That actually sorta made sense...thanks.

So my initial treatment of merged patches from FO3Edit as bash patches from Oblivion is flawed? Kinda doesnt explain why my game's a ton more stable with them than without.

Better not change that anyway.

I?m not someone to say anything in this topic, just wanted to say that if it?s more stable it doesn?t mean it works as intended.



It?s like some users in Oblivion modding said things like "My game is more stable if I use this mod without Obse". Well duh, they were breaking a script that required Obse. The script happened to have bugs that caused instability, and breaking it non-functional naturally avoided to ctds. But not working at all is not exactly the same as working better.


Just wanted to point out that it?s POSSIBLE that you are blocking something that you actually wanted to have in your game, it just happened to have bugs you are now blocking AS WELL. Not saying it has to be like that, though.

The engine only reads http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/JustinCoherent/Fallout%203/ONAM.jpg, where it was previously thought it read one list for each master. Now it makes one, unified ONAM list with all the overridden forms from all masters consolidated like the engine wants them. It makes perfect sense now why my Refurbish DLC [PL] plugin wasn't working properly for users who'd ESM'ified it since it overrode placed references from both Fallout3.ESM and PointLookout.ESM. As an ESM, only the [00] overrides were being handled properly while PL overrides were ignored. As an .esp, everything worked perfectly. After extensive playtesting, it was found that everything works perfectly with the new file header format, thankfully, as masterupdating is still a good idea until/unless Beth completely fixes the remnants of the 1.5 persistent reference bug ...thing.

BTW, you're not alone in that convo's w/ Elminster often leave my head spinning too. :ahhh:

I spoke with Elminster and Martigen about this following the Alpha-release of the FO3Edit manual, and this is really all my fault that the perception of the merged patch is a cure-all, easy-button. Like Oblivious to Reality, I used merged patches for quite some time at first because it really Does make the game more stable with a huge mod list. But as Skycaptain said, that comes at the cost of some features from some mods not working or not working correctly. However it can still a Good idea to use a merged patch in conjunction with a manually-created patch plug-in. When I asked, Elminster said,



Of Merged Patches, he also said;



Martigen in a very eloquent letter also explained to me how the merged-patch is not what many people think, as he re-stated in this same thread. I have not finished updating the FO3Edit manual with all of the feedback yet, real-life has had some un-expected surprises for me in the last month. When updated however, the entire sections on Patch-Plug-ins, Merged Patches and the Modding-Up process will all be completely revised to teach the use of both the merged patch and manually-created patch plug-in as well as new material that emphasis proper use of the the FOIP patch plug-ins, so people understand how significant the FOIP patches are when creating patch plug-ins.

For me the bottom line is to use both a merged-patch and manual patch-plug-ins along with the correct FOIPs and MasterUpdate = best achievable gaming experience with a large mod list.

Miax

This is for everyone -- you know you can have more that one merged patch?

If you make a merged patch of WMK and FWE, then another Faces All and Project Beauty or whatever, just as long as you're not merging mods that alter the same records. Well, you can do that too, but as you know -- load order priorities and all -- the last one will take precedence for those records that overlap between them.



Merged Patch is not Bashed Patch. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure Bashed did a lot more 'intelligent' merging. Merged Patch is like a subset of Bash, but it's no where near the whole hog. I think Elminster expressed he didn't have time a Bashed equivalent, but anyone else was welcome to try.



Thanks Max. And I just want to point out -- the Merged Patch function isn't flawed, it's doing exactly what you tell it to. The awareness to raise is that you don't actually always want what it does. I can't speak for all mods or all mod load orders, but I can resolutely say using a merged patch with MMM and FOOK (the mods I've been focusing on) will undo changes that it shouldn't.

Or to put it another way: if you're using a merged patch with MMM and FOOK, your game is not currently working properly.

However in the absence of proper manual patch, you can restore some (I don't know about all, it'd take a much deeper look at the merged patch) of the records by loading the MMM-FOOK plugins last, after the merged patch. Again, this may not be the case with other mods (see Kai's note about WMK and FOIP) but that's part of the problem: so many mods, so many combinations. Which is why, unless you actually need a patch like with WMK, don't use one. All the 'merging' you need is usually handled by compatibility plugins like FOIP -- that's why we made them.


