making more damage with hammers, and faster guy moving his dagger faster.

Strength (STR) Determines the damage bonus (or penalty) you get with heavy melee weapons like Axes and maces, as well as how much you can carry. You will have trouble pulling the strongest bows if you're STR is low. Being stronger than an NPC helps you intimidate him. Forcing doors and locks open is dependant on your STR.

Intelligence (INT) Determines your maximum Spell Points (SP). Being smarter than an NPC helps you fool and trick them. New dialogue options are opened for smarter characters.

Willpower (WIL) Helps to determine your rate of Magicka consumption from spellcasting and your chance to resist Magicka. Your skill in magic school in question also effects the amount of SP used per spell. High WIL really helps you resist magic, like in old days.

Agility (AGI) Determines the 'hit bonus' in combat, as well as your 'dodge bonus'. Determines the damage bonus (or penalty) you get with light melee weapons like Daggers.

Endurance (END) Determines your Hitpoints (HP) at all times. You have always one hundred plus Endurance in hitpoints. It also determines your resistance to poisons and diseases, and the chance of, and time taken for, recovering from them naturally.

Speed (SPD) Controls your movement speed, the speed you swing a weapon in combat, and the speed you complete certain tasks, like reload crossbows.

Personality (PER) Controls how much people like you when they first see you, and the prices you get at vendors. PER determines the ease of admiring and seducing NPCs. New dialogue options are available for stunning personalities.

Luck (LUC) Effects every action you do in a small way. Also a luckier character might find more precious loot, or survive an incident that could have killed others. Unlucky character has harder time finding or earning goods. Luck could also effect your chances of Critical Strike. It worked well in Fallout 3 I think, and would make Luck a bit more useful compared to other attributes.

Note: Your Fatique is calculated from STR, END and WIL. The amount of damage you can deal in melee (per time unit) is affected by STR, AGI and SPD.

This is extremely traditional compared to the systems you propose. Mainly because I think Bethesda is going to keep it traditional no matter what!

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:19 am

I'm good with the system we have now, if only there are enough skills. Ones that don't directly affect your combat abilities, too! It's a friggin RPG, not a hack n slash.

You need to have the ability to CHOOSE how to alter you attributes and skills, instead of a stupid bonus from a race.

And finally, yout Attributes need to have some sort of an effect. Like, stronger guy making more damage with hammers, and faster guy moving his dagger faster.

This is extremely traditional compared to the systems you propose. Mainly because I think Bethesda is going to keep it traditional no matter what!

In general, I feel like your suggestion just isn't quite good enough. You say it's traditional and you might be right. But I think Beth won't go BACK as much as this traditional system does. They want to sell and this might be too RP to achieve that. So just like the last idea proposed, it's good, but misses on possibility to be implemented.
I'll do some nitpicking to prove my point.

You begin with saying how Oblivion was too hack'n'slash, but once you get to your attributes, you practically only say which combat aspects they govern, forgetting about most of the rest. Now you either tell with each skill or move what they are governed by, which is frankly only possible in the former case and would immediately rid this system of it's main good point (namely that it doesn't pin everything down in a grid, but keeps it understandable) OR you make sure your description of what your attribute governs actually covers all situations, in which case you'd have a way too long text per attribute that would be too complicated for the "casual gamer" and make him cry because he can't remember it (in turn making Bethesda sad about the money they missed).

You also give the example that when you have a good long sword skill, you would also be good with short (or shorter) swords to some degree. While this is logical, it won't work in your current system. Take that you would both use long and short swords, which can happen, and you get quite good at both: now using a short sword for instance will give you the skill bonus of the short sword skill, but also the extra of the long sword, making it unrealistically and unfairly strong (if you are good at it, what is the extra bonus for?). Now if you weaken everything down to counter this, you'll make it underpowered for people actually sticking to one type. Granted, they will have used that skill more, but you don't give them the bonus that comes quite "gratuite" for the other one, sorta punishing him for being "good enough".
You could make using a long sword actually increase the short sword skill a tiny bit as well, but then you are going for another system.

