i downloaded a couple of mods recently that said to use masterupdate. i was under the impression that as of patch 1.6 that was no longer necessary since the issue with crashing because of changes to exterior cells had been resolved. could someone clarify for me if im still supposed to esmify all my esps again. i havent had any issues and i use FWE and MMM. :dance:

It still is. There are bugs with new NPC skins and with nav meshes that MasterUpdate fixes.

I'm using FWE and a bunch of other mods with 1.7 and haven't had any problems without .esmifying my plugins. Yes, there are navmesh issues, but hopefully people who add new namveshes will know enough to make their mod an .esm. Most mods don't need to be updated.

do i esmify my bash patch as well or do i leave that as an esp file.

It does matter when load order issues are involved. ESMs will ALWAYS load before ESPs, even if they're ESMified ESPs, even if the ESM has a later modified date than the ESP. If one module needs to have a specific relative position in the load order to another (due to overrides or module masters), and ESM/ESP differences are involved, you will need Master Update, especially if there's plugin mastering involved. MasterUpdate takes care of load order as well, ensuring that true ESMs are moved to load before the ESMified ESPs. It's also a great way to detect plugin master load mixups, as Master Update will spit out an error message pointing you to the offending module.




Yes. Just let MasterUpdate do its thing. Be sure to delete the slew of backups it makes (I really wish that could be turned off...)

oh thats where those backup files came from....... yeah i got annoyed by them as well. especially since i already have backups of alot of my esps anyways since i make changes to many of them.

I make it a habit to master-restore, modify (I have some personal mods of my own I tweak from time to time, yes, I'm a bit meticulous), delete old mergedpatch, create new mergedpatch, masterupdate.

Long tedious process, but it garners me a 99% stable game. If I messed up along the way, I'm pretty sure I'll notice when my game starts CTDing all the time.

Of course if a mod has to be loaded late in the LO then making it an .esm may be problematic. But thats why modders are very often including an .esp that's largely blank so you can set a more useful load order through its position.

I don't want to indicate that there's anything wrong with masterupdate. I think it was a very useful utility with the 1.5 patch. But since there are workarounds to the problems associated with .esps (make an .esm and use an override .esp) I really think that the community would be better off without having to -masterupdate their whole load order. There are many more players than modders so it is just another source of confusion and questions that can be avoided with a little update work.

That creates two modules where a mod could more easily be packed into one module. Remember that there is only address space for 254 modules, and heavy mod users can fill that up before they realize it.

MasterUpdate is hardly difficult either. Double-click, and (barring module mastering issues) it does it all on its own, ESM flagging and ONAM generation and all. Double-click on MasterRestore, and it undoes it.

Agreed, not to mention that flagging certain esps as master files can cause the nasty black hole effect. However sadly it is also impractical to make esm's for some plugins, it would be more helpful if the navmesh bug was finally patched.

Just a note on this -- for everyone because I see a lot of people using merged patches:

Do you use a merged patch? Do you know why you're using one?

If the answer is 'no', stop using it. Unfortunately the mentality is going around that a merged patch will just make everything work together hunky dory, but this isn't the case. In fact, in some cases using one has been known to cause CTDs (some mods clearly aren't too happy with the result of the merge).

A merged patch is a useful tool for specific records of specific mods. If you're making one with the 'select all mods and hit create merged patch' you could be damaging up, and not improving, your game. Using just an example from MMM and FOOK if you create a merged patch with these mods you are undoing intentional changes in how the mods work together.

There's a reason we made the FOIP patches -- these are painstakingly hand-made 'merged patches' that merge what should be merged, and don't merge what shouldn't. While FO3Edit's merged patch functionality only works on certain record types, these include level lists which MMM and FOOK use extensively. Some lists are designed to replace eachother, and merging them undoes this work.

There are some very good legitimate uses of the merged patch functionality, but it should be used on select mods only that you know you need to merge to get the functionality you're after. Otherwise, don't use one, you don't need it and it's possibly hindering and not helping.

