Master Spells are so Laughable : V - Skyrim

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:40 pm

The master spells are underwhelming. The lack of destructions total lack of any real offense without impact is disappointing. It's a shame we have to count on one perk to make destruction useful. It's also easier to use fire bolt and ice spike over the highest level spells, which is just bad game design.

You don't know how to use the master spells properly then. Look in the link in my above post, you will see the potential of the master spells.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:18 am

You don't know how to use the master spells properly then. Look in the link in my above post, you will see the potential of the master spells.

So we have anecdotal evidence in favor of the numbers displayed, and anecdotal evidence contrary to both the existing evidence, as well as the displayed numbers.

Which am I going to believe?

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:49 am

So we have anecdotal evidence in favor of the numbers displayed, and anecdotal evidence contrary to both the existing evidence, as well as the displayed numbers.

Which am I going to believe?

Well as a Thalmor agent looking at your sig I say burn you heretical miscreant :stare:

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:08 pm

I think the issue in this game is that melee is too strong, not that magic is too weak.

That being said though, I like the master level spells. In case you didn't know, Fire Storm does more damage to enemies closest to you and less to those far away. With Fire Storm just yesterday I cleared out a mob of high-level bandits (marauders I think) in one Fire Storm spell. I also play on adept (aka "normal" difficulty) so that might factor into it. But I also have both Augmented Flames perks and the Master perk to reduce cost to 1/2.

But I also use other spells besides destruction. For example, I'll use a Mass Paralysis before using Fire Storm, so I can cast it without problems.

Nice Marmot, definitely hear you, especially on Ice Storm. Dual-casted Ice Storm with all the perks will take dow ANYTHING, even frost resistant foes. I've 1-shotted draugrs and nords with dual-casted Ice Storm.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:44 pm

You don't know how to use the master spells properly then. Look in the link in my above post, you will see the potential of the master spells.

I will check your link. I have seen a bunch of proof about the total lack of overall damage and I have tried it out but I will check your link.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:46 pm

why are u using that on one mob???

its supposed to be an AOE spell, use only on mobs

u twit

here is a tip

summon fire golem, when everything is targeting it spam the spell 2 times = everything dies

take the perks also

personally the master spells seemed OP to me since I can vaporize a dragon out of the sky with the lightning storm of doom

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:08 pm

I think the issue in this game is that melee is too strong, not that magic is too weak.

That being said though, I like the master level spells. In case you didn't know, Fire Storm does more damage to enemies closest to you and less to those far away. With Fire Storm just yesterday I cleared out a mob of high-level bandits (marauders I think) in one Fire Storm spell. I also play on adept (aka "normal" difficulty) so that might factor into it. But I also have both Augmented Flames perks and the Master perk to reduce cost to 1/2.

But I also use other spells besides destruction. For example, I'll use a Mass Paralysis before using Fire Storm, so I can cast it without problems.

Nice Marmot, definitely hear you, especially on Ice Storm. Dual-casted Ice Storm with all the perks will take dow ANYTHING, even frost resistant foes. I've 1-shotted draugrs and nords with dual-casted Ice Storm.

As I read it on UESP, Firestorm does 100 damage at point-blank. Dual-cast Fireball does 88 (Dual cast multiplier is 2.2x damage and 2.8x mana). So.... for being able to move while charging up, using *FAR* less mana, and having a longer range by nature of Fireball being a projectile, I lose... 12 points of base damage.

For the amount of mana that Firestorm costs, I could dual cast Fireball nearly six times.

My source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Destruction_Spells

Fireball does 40 base damage at a cost of 86 base mana.

Dual-casting ramps up the damage to 88 (2.2x) at a cost of 240.8 mana (2.8x).

Firestorm on the other hand does a max of 100 damage with a base cost of 1426 mana.

Do you see the problem now?

The master spells would be worth something if they actually were efficient... but they aren't at *ALL*. :shakehead:

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:25 am

personally the master spells seemed OP to me since I can vaporize a dragon out of the sky with the lightning storm of doom

Against dragons it's overpowered but Lightning Storm doesn't stun certain high level mobs. Also, Draugr shouts outrange Lightning Storm and interrupt the spell.

In other words, it's OP in some scenarios but not others--just as it should be.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:59 am

You don't know how to use the master spells properly then. Look in the link in my above post, you will see the potential of the master spells.