There are some skills that wouldn't work in a traditional system (in a traditional game), like the music, critical strike, herbalism or splitting of security. Rhekarid's system can have all of them and more, but that is because he assumes the game will have vastly expanded features, in which case all systems but his could really tame that beast of a game.
Seriously, how often do you intent to lie in your game? Sure, they could add tons of situations, but they will feel forcefully rammed into the game, as they would be just that.

And then there are your less traditional suggestions, which I don't think will happen. Firslty, the skill will not be called "Stealth", for the same reason there will not be skills like "Combat" or "Magic". Secondly, the races will keep their bonuses, as that's what the casual gamer expects (too bad actually, as I really liked that idea). And the survival skill won't give the attention you think. Graphics are way more loved these days. "A game that feels like reality" won't even sell half as much as "A game that looks like reality". And the idea of food consumption being needed (you mentioned it in fast travel context) isn't popular with the wide audience either.

Sorry for the long and negative post, I wish I could just say that it's fantastic and point out all the goodies (which I still tried left and right).

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:52 pm

1. You say it's traditional and you might be right. But I think Beth won't go BACK as much as this traditional system does. They want to sell and this might be too RP to achieve that.

2. You also give the example that when you have a good long sword skill, you would also be good with short (or shorter) swords to some degree. While this is logical, it won't work in your current system.
You could make using a long sword actually increase the short sword skill a tiny bit as well, but then you are going for another system.

3. There are some skills that wouldn't work in a traditional system (in a traditional game), like the music, critical strike, herbalism or splitting of security.

4. Seriously, how often do you intent to lie in your game? Sure, they could add tons of situations, but they will feel forcefully rammed into the game, as they would be just that.

5. Firslty, the skill will not be called "Stealth", for the same reason there will not be skills like "Combat" or "Magic".

6. Secondly, the races will keep their bonuses

7. And the survival skill won't give the attention you think. Graphics are way more loved these days.

8. And the idea of food consumption being needed (you mentioned it in fast travel context) isn't popular with the wide audience either.

9. Sorry for the long and negative post

1. Fallout 3 gave great respect to earlier games which were loved by everyone. Why couldn't they give respect to TES2-3 with TES5? Seems that true RPGs today only come from Europe. I'd like to see decent RPG from US too.

2. I havent given thought on HOW it would work, only that it makes sense, as you agreed

It's their job to figure it out.

3. Critical Strike worked in TES2 and Battlespire, and it would have worked in TES3 too. Those power attacks from TES4 took away from the character and gave to the player. Not good imo. Music is something that's logical to have, but many would consider it useless. It would work exactly like any other skill. Herbalism would also work, but I know people don't like splitting skills. That's why I left out Jumping, Swimming, and Etiquette/Streetwise. I just feel like Herbalism is needed for decent Strider-type characters. Security was not split.

4. I would lie if I could. In Gothic 3, an orc guard approached me and asked about some stolen stuff... I lied I was nowhere around, and he bought it. Something I've never been able to do in TES series: the guards just know. Even better to have lying as a way to move on in quests.

5. "Stealth" was exactly like it was typed in TES2, and Battlespire iirc. Makes more sense than Sneak, since sneaking about only draws attention.

6. TES3 was the first game where race gave an attribute bonus, I think. Not everyone wants to play a strong Nord, agile Wood Elf or a smart Breton all the time. I know I don't.

7. I know that, but Climate Survival was a skill in Daggerfall manual. Was cut before release, but makes sense to deepen the RP aspects by bringing it back. I know from experience that it truly deepens it. And I also know that the Devs wont propable give a [censored].

8.

3.8.1. Toggle Realism options

Since there are several things about game realism that irks the casual gamers, let's make some of them togglable in the options menu. Here's what I've been thinking:

Options menu -> Realism

Toggle on/off :
Hunger effects
Thirst effects
Environment effects (if Skyrim, freezing to death)
Left handed character
Bleeding
Crippling

Move slider for:
Hours of sleep per day required
0-10

Damage multiplier on the player character/allies:
0.5 - 2 x

Damage multiplier on the enemies
0.5 - 2 x

Toggle on/off:
Lock the options for this character

Damage multipliers are not only the improved version of difficulty level, but also let you have more or less brutal melee according to your liking. Bleeding and crippling are almost like in Fallout 3. You just need to use Medical skill to splinter your bones or bandages to treat the wounds. Or according spells. I'd like to see more complex Restoration spells than ones just recovering HP. Mending bones, stoppping blood, that kind of thing. Blood stopping powder could be made by alchemists, too.
Locking the options prevents you from abusing them in a tough spot.

