Matching Up the Totems

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 12:31 am

Butterflies are just a type of moth: there's no way to form a biological distinction.

On Earth, maybe. But here on Nirn we've got taxonomically distinct Ancestor Moths who spin memories into silky fibrils.
User avatar
MISS KEEP UR
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:26 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 am

On Earth, maybe. But here on Nirn we've got taxonomically distinct Ancestor Moths who spin memories into silky fibrils.
Okay, that's well and good, but the fact is, the only image we are presented for "Moth" is a female. I doubt it's a coincidence that we are presented with 3 females and 6 males, the exact makeup of the 8+1. Since hawk is certainly Kyne, and wolf seems a good bet for Mara, that leaves moths to Dibella, an assignment which makes more sense if butterflies are subset of moths.
User avatar
Scarlet Devil
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:31 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 10:27 pm

Shor is the snake, or the dragon. Mostly because his Totem form has scales, and because he is a snake of Yokudan myths.
Kyne is the hawk
Tsun is the whale, both strong and intelligent (because he is Zenithar).
Stuhn is the bear, strong and brutal. I did read that bears will sometimes accept a "surrender".
Jhunal is the fox.
Mara is the wolf, for the same reason Dementor mentioned.
Dibella is the moth/butterfly
Akatosh/Alduin is the dragon.
Arkay is the owl.

Edit: Misread what Harute wrote.
User avatar
Prue
 
Posts: 3425
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:27 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:50 am

I am almost certain Dibella is a moth now:
a) moths have pretty colors
:cool: moths consume nectar from flowers, which are Dibella's symbol since Daggerfall
c) I am almost certain there's some kind of subliminal message behind the moth's proboscis and flowers, which is very much related to Dibella. :tongue:

But...
If Shor is a snake, why is Talos trying to kill him in that statue?
And wouldn't it make more sense to have Ysmir as one of the 9 instead of Arkay/Orkey?
User avatar
Lisha Boo
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:56 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:37 am

The statue is a wyrm.
User avatar
Stay-C
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:04 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:37 am

The statue is a wyrm.
I dont see any wings though. :/
User avatar
Nicole Coucopoulos
 
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:09 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 10:44 pm

I am almost certain Dibella is a moth now:
a) moths have pretty colors
:cool: moths consume nectar from flowers, which are Dibella's symbol since Daggerfall
c) I am almost certain there's some kind of subliminal message behind the moth's proboscis and flowers, which is very much related to Dibella. :tongue:

But...
If Shor is a snake, why is Talos trying to kill him in that statue?
And wouldn't it make more sense to have Ysmir as one of the 9 instead of Arkay/Orkey?

The snake is Wulfharth. Alternativily, both the snake and the dragon represent Shor and Akatosh.
User avatar
Silencio
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:30 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:26 am

The snake is Wulfharth. Alternativily, both the snake and the dragon represent Shor and Akatosh.
Wouldn't that mean that in the statue Talos is killing himself if it is in fact a snake?
Not to mention according to the wiki, Wulfharth was born during the 1st Era, too late to be enshrined pre-Dragon War
User avatar
evelina c
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:28 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:36 am

Wouldn't that mean that in the statue Talos is killing himself if it is in fact a snake?
Not to mention according to the wiki, Wulfharth was born during the 1st Era, too late to be enshrined pre-Dragon War

Wulfharth was an aspect of Shor (the snake). Talos killed him/had him killed to get his soul to create Mantella. But Arctus, Talos, and Wulfharth all become the same god. So yes, Talos is killing himself.

Edit: Then again, Talos killing Shor/Wulfharth wouldn't fit well with the Nords. So maybe Auriel is the snake, with Alduin and Shor being the dragon? Him killing Auriel is him defeating the first Aldmeri Dominion.
User avatar
Jack
 
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:08 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 9:49 pm

Ok, I redid the list, with new arguments based on this thread and other sources. Turns out there is in fact a unique "Fox" mural. This means the fox/whale mural is just "whale" now:

Hawk - Kyne
Her symbol in various cultures is a hawk (Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim's Kyne shrines are vaguely bird like)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Hawk.jpg

Wolf - Mara
Handmaiden to Kyne. Tear-Wife to Shor. Wolf pack => family => Mara
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Wolf.jpg

Snake - Shor
Lorkhan = Sep, who is "The Snake". Serpent is to