I checked the link. I will have to test it out myself. It still seems underwhelming compared to fire bolts and ice spikes.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:31 pm

Here's what would get me to start using master magic in the destruction school- a bolt type effect that did 225 damage for 1400 base mana, standard cast time for bolt spells. A fire, lightning, and ice variant.

In terms of the conjuration school, I would use the master spells if you could summon a Xivilai. Would repeatedly cast Incinerate and Chain Lightning.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:02 pm

This is discussion is so off the mark.

Destruction needs a complete rebalance because, when you're high level, 90% of your spells are complete useless. For istance, i'd like to use my rune spells to set traps for my enemies, but what's the point in that when it's going to do 60 damage? How is that even reasonable? I'd also like to use the various "wall" spells: i like the idea behind them, but again they're completely useless because they do no damage at all. So, to be able to SURVIVE, i'm forced to rely on very boring stunlock, spamming the same spell over and over, and letting two Dreamora lord do all the job for me.

I really don't find this funny. At all.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:55 am

The biggest insult is that enemy mage's destruction spells hit like a truck and they can rapid fire them.

This.

With the resistance bug still affecting my game (Xbox), even though I'm level 40 I get OWNED by mages using fairly mundane spells. Ice spikes doing half of my health in damage, and fire runes killing me in one hit.

Fire rune is supposed to do 50 damage according to the game. Even with the +50% fire perk, that would be 75 points of damage. I have 250 health and got killed instantly. What's wrong with that? How come we cant do that as a player character?

Fix it Bethesda. I want my destruction magic to actually DESTROY things. As it is...why even bother putting it in the game? It's so useless it might as well be gone in my opinion.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:35 pm

I noticed something during a freeze-frame moment... An enemy ice projectile had Three (3!) ice projectiles in it.

I want scattershot destruction spells! :sadvaultboy:

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:04 am

I like the master level spells, lightning storm can be devastating with the 4x25% reduction in destruction and I've found it helps to use the slow time shout then go into the wind up, but you can hold the lightning storm indefinitely though your stuck in one place

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

I want scattershot destruction spells! :sadvaultboy:

That would be a nice effect.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:40 pm

All this talk of destruction magic being useless is simply not true, I don't know what your doing wrong but if I want to feel like a god I use my destruction spells. I've actually changed my combat style to melee in search of a challenge because nothing can withstand my magic

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:10 pm

Has anyone tried using wards with mage armor with all the perks and cost reductions?

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:56 am

Try taking the reduced mana cost for master level destruction spells and both fire damage perks.

And then stand their 5 seconds, praying you don't get killed, only to barely hurt the mobs.

Ive seen a lot of arguements at this site but anyone defending the master destro spells are really reaching. Lightening-storm does less damage than spamming dc-Tbolt, and costs more magicka, and roots you. The other 2 barely hurt mobs and root you with long casts, and cost too much magicka.

You've basically got to abuse enchanting to even use them reliably, and even then they svck and kill slower than other spells.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:28 pm

Has anyone tried using wards with mage armor with all the perks and cost reductions?

The armour rating stacks if that's what you mean. So an Ebonyflesh + 3 perks in Mage Armour + Greater ward will give you 380 armour rating. That figure may be higher with dual casting but I have not tested it. They can also absorb an incoming spell's Magicka.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:34 pm

The armour rating stacks if that's what you mean. So an Ebonyflesh + 3 perks in Mage Armour + Greater ward will give you 380 armour rating. That figure may be higher with dual casting but I have not tested it. They can also absorb an incoming spell's Magicka.

Even better would be ebonyflesh with mage armor, giving 300 armor rating. Then a shield (which doesn't affect mage armor) in the left hand. You could come very close to the armor cap with this, using the lord stone helps further.

It's what I do :smile:

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:54 am

Even better would be ebonyflesh with mage armor, giving 300 armor rating. Then a shield (which doesn't affect mage armor) in the left hand. You could come very close to the armor cap with this, using the lord stone helps further.

It's what I do :smile:

Oh well, no shields for me. Not this build anyway. But I agree with you that a Mage can get themselves some pretty solid protection. My experience is that I tend to only need to survive an initial hit to let me escape or react in some fashion. Most of the time my mage is nowhere near the pointy end of a fight.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:28 pm

Come again?