I return you to your normal programming...

one of the mods i was using....i think it was WMK?....said to use a bash patch. i use FO3edits bash patch. am i just supposed to select only WMK and FWE and then create one or all of the mods. i also use the FOIP patch so would those settings be the dominant ones in the bash patch anyways? i want my wrye bash for fallout 3

Fallout3.esmAnchorage.esmThePitt.esmBrokenSteel.esmPointLookout.esmZeta.esmUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esmCALIBR.esmCRAFT.esmFO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esmEnclaveCommander-OA-Pitt-Steel.esmEnhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esmMart's Mutant Mod.esmUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Operation Anchorage.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - The Pitt.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Broken Steel.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Point Lookout.espUnofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Mothership Zeta.espContinuousCyroCreation.espPointLookout_lesstraveltime-3to5days.espPoint Lookout Lower Health.esppointlookoutmadeeasy.espPointLookout-nofiring.espThePitt-NoFireFollowers.espCRAFT - Activation Perk.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - UFP Support.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - Power Armor Revamp.espFO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Restore Tracers.espantagonizer.espAlternateStart.espBlackWolf Backpack.espBobbleheadDelivery.espCaravan Tracking.espCRAFT -Zeta -  Activation Perk.espDarNifiedUIF3.esp3EFdrg.espEnhanced Tenpenny Suite.espHolyWaterPamphletsDisabler.espImproved Turrets.espTurret Terminal Re-Vamp.espLevelersTruckTrailer.espmechanist.espNoBackpackOnTeslaArmor.espOutcast Collection Agent Expanded - DLC Plugin.esp1PipboyPDA.espPortable Camp.espPortable Turrets.espPrincess Better Prompts v1pt1.espradio_fix.espRemoteControlCompanions.esproyphilipsevilwmask.espSP_EFECT - Combat Elevation - Stronger Sneak - 3x.espTenpennyGhoulsAtPeace.espFPS Grenade Hotkey.espMore Hotkeys.esp3EFfaceplate.espHZ_PNV_NORMAL_ENG.espWeaponModKits.espWeaponModKits - OperationAnchorage.espWeaponModKits - ThePitt.espWeaponModKits - BrokenSteel.espWeaponModKits - PointLookout.espWeaponModKits - Zeta.espWeaponModKits - FWE Master Release.espMart's Mutant Mod.espMart's Mutant Mod - Increased Increased Spawns.espMart's Mutant Mod - Zones Respawn.espMart's Mutant Mod - Natural Selection.espMart's Mutant Mod - No Corpse Flies.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.espMart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.espMart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.espkhweaponscanner.espAuto Aim Fix v1.1.espSlower Degradation (-95%).espXFO_Speed_increase.espXFO_Weapskill_accuracy_notdmg_mild_FOOK.espPureWater-NoRad-.espBetter Companions Ess.espEssential death time 30 secondes.espCombatEnhanced-Package v02.espEcho_UseBothGloves.espFellout-Full.espFellout-Anchorage.espFellout-BrokenSteel.espFellout-PointLookout.espFellout-pipboylight.espEnhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.espEnhanced Weather - Sneak Bonus during Storms.espEnhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.esplessviewdistance.espSydney Follower.espSydney Follower - Load Order Fix.espBash Patch.espTotal active plugins: 102Total plugins: 102

OK, so how are we supposed to know when (and why) to use a merged patch? For instance, I read at the WMK readme that to use all the DLK expansions you must merge these through FO2Edit... is this true? Should I only merge the WMK patches or the WMK - FOOK patch as well? How do I make heads or tails out of this mess? Where am I? Who am I? ... HELP !!!

Just to belabour - and confuse - the point even more, here's an excerpt from the WMK readme:

"Automatic Merged Patch Creation:

- This is MANDATORY unless you use WMK on its own with no add-ons (such as compatibility patches or add-ons for DLC weapons); and even then it is strongly recommended as standard practice when using mods for FO3, as it may improve compatibility between mods you may be using (including - but not limited to - WMK).
- Download FO3Edit v2.5.0 or above (http://fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=637) to create the 'merged patch'. This should be done after you have installed and activated all the mods you wish to play the game with (and have configured your load order using a tool like Fallout Mod Manager (FOMM)). This is how to do it:
- Run FO3Edit, and a list of all the plugins in your Fallout 3\Data\ directory will come up, listed as per your load order. By default, the plugins you have activated in the Fallout 3 Launcher or in FOMM will have ticks next to them. This is what you want, so just click 'OK'.
- Once FO3Edit has finished loading, right-click somewhere in the panel on the left that lists your activated plugins, and select 'Create Merged Patch' from the context menu.
- Enter a name for the patch into the window that pops up (any name you like), and click on 'OK'.
- Once FO3Edit has finished generating the patch (it creates a new .esp file with the name you entered), which should only take a few seconds, close FO3Edit. Click 'OK' on the window that pops up to save the Merged Patch that was generated.
- Finally, make sure the Merged Patch esp is loading after all your other plugins (which it should already be, by default), and activate it using the Fallout 3 Launcher or FOMM.
- If you ever uninstall plugins - or install new ones - deactivate and delete the Merged Patch, and then follow these instructions again to create a new one."

Mart, I draw your attention to he bolded bits, which clearly talk about the benefits of applying Merged Patch for ALL your mods... help me please resolve this confusing and - dare I say - contradicting piece of advice from two respected sources...

Cheers, bendiwolf

Mart is right, a blind merged patch can cause unwanted mergers or in worst case serious issues. To be clear here, Merged Patches, Masterupdating and UFP are no Wundermittel, they all bring along their own issues.




To quote myself:

Well, that's the root of the problem! Everyone has different mods, with different load orders. There is no easy way to know, but in the absence of knowing which mods you need to merge and why, blindly selecting everything isn't a solution.

I have a very limited number of mods loaded at the moment (as I test MMM etc). Even from this small selection (which is basically MMM, FOOK2, Project Beauty and a few others) creating a merged patch produces issues like an NPC with the face data from FOOK and a beard from PB, and the FOOK2 LvlSlaver lists reversing the changes from the MMM-FOOK2 plugin (the result of which goes from a 100% operating merged FOOK2-MMM list to less than 10% chance of getting a FOOK2 Slaver).

And that's just from a quick browse of the patch, and loading six different mods. What's your patch like when you're loading 100?

The merged patch functionality wasn't designed to be a silver bullet, and shouldn't be used as such. Unless you need it, like WMK's instructions (relying on Form Lists), then I'd run without one. In the case of WMK select only WMK and any other mods that alter the form lists WMK does.

And if you absolutely must use one, load the FOIP plugins after it. At least this way the hand-made correct merging of mods will take prescedence (unless you follow Kal's advice above, which is good -- but note this means knowing your mods, and putting the work in. Again, no silver bullet).

The "merged patch" process is needed for WMK because the FormLists contain the information about what the input weapon get's translated to when you mod it. When you add the DLC's into the mix, each WMK-DLC file contains additional formlist entries specific to that DLC. These additional entires need to be merged across all the WMK-DLC because they are each adding to the same original formlist, which is used by the WMK scripts. To my knowledge, I don't think WMK needs the merged patch other than for this reason.

So, the confusion has resulted from the "merged patch" prcoess, which was needed for a VERY SPECIFIC situation, being presented as a general method of practice for getting mods to work together. Mart and Kai have covered everything else rather eloquently so I'll be quiet now =)

so basically just merge FWE and WMK and then move both of the FOIP esps after the bash patch.

Where can I get the master update?

Not the WMK FOIP patch...your merged patch needs to be loaded after it(and any other WMK mod), otherwise you defeat the entire purpose of the merged patch, since you would just be overwriting your merged form lists again.

The real download location is here:

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=637

but the one I have listed in my mod's updates is an early version of Elminster's next version that he made for me on September 29. It contains a fix that's specific to FO3MasterUpdate functionality: http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1925. He said I could distribute this early version since the fix he made is required for my Broken Steel related compatibility module to work right.

Tarrant, I've always wondered, what exactly is fixed in that FO3Edit distribution of course? Just curious

nuts...........hey can kai and martigen just fight until one of them wins and ill do it their way. violence is the best way to settle disagreements.

I have to admit, I like the way you think. But in this case it would be simpler if you either a) follow the instructions I posted above to clean up your merged patch or b ) you load the merged patch after all WMK files, but before the MMM files.

I wish that the IRC log in which Elminster explained this to me had not mysteriously disappeared

He explained that when he was setting up FO3edit to handle ONAMs initially, he had to pick from among 2 ways for multiple ONAMs to be handled, or... something.... He had no confirmation for sure between the two methods, nobody had ever told him which way it was supposed to be (that would be a Bethesda thing).

I am having trouble remembering exactly what the difference was between the two ONAM handling methods. It was kinda subtle. One was something like, only one ONAM for a particular record or, something, gets used... or that all the ONAMs need to be combined into one thing.. I wish I remembered exactly. Elminster can get really deep into this [censored] sometimes and my brain is like *cough* *splutter* *spin wheels*

He said that he happened to have picked the wrong one initially. But with my particular malfunction, it showed him positively that the other way was "the" way. And the change he made fixed my Broken Steel compatibility module right up.