And I know that won't be an easy task to write up eloquently, so I tip my hat to you

One other thought:

I mentioned this idea in the FWE thread, but I wonder if a future version of FO3Edit would be able to have a new funcrtion that is "Merge record into a plugin." For example, you could select just the FormLists used by WMK, right click on them, and select this option. You would be prompted to specify a destination plugin (or create a new one), and the feature would merge all the versions of those FormLists across your load order into that specified file. Essentially, this works the same as the Merged Patch, but just let's you choose individual records to merge.

This would be a great feature not only for mod users, but also for mod creators. The advantage from a mod user side is that the install instructions, for say WMK, would direct you to just merge the set of FormLists that are actually relevant to that mod, rather than end up merging a bunch of records that shouldn't be merged.

Just a hopeful throught =)

Your right on that score, I have to ditch two whole chapters and create a single new one (lol). I think JustinOther had a good name for it, "BORG.esm".



Actually I think thats a fine idea! We need to get word from the boss on it's viability. I havn't seen Elminster post in some time, he may still be out and about with RL stuff. I'll drop him a line today and ask him to check out this thread and get his thoughts.

Miax

he's not hard to catch on quakenet #fallout3modding.

Do I need to update phalanx's entire mod or just the master update?

hm I'm not sure...

If you're a Phalanx user and your Phalanx version isn't up to date (1.03), I mean... I would suggest updating it? but in terms of what this version of FO3MasterUpdate fixes, which is the Broken Steel Integration module, it would only be necessary to get the FO3MasterUpdate update.

I'm sorry I asked the question wrong:(. Do I need to DL the phalanx mod or just the master update?

The buxfixed version of FO3MasterUpdate is not tied to Phalanx (but the opposite is somewhat true at this point). I was just putting my link to MasterUpdate up since its the one with the bugfix, and Elminster's own release hasn't happened yet.

So I mean - - no you don't need to download Phalanx to use the updated FO3MasterUpdate... (but um *cough* feel free if you want ).

Hrmph.

Well the Game of the Year Edition of Fallout3 has been released - with no accompanying GECK patch. Lately Bethesda has released their GECK patches at the same time as major updates, and this darkens my hope for a v1.8 patch that fixes the Navmeshing issues. It would seem, at least to me, that MasterUpdate is and shall be a long-term requirement.

At least the effort Elminster and others have put into MasterUpdate has not gone to waste!

Miax

I think it's safe to say that we won't see a 1.8 patch. Hell, the only reason we saw any patch beyond the first two was because Bethesda considered achievements to be important to gameplay.

For the first ten seconds I completely misread the topic title "masterupdate" and was thinking that we aren't allowed to discuss six here..
I really need a date



on the actual topic:
I'm wondering whether master update will be needed when the GotY edition comes out.
Any speculation?

GotY is still version 1.7, so yes to fix navmesh problems in esps it will still be required.

okido, thanks Kai

..and DRG6520, :goodjob:

..and Miax

..Tarrant as well of course..

Christ, I actually read all of this and then still posted the question :facepalm:

this cold medicine is wreaking havok with me.
I feel like road kill..


..slumping off to bed again.

Yeap cold medicine will do that!

Good to see you old_andy. Hope you feel better!

For Today I would recommend MasterUpdate and use of the FOIP patches.

Tomorrow (or rather when I get the manual updated), using a Merged-Patch and manual Patch-Plug-in will also be recommended with documented procedures. Its recommended today, but my documentation on doing it properly is mis-organized. In summary though, if you use the FOIP patches and MasterUpdate, you should have a near crash-free and mostly-functional mod list.

Cheers,

Miax

Here's my situation. Im still using patch 1.1.35. My game is now running fine with no issues. But Im going to buy the GOTY edition soon as i dont have any of the DLC's as yet.

The GOTY edition will update my game to 1.7. The thing i want to avoid is the mismatched face/body tone bug that is present in patches 1.5 and above.
(unless the GOTY edition fixes this bug ??? but ive not seen any info that it contains any other fixes other than those already found in 1.7)

As far as im aware i have to alternatives.

1. use master update on the mods that are be effected by this face/body skin tone mismatch. However some of these mods rely on a esm i made that has weapons and armors. So if i esmify the face bug mods wont they lose the ability to read the info from the weapon and armor esm ?

2. Add bLoadFaceGenHeadEGTFiles=1 to my fallout.ini. Does this really fix mismatched face/body skin tone problem ? any negatives to going this route ? As it seems the most straight forward

Assistance in pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated. thanks .

All this information about the Merged Patch is news to me, as I was also confused about what the merged patch did (I though it was the same as the bashed patch from Oblivion).