I'm rolling a spellsword and I LIVED in armor spells for a LONG time.

Only recently swapped to light armor after maxing enchanting (Was using archmage robes up until now. Had 1 perk in Mage-Armor... which I also used when I've been forced to give up my gear... for... uhm... some reason

)

I still use armor spells to give myself a fat bonus to my armor for any harder fight (if I'm takin on a Giant... and not going to just stun lock it

... then I want that armor. Boss fights, Snow bears... etc)

Dragon hide + ebonyskin will make you practically impervious to melee damage for 30 seconds.

Paralyze (expert level) is a great off-hand attack and mass-paralyze is additionally ridiculously powerful.

Conjuration Master spells are obviously worth while.... and are out of combat casts so who cares about mana cost and cast-time

I could see Restoration master spells being more useful if you had more followers... as-is doubt I'll ever cast it

Anyways... Destro magic could use some scaling... but dual-cast expert spells deal around 200 per cast fully buffed with perks (only 2 per element) and stagger enemies. (60 base dmg. +50% dmg from 2x perk raises single cast damage to 90. Dual-Cast is slightly more than 2x damage which is 180+ some change and of course Impact)

Additionally, you can craft potions that will further pump destro magic for a short time for any boss fights where you really need to crank out the damage.

Combine with either Free or insanely reduced magicka cost from gear and you've got a character who can hit pretty hard, at range, quickly, while stun locking enemies, indefinitely.

Also, when cost is free from gear (or reduced in cost 75% off from gear on half base cost with perks leaving only 12% original cost) the mana cost on master spells really ain't that bad.

Dragonhide and the armor spells are simply inferior in multiple ways to actual armor - high cost. long cast time, less mitigation by far on the armor spells, and a short duration. Considering there's no real downside to wearing light armor as a mage alteration's only real allure would be paralysis, which while good doesn't make up for how lame it's armor spells are, and if I want control I go for Illusion. I'd be using alteration in spite of most of it's issues if it weren't for the duration issue, but I can't justify wasting one of only 8 hotkeys on something I can get passive.
Dremora Lords > Thralls, Master spells for conjuration still aren't terrible but I'd never perk master in conjuration.
As for Destro, potions/poisons will make any skill do overpowered damage, alchemy on it's own is overpowered, doesn't make destruction's damage fine

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:26 am

Even with the cost reduction, damage increase AND stagger perks, plus putting all points into magicka. I still end up out of magicka before killing anything bigger than a "normal" creature. I'm beginning to believe that destruction was built around the idea of gettting 100% magicka reduction.

Really? That's interesting. I can usually dual cast several fireballs and take most enemies down. Costs about 10 magicka or so per ball (balls, not bolts). This is with high fortify destro, of course.

Otherwise, dual-wielding swords chops them up nicely, too.

» Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:47 pm

I knew it was a screwup to remove Spellcrafting, but did anyone listen? Nooooooooo.

» Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:06 am

Yet another thread about this, eh?

It's true, though: The Master Destruction spells in Skyrim are an absolute joke. Wave your hands around for an eternity, watch your mana evaporate faster than an American politician flip-flops (yes, enchanted gear can prevent this entirely — fantastic game design right there), and then shave slivers off of enemy health bars. Perks like Impact and Disintegration only work reliably on enemy redshirts that can easily be killed with an iron dagger if you really wanted to. The real problem with Destruction is that it apparently wasn't designed to account for the actual stats of enemies later on in the game, or else left sort of crappy so that Fortify Destruction potions are needed rather than optional.

Illusion is a much worse mess, though. It's a school of magic that affects enemies by level in a level-scaling game that doesn't tell you the enemies' levels (unless you use the console, which I have done), every Illusion perk (and I do mean every Illusion perk, except for Novice/Adept/etc.) is simply a way to un-nerf Illusion so that your spells don't bounce off of everything, and eventually you're forced to dual-cast almost every spell (and/or use a strong potion) just to effect enemies that are the same level as you.

They screwed the pooch with magic in Skyrim, I mean utterly demolished it. They took a perfectly good, complex (though yes, slightly OP) sandbox magic system and turned it into an absolutely garbage copy of Dungeons & Dragons pre-made spells.