Firestorm does ~300 damage to everything near you and ignores enemy armor. I think it's pretty good.

Blizzard is the best Master Level Destruction spell though, no competition. Melee enemies don't even have a chance.

I meant in addition to the spells normal effect, it would, when cast, provide 1 second of immunity. It was in response to 'making casting armor spells interesting'

Some people think that the true "power" of high level destruction is in wearing enchantments that bring casting cost to zero. That is not power though, that is economical casting, and I do not wish to be frugal wizard; I want to be BAMF wizard. So my mage is on hold until the creation kit comes out and I can deal with it to my own satisfaction.

I'm not a fan of the Master-tier Destruction spells because they do not fit my playstyle as a pure Destruction mage (excepting Lightning Storm.)

Two of the spells appear to be oriented towards a spellsword-type character that expects to get up close and personal with mobs, and that's not something I want to do. Master-tier should IMO cater to both playstyles, like Adept-tier Destruction with 3xAOE and 3xCloak.

I don't mind the long casting time as a means of balance, but the damage output should reflect it accordingly.

If you really can't figure out how to play a mage intelligently without relying on pure DPS, there are mods for that. Search "destruction" on Skyrimnexus and pick your mod of choice.

More like, 'if you genuinely don't enjoy playing a mage who can't deal any significant DPS ...'

The only Master Spell I liked was Dragon Skin, and I only used in tough fights, usually just dual casting ebony flesh.

The master destruction spells were a serious letdown. I guess the master illusion spells seemed pretty cool but my mage never used illusion school.

I never used the master summons because those atronachs lasted long enough as it is and they just get in the way unless you are outside.

Expert spells across the board are much better and more rewarding.

I could dual-cast a Fireball at my feet for a better-damaging AOE-at-my-position spell. Twice. Without being stuck by the absurdly long cast time.

88 damage for 240 base mana cost (excluding skill or enchant reducers)... vs 100 damage for 1426 base mana. Let's do a damage/mana ratio calculation...

For the dual-cast Fireball, 2.72 mana per point of fire damage. (dual cast effect multiplier is 2.2, mana multiplier is 2.8).

For Firestorm? 14.26.

I could just as easily shoot dual-cast fireballs at my feet to get the draugr melee-ing me, then shoot dual-cast fireballs at the draugr shooting Frostbite at me, then shoot dual-cast fireballs at the draugr archers/ice spike casters. And still probaly have mana to spare. And still be able to maneuver. And do more damage to the far-away guys since Firestorm has a fall-off. The only case there that is inferior to Firestorm is the melee guys. But seeing that I can maneuver while charging up (which takes MUCH less time than Firestorm), the 12 less damage is easily counteracted.

Master-level destruction spells svck. Quantifiable proof.

Destruction spells in general just cost too much to be a viable kill skill to begin with, unless you commit enchantment abuse. Magic in general suffers because it takes so long to replenish magic unless you go pure mage and cover yourself head to toe in magicka regen effects (which competes for space with the Destruction enchants) and go with one of the robes (precluding spellsword or battlemage or nightblade builds). Melee? They still can do normal attacks when they have insufficient mana. No such luck with Destruction spells. Defense? Ward takes too long to charge up unless you dual-cast (which means no hands for spells or a weapon), and also consumes a lot of mana as well, which means even less precious mana for casting Destruction spells.

The only redeeming feature of Destruction as it is in vanilla is the Impact effect... which feels like a cheap exploit, as any sort of Stunlock effect would.

Or you can admit that they obviously svck.

Then I misunderstood you and the error is mine; for which I apologise.



I can't follow this argument? Surely the currency conversion provides the equality that we are talking about?



Yes; there exists the possibility that a sub optimal build of type A is equal to an optimal build of type B or any number of other potential equivalences. I suspect that we largely agree with each other but have misconstrued our respective positions. My argument was simply to point out that all builds arriving at the same offensive and defensive output, by design, negates any real choices in builds. It is not to argue that the current set up is an illusion; rather, that a mechanic that produces the sort of equivalence that I discuss would be an illusion.




It is unfortunate; but it is also beyond my power to alter.

Master Difficulty halfs your damage dealt.

If you were playing on Adept, you'd have killed the Bear no problem.

But when the bear has double his normal HP and you do half as much damage...well, thats what happens.

The solution for PC users is pretty clearly "use a magic-rebalancing mod". I see that there are several popular ones on Skyrim Nexus that take different approaches:

http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=870
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2275
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=382
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=611
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1236
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1245

WTB comparison review that discusses the pros and cons of these mods!

It looks to me that magic is fine but the smithing/enchanting combo is broken. If you can one hit a dragon or a mamoth, there is something wrong with the equation. If you scale magic to this same scenario then you break magic also. That being said, free destruction spells sounds rather iffy, too. (25 + 25 ect.)

Thanks for these links.

I am a Conjurerer, so I cannot agree with you.