The modders have made realistic eating/drinking/sleeping mods for both TES3 and 4. I think it's time for game developers to do it, instead of leaving it to modders.

9. Np. Not my every suggestion is thought completely through. There's so many of them...

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:47 am

First off, I knew the hard core guys would eventually start posting again when they say this. Its good to see you again Sycandre and you too Absinthe( even though you never left).

Here is the base structure of the skill system I propose

There are three layers :

The attributes list
The skills list
And a actions list (not visible on the character sheet)

When playing, the gamers will try to accomplish actions (smashing their sword brutally, aguing politely with a noble, crafting complexe potions...).

The success of an action is dependant on a combinaison of skills and attributes. For the sword bashing, the blade skill may combine with STR if its a large sword or if its a power attack. But if its a glavius, the SPD may replace the STR. For potion making, Alchemy may be combined with other wizard schools skills depending on the properties aimed...

Which means that most attributes will be usable with a broader array of skills than in the present system and most skills will be linked with a more or less wide array of attributes instead of a single one.

Such system allows, with the same attribute list as the present system and a similar skill list, to produce a much wider array of combos reflected in the action list. A same skill will be playable with different styles and a same attribute may govern most characters actions. Diversity in a simple and streamlined form. It also means that you may product characters with a same skill list but with really different playing styles if they have different attributes sets.

The skill progression is computed based on the actions which use it. If two skills are combined for an action, each receive a half use point.

The attributes progression is computed also based on actions which use it. Anytime an action is based on a stat, this one receives one or a fraction (if more than one attribute is used) of use point. As the skills in the present system, they will require a use point threshold to be passed to progress.

So, this system intimately combine attributes with skills in every action, but there is no more strict, direct and automatic link between a single skill and an attribute. Up to the player to feel the best combo of actions to fit their attributes and skills.

To finish, progression in a skill and/or attribute may unlock new possible actions. Power attacks, for example, may be obtained for all weapon skills if STR passes 50%.

I think this is a good idea and it's been repeated in different ways. here are some ways to consider-

For one people look at sub skills like Rhekarid-- it says every skill has three sub-skills and two attributes. This is why I lean So hardly on Rhekarid's skill because I agree with you- because Rhekarid's skill cover almost every action and also with a proficiencies because not only do each skill have their own two attribues but each one of their sub-skill has two of their own two attribute-- this can vastly expand the way you get these proficiencies(or more likely when you can train them).

Second I came up with sort of a long term role playing aspect to this-- since a TES PC has a lot more to do and there for a longer life span-- certain attributes will gain over time because of race.
As in an Orc with his axe at 50 will progress 2x as he normally would until he hits 75 (FYI he learns faster because of his heratage and his genitics). This will happen for every race--at different points in skill progression, each race will do this for different skills. It may also happen twice in one skill. There also a slight variation in this for male and female.

I think that CRPG have a big advantage over classical, PnP RPGs : The player don't have to check the rules. He just have to play his role. A CRPG should give the player a clear idea of who his character is and a streamlined interface to command his acts. But the rule system behind can be much more complexe and subtile than in a PnP RPG. In a system where the player computes his experience himself, his various bonuses, to assess his success thresholds when his character acts, needs simplicity not to turn newbies away. But in a CRPG you don't need that. A CRPG needs to tell the player : your character is strong but not too clever. He is skilled with blades but understand nothing to magic... It requires to tell the player that his character will progress if he uses a skill (it is quite obvious that most actions implying a sword will use the blades skill). But, again, the mechanics behind do not need symetry and simplicity.