Thanks for this valuable information Martigen and Kai :thumbsup:

I think this should be a sticky!

Cause this information clears up a lot of misunderstandings regarding FO3

Fascinating read Mart.Thanks for the information. :read:

What kind of mods should be merged,and what should be avoided please?

Hi All.

As the title of this thread reads. with the list of Mods I'm running as a clean game.

Do I need to Use a Merged Patch?

[X] Fallout3.esm
[X] PointLookout.esm
[X] Anchorage.esm
[X] ThePitt.esm
[X] BrokenSteel.esm
[X] Zeta.esm
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esm
[X] FaceMe.esm
[X] Destruction.esm
[X] CRAFT.esm
[X] CALIBR.esm
[X] StreetLights.esm
[X] FOOK2 - Main.esm
[X] FOOK2 - [[censored]] World And Neighbourhood Kit.esm
[X] FOOK2 - [DIK] DLC Improvement Kit.esm
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod.esm
[X] Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Operation Anchorage.esp
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - The Pitt.esp
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Broken Steel.esp
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Point Lookout.esp
[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Mothership Zeta.esp
[X] DarNifiedUIF3.esp
[X] FaceMe.esp
[X] FaceMe-Broken Steel.esp
[X] CASM.esp
[X] CRAFT - Activation Perk.esp
[X] CALIBRxMerchant.esp
[X] DelayAnchorage.esp
[X] DelayThePitt.esp
[X] DelaySteel.esp
[X] delaypl.esp
[X] delayzeta.esp
[X] Auto Aim Fix v1.1.esp
[X] GalaxyNewsRadio100[M].esp
[X] Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.esp
[X] Enhanced Weather - Rainbows.esp
[X] Enhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.esp
[X] Fellout-Anchorage.esp
[X] Fellout-BrokenSteel.esp
[X] Fellout-pipboylight.esp
[X] NotSoFast.esp
[X] rockville.esp
[X] SniperZooming.esp
[X] Destruction - Main - Statics.esp
[X] DCInteriors_ComboEdition.esp
[X] FOOK2 - Main.esp
[X] FOOK2 - [EVE] Energy Visuals Enhanced.esp
[X] FOOK2 - [DIK] DLC Improvement Kit.esp
[X] FOOK2 - Mothership Zeta.esp
[X] FOOK2 - [DESTRUCTION] Main - Statics.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - UFP Support.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Alternate Travel.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Lvl 30 High Skills.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Followers Enhanced.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Followers Enhanced (BrokenSteel).esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Restore Tracers.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional VATS Realtime.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Worn Weapons.esp
[X] Stealthboy Recon Armor - CRAFT.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Zeta.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - No Corpse Flies.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - No Ghoul Raise.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - No Skeleton Decay.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - Hunting & Looting.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - Zones Respawn.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FOOK2.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FOOK2 - DIK.esp
[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.esp
[X] FaceMe-MMM.esp
[X] StreetLights - Wasteland.esp
[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - FOOK Support.esp
[X] FWE - FOOK DLC Support.esp
[X] Reykjavik.esp
[X] Fellout-SOTD.esp
[X] RockopolisRebuilt.esp
[X] P94-95.esp
[X] Sally Fix 2.1.esp
[X] UF3P [BS anomaly].esp
[X] MyFOOK2 - Black & White Tranquility Lane.esp
[X] MyFOOK2 - No [censored] Victims.esp
[X] Rivet City Realignment.esp

I know how to create a merged patch,But as Martens has said earlier in this thread."If you don't know what the patch does you shouldn't use One"

If I want to avoid certain Mods from being merged when Do I uncheck them? In FOMM or when the list appears with FO3Edit?

And Lastly.When looking for information in FOMM I get WARNING: This plugin has the file extension .esp, but its file header marks it as an esm!
Have I made an error running FO3edit?Also I'm intending to start a New game.Should I run Masterupdate to sort the Files?

Thank You for any Advice.

James.

Wow... I really missread Masterupdate. :blink: Must be getting tired.

Nilms,

I recommend you make sure your using the http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4968, which you can get from Nexus. Merged patches can be useful, but you will need to learn how to create them first - and they are not always needed if you use the FOIP patches. You still need MasterUpdate with a big mod list, but I think you can get away with all of the FOIPs and MasterUpdate if the mods work for you.

Also make sure to get Mez's Merged Patch from the http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2761 if you use FWE.


Miax