You are talking about master destruction spells... Yesterday, i killed almost all guards casting a MAYHEM and watching they kill themselves. Casting Harmony or Hysteria is also very funny and efficient. Knowing how to use spells is required to a mage playstile. Always was... So, maybe we just miss that ridiculous overpowered spellcrafting?

Wish the Master Destruction spell would be like this:
Fire: *Press Right Trigger* *Launch a ball of fire* *Repeat*
That would be much better. Firebolt should've been like this. Press, launch, no need to hold down trigger, let go, then launch. IMO that's way to slow in heavy combat situations.
I'm on 360 BTW so don't say, "Get teh modz."

Well, I wanted to play a mage, but I always run out of mana (and I'm not even at master spells yet O.o) so I ended up playing a mage that also dual wield swords =P I'm kinda loving the Ice Spike spell.

Why would a frickin Snow Bear or any Animal be one of the toughest enemies in a game? Animals generally are always low level. Demons, Dragons, and Humans are always the more difficult higher level ones. I find fighting pretty much anything but Humans to be pretty damn boring. At least with humanoid enemies, you get some variety in playstyle and tactics. It isn't a stupid 4 leg rodent or bear that charges and tries to bite/claw you. So a bear is supposed to be a formidable opponent for someone who can shoot fireballs? Does not make sense.

Come again?

I'm rolling a spellsword and I LIVED in armor spells for a LONG time.

Only recently swapped to light armor after maxing enchanting (Was using archmage robes up until now. Had 1 perk in Mage-Armor... which I also used when I've been forced to give up my gear... for... uhm... some reason )

I still use armor spells to give myself a fat bonus to my armor for any harder fight (if I'm takin on a Giant... and not going to just stun lock it ... then I want that armor. Boss fights, Snow bears... etc)

Dragon hide + ebonyskin will make you practically impervious to melee damage for 30 seconds.

Paralyze (expert level) is a great off-hand attack and mass-paralyze is additionally ridiculously powerful.

Conjuration Master spells are obviously worth while.... and are out of combat casts so who cares about mana cost and cast-time

I could see Restoration master spells being more useful if you had more followers... as-is doubt I'll ever cast it

Anyways... Destro magic could use some scaling... but dual-cast expert spells deal around 200 per cast fully buffed with perks (only 2 per element) and stagger enemies. (60 base dmg. +50% dmg from 2x perk raises single cast damage to 90. Dual-Cast is slightly more than 2x damage which is 180+ some change and of course Impact)

Additionally, you can craft potions that will further pump destro magic for a short time for any boss fights where you really need to crank out the damage.

Combine with either Free or insanely reduced magicka cost from gear and you've got a character who can hit pretty hard, at range, quickly, while stun locking enemies, indefinitely.

Also, when cost is free from gear (or reduced in cost 75% off from gear on half base cost with perks leaving only 12% original cost) the mana cost on master spells really ain't that bad.

Still doesn't change the fact that it's still a whole lot cheaper to spam dual-cast Fireball/Icestorm/Chain Lightning all over the place than to cast those things with their long vulnerable wind-up times.

And more effective, since the projectile puts the full damage right at the far-away foe's feet instead of damage fall-off. The only advantage of the master spells over dual-cast Adept-level AOEs is 12% more damage at point-blank range.

Master spells are useful, you need to know how to use them.

I do prefer conjuration expert spells, as thralls annoy me, but other people like thralls and they can be useful/powerful (using dead thrall on dremora/mages is good).

Illusion master spells I have no use for as I dual cast the novice spells on everything I come across that isn't immune (dragons etc), which is good considering I'm level 60+. But the master spells can be okay for the AoE effect.

But the destruction master spells, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1307527-fire-stormblizzard-does-more-damage-than-stated/

Alteration mass paralyse is brilliant to, and dragonhide provides the maximum protection available for 99+ seconds (with the duration perk and dual casting, dual casting doesn't work on other master spells btw), what is wrong with that?! I always get the battle done in 99 seconds.

You just need to know how to use them well.

The biggest insult is that enemy mage's destruction spells hit like a truck and they can rapid fire them.

The master spells are underwhelming. The lack of destructions total lack of any real offense without impact is disappointing. It's a shame we have to count on one perk to make destruction useful. It's also easier to use fire bolt and ice spike over the highest level spells, which is just bad game design.

I see threads on this forum and other about people who have made epic wargods by exploiting enchanting and smithing and alchemy, these people always complain that skyrim is boring now because they can 1-hit everything and have ruined their experience.

Then there are these threads. People who apparently want to be able to 1-hit with a fireball, again, killing the fun.

All these posts calculating destruction magic damage and costs are laughable for several reasons. You you whine and moan about how you are owned when you are using only destruction magic in combat, that's about the same as wanting to play as a warrior with a two handed sword who never bothered to level up heavy armor or blocking. Stop playing terribly and learn to use other spells. By using all the schools of magic cleverly I was able to come out on top from *every* conflict without having to resort to potions.

People wanting uber fireballs just simply don't understand the concept of playing as a mage, either that or they play MMO's who always focus on DPS and now have a corrupt idea on how mages are supposed to play like.