Concerning the interface, it doesn't need much complexity to take a system like the one I propose. In dialogs, the player should choose a tone to speak to NPC (in a easy difficulty mode the player may be told which stats are used for each and even points the one his characters is most at ease). For marksmanship, a simple click may be considered as a fast shot. A long click as a power shot. And, as in Oblivion, zooming will activate the aimed shot. SImply, instead of testing a single skill to assess the success, the skill will be combined with a different stat (which are very under used in the present system) and the action will account for both marksman skill progression and the associated stat. Again, it is not that complicated, when presenting the different commands in the game book, to point the player that this or that type of attack or command is associated with this or that stat.

My idea is to present a simple character sheet to the player, as in the present system or yours. It is to give the player a wide array of actions to do, as in the present system (even if most of us find it too limited and too combat orientated). BUT, the idea is that those actions instead of being tested by the 20-30 skill values of the character will be so by combos of 2-3 (attributes) X 20-30 (skills), resulting in the character having not 20-30 threshold of success, but 40-90. It means that two warriors won't be the same. It means that choosing a same class with a different character origin won't simply result in one better/more focused character and one lesser/JOAT one, but in two really different archetypes. A bosmer warrior will use warrior skills but will have a really different style that a nord one, not simply an inferior one combined with other skills.

I was thinking the same thing, and this again why I like the Idea of sub skills and lots of them. Also it is important that alot of actions that are computed into skills can be broad and subtle. But also with SLOWER character progression you're going to need those subtle things because your going to do it a lot- and in real-time.

When I say broad and subtle I mean taking the skill list as the character sheet-- and making alot of skills so that you really do what in your character sheet as well as you can do those things--Since it is a slower progression and so many skill have so much to do with what you're doing, then you naturally start with higher stats. Subtle meaning that skills can be combined in a single action more easly.

--for instance this is a huge revolution for doing complex quest- - as in if given a quest to kill someone with in a building you have options on how to do it-- you need avoid combat so you can climb up to his floor sneak in a window and kill him with your knife- takes like 4-5 skill each being checked when do it-

So in hindsight each path you take and how you take it is based on what skills you want to take a chance and how you do them and more importantly its all in the same game-- there is no climbing minigame-- no sneak minigame-- its all realtime.

But These are just ideas-- Sycandre look at these and establish some fundamentals of what we're talking about-- it would be clearer if you help elaborate. And lastly lets look at aome things we can all agree on like

-- multiple attributes per skill
-- Slower more thoughtful skill progression
-- deeper PC builds (advantages/disadvantages for sure)(don't think we've come to a consensus on subskills, races going through faster skill at certain times, proficiencies)
-- Varying PC build based on more architypes rather than just trying to reach perfection in either-magic, stealth, or combat. (which by the way iswhy I support new avnes like Knowledge and survival out Rhekarid's skill list)

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:41 am

1. Fallout 3 gave great respect to earlier games which were loved by everyone. Why couldn't they give respect to TES2-3 with TES5? Seems that true RPGs today only come from Europe. I'd like to see decent RPG from US too.

2. I havent given thought on HOW it would work, only that it makes sense, as you agreed

It's their job to figure it out.

3. Critical Strike worked in TES2 and Battlespire, and it would have worked in TES3 too. Those power attacks from TES4 took away from the character and gave to the player. Not good imo. Music is something that's logical to have, but many would consider it useless. It would work exactly like any other skill. Herbalism would also work, but I know people don't like splitting skills. That's why I left out Jumping, Swimming, and Etiquette/Streetwise. I just feel like Herbalism is needed for decent Strider-type characters. Security was not split.

4. I would lie if I could. In Gothic 3, an orc guard approached me and asked about some stolen stuff... I lied I was nowhere around, and he bought it. Something I've never been able to do in TES series: the guards just know. Even better to have lying as a way to move on in quests.

5. "Stealth" was exactly like it was typed in TES2, and Battlespire iirc. Makes more sense than Sneak, since sneaking about only draws attention.

6. TES3 was the first game where race gave an attribute bonus, I think. Not everyone wants to play a strong Nord, agile Wood Elf or a smart Breton all the time. I know I don't.

7. I know that, but Climate Survival was a skill in Daggerfall manual. Was cut before release, but makes sense to deepen the RP aspects by bringing it back. I know from experience that it truly deepens it. And I also know that the Devs wont propable give a [censored].

8.

9. Np. Not my every suggestion is thought completely through. There's so many of them...

I agree that they should give a little credit to the old TES games, they probably will, but as we all know, it will be in their own way. I do hope they get hit by the sensibility hammer, it's needed.
Actually, we try to do the largest thinking ourselves here with the system proposals. As I said, only complete systems will be allowed to the poll, but I figured that probably wasn't your intention anyway.
I never got my power attacks to work in OB and didn't feel like I missed out on something. I wouldn't mind more smaller skills personally, but I feel like they might as well be left over to the system as random factors who increase based on an attribute or skill (basically what the skill would be, only then without it being announced to the player). Herbalism is a bit hard to implement in a way it pleases everyone, so I won't go into that. And you actually did split up security, or at least from OB, in security and pickpocket, which are quite narrow little skills, who'd govern quite isolated situations, imo.
Lying is the same as the critical strike, to me. It's better left to an invisible attribute and skill check than a skill of its own. I'd love the option to lie though, it's a must tbh.
I think I gave the reason why it was renamed after TES2, but it's a futility really. They can name it what they want, as long as they fix it.
I have partly been convinced. I think it should be like this: you pick your race and get their custom race setting of, let's say an orc, with Akhenaten's suggestion of faster rising attributes because of genes, but then there is an "advanced settings" button.
This way, little fat Timmy won't begin to cry because of the many options, and we can have our fun. The advanced settings would include your suggestion of redividing the attributes set-off, adding of a background (I have no idea what it actually did in TES 2) and adjustment of Akhenaten's attribute rising bonusses (as otherwise, you'd end up being a strong orc nevertheless, simply because it rises easier - and it could always be that you are the whussy orc who for some reason never got strong.)
If you all agree, I might add it to the wiki under character creation, as I think it would be a good solution.
The problem with hunger mods is that they only work with a slower game speed. And Beth won't slow it down, because the casual gamer wants day and night to get a move on and "change, god damnit!", so it will remain for the modders. Someone did make a good suggestion lately though, opting that sleeping and eating should actually give a temporary boost (of a few game hours), so the role player can do it all the time, and the casual gamer can resort to it when he thinks he'll need the extra strength. (Well, I think that is what the guy suggested, otherwise I suggest it). Would this work as a substitute in your eyes?
The problem with the options, is that it may require two separately balanced systems. I doubt Beth will do all the work and then say "you don't really have to", and it would also take away time from other things.
I think flesh wounds and so should be added, as well as the climate thing (just like it was in that "Tears of the Saviour" quest in OB, though maybe a bit less extreme, when crossing greater distances - and affectible by your cold resistance). And your separate sliders for your damage and the enemy's are a must, that always bugged me.

Tell me what you think.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:04 pm

I think that parallely with our reflexions about skills lists and ties with attributes, we should emphasize that ingame actions and questlines should not all be combat orientated.
That there should be much more things to do than combat. That some challenges lie in intrigues, social relations, exploration and that those challenges require various action types and skills to be tested. DF had a wider skill list than MW and Oblivion, but sadly, alot of them were under used or unused at all. Beth choosed to remove them in MW instead of working on the gameplay to give them life and utility. Not only we should ask for knowledge based or social skills next to combat ones, but we should say that there are many ways to test them ingame, to tie them to quests success and storyline progression.

Ghe, you said that a lying skill should not be that usefull, but if dialogs became challenging at last, with various pathes, with tones, with many topics and ways to handle them, a variety of social skills should be really usefull to depict different role playing styles. Lying should be one of them. As combat deserves alot of attention, offering berseker type style to vicious assassin one, passing by the firethrower option, social and knowledge in the game should become places of gameplay challenge and require game mechanics adapted to them.

The present single speechcraft skill is as much insatisfying to me as a single combat, magic or stealth skill would be for action gamers.

I think we should stand to ask TES 5 to become a better RPG, instead of hoping the devs to hide a few RPGish structures hidden behind an action game mechanic.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:04 pm

The problem with hunger mods is that they only work with a slower game speed. And Beth won't slow it down, because the casual gamer wants day and night to get a move on and "change, god damnit!", so it will remain for the modders. Someone did make a good suggestion lately though, opting that sleeping and eating should actually give a temporary boost (of a few game hours), so the role player can do it all the time, and the casual gamer can resort to it when he thinks he'll need the extra strength. (Well, I think that is what the guy suggested, otherwise I suggest it). Would this work as a substitute in your eyes?
Tell me what you think.

There were two different suggestions about thirst/hunger/sleep effects: one was to use them as "fortification potions" or "healing potions" as in FO3, the other was to use them to enable or increase gradual natural healing, fatigue regen, and magicka regen over relatively long time periods (half a game day or more). I favor the second, because its status would be noticable enough to allow RP, yet not "vital" enough to burden a "hack&slash" player.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 am

The problem with hunger mods is that they only work with a slower game speed. And Beth won't slow it down, because the casual gamer wants day and night to get a move on and "change, god damnit!", so it will remain for the modders. Someone did make a good suggestion lately though, opting that sleeping and eating should actually give a temporary boost (of a few game hours), so the role player can do it all the time, and the casual gamer can resort to it when he thinks he'll need the extra strength. (Well, I think that is what the guy suggested, otherwise I suggest it). Would this work as a substitute in your eyes?

I doubt that the speed of the day/night cycle can be laid at the feet of causal players, if for no other reason than that the game does have a 'wait' button. More likely, the cycle is made to match the scale of the game world, so that it would take something resembling a realistic amount of in-game time to travel from one point to another. If they make the game world bigger, they may very well make the day/night cycle longer

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:13 pm

There were two different suggestions about thirst/hunger/sleep effects: one was to use them as "fortification potions" or "healing potions" as in FO3, the other was to use them to enable or increase gradual natural healing, fatigue regen, and magicka regen over relatively long time periods (half a game day or more). I favor the second, because its status would be noticable enough to allow RP, yet not "vital" enough to burden a "hack&slash" player.

Don't mean to get off topic but long term and short term fatigue should be part of general PC funtion. So here is my interpretation of how hunger and day night would work( keep in mind I have no plans to put in long term body changes based on diet.)

long term Fatigue and a more short term fatigue are a flexible fundamental-

-- so this long term fatigue is healed by sleep but that healing by sleep relies completly on food, so I can eat a steak and walk away with +10 long term then I can go to sleep for 6hrs and get +40 even after potions. Eat no food the next day.. go to sleep for 6hrs.. still plus +15. And two nights later I get +5. depending if its food or drink the equation is different-- as in food when eaten is y then it's (yx4) day one and (y(y/2+y) and for the third and final night its(y/2) all per six hours after six I will get more at a rate rather than a set amount after a set amount of time.. That Sounds complicated but once you get thrown int the wild with no fast travel in an unpredictable and challenging game world you pick it up things in order to survive.

side note: depending on the quality of your bed the process will speed up or slow down- so If you in a king size sweet in a safe place with no interuptions you will get you effects in 3-4 hours or if you're in the ally way it might take 8hrs with a much larger chance of being awaken at random.(hinting at camping)

--short term fatigue(for lack of a better name) is the like oblivion fatigue that draws on your Long Term fatigue to replenish and does so at rate based on Endurance. Effects of food and drink have a larger varity on the sort term fatigue than It does the long term.

short term does is relied to do every day actions like run, attack etc.. but back on topic short term fatigue helps fight infection and heal wounds. The difference between wounds and infection is that wounds impede your physical movement while infection and diesese attack your long term fatigue and possibly your physical movement to. So you need to actually ward off this illness your self via potion, eating and sleeping, spell, or healer.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:43 pm

I'm not sure how to do this but I wanted to suggest ideas for some stuff I dont think has been considered yet.

I think there should be some kind of Beast Master ability that lets you tame wild animals to become your pet/companions.The higher you go in level the bigger and badder the animal you can tame.From rats to (maybe?)dragons or something.

Also,the magical ability to Shape Shift would be really cool.You could turn into monsters or animals for a time so if you were weak youd gain some power or skill or something by turning into a bear or demon.You could also use it for transportation(turn into a deer or horse for speed) or a disguise to sneak into or slip away from stuff.

I'm sorry if i'm doing this wrong.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:17 am

whats going on with the wiki GHE?

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:49 pm

A bit drowning in the work atm.
I'm currently working on the factions, though it will take a while. If you want to help with anything, just drop me a PM.

As for this thread:
Will this be all the suggestions?
I think I have four candidates:
- mine: the trinity skill system
- Mirander's: the minimal adjustment system
- Rhekarid's: the ?ber system

Some words:
Mirander, please give me your definite decision on whether you will replace enchanting with taumaturgy or not.
Kovacius, answer my post in the first post of page 2 (post #21) and post your system in full. I want to include it, but I first need to see it worked out.
Sycandre, I hope you understand I won't include yours. It's a decent suggestion, but it's not in compliance with the requirements I mentioned in the opening post.
Daniel_Kay, if you want your system to have a chance of being included in the poll, post it. Then I will see if it fits the requirements. (Also make sure the system is completely explained.)

The reason I want every system written down is that I'll need to link to something when I create the poll, (and in Dan_K's case, your website won't do, as the system isn't collected on one page there, I believe.)

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:55 am

So whats your goal with this so called suggestions wiki?

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:03 pm

So whats your goal with this so called suggestions wiki?

Don't overwork yourself and bother actually looking for that information. I wrote that main page that I linked to in my signature just for the heck of it.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:13 am

For those wanting to include enchant -

It's not really a skill that would get used often so why not have a catch-all manipulate skill that would cover both enchantment and alchemy? They both invole using found elements to make something new after all.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:42 am

Don't overwork yourself and bother actually looking for that information. I wrote that main page that I linked to in my signature just for the heck of it.

What do you mean? I just asked the purpose of the wiki?

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:38 am

For those wanting to include enchant -

It's not really a skill that would get used often so why not have a catch-all manipulate skill that would cover both enchantment and alchemy? They both invole using found elements to make something new after all.

Alchemy and enchanting don't really fit together. The former uses the magical characteristics of elements harvested in the world, while the other binds a soul from the 'other side' to an object. That's a big enough difference to be lynched for by the community.
I'm for grouping together enchanting and spell making, along with some others (absorb/reflect spell etc.), who work to direct and bind the magic flow. Of course that wouldn't work without the addition of some new spells to fill it up, as well as give Mysticism some more spells, as I took the aforementioned spells away from that school.

What do you mean? I just asked the purpose of the wiki?

I mean:
Click the big underlined phrase that shows up below every single of my posts. Then bother to actually read far enough until you read the word "Contents" and find there is a chapter titled "What we aim to achieve".
You'll marvel about how everything you ever wanted to know actually already lies at your feet.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:06 am

I just have some general skill-related suggestions that someone may want to include in their overhaul idea:
1. Repair - Instead of buying hammers, you should be able to use armor/weapons that you pick up to conduct repairs (similar to FO3's system). This makes much more sense than simply beating on your equipment until it magically looks like new.
2. Spells (all) - Combo effects should be introduced. Some combos will make your spell useless and some will make them more powerful. A useless spell would be a Fire Damage + Frost Damage spell as the two would combine and create a water effect that does no damage (or maybe distracts the foe). A powerful spell would be a Water Breathing + Feather spell (Bouancy, anyone?) which would cause your character to swim really fast. These combos should not be made known (or at least not all of them) giving players an incentive to experiment.
3. Targeting Perk - With any ranged skill, a perk should be available that allows you to lock on to targets for a 100% hit rate. Nothing is more annoying than having your high-cost ranged spells miss because they travel so slow. Ranged spells and bows are only currently effective at very far range (before you are detected) or very close range (where a touch spell would work better). This is a huge problem as the middle range is left completely open. Also, some spells shouldn't actually have to travel, such as any kind of shutdown/mental/interference spell. You should be able to select your target and cast it without actually having to hit them.
4. Skill Perks - Copy the Fallout system for perks. The Oblivion system was stupid. The perks themselves weren't bad, but the way you got them made most of them obsolete quickly.

» Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:52 am

stab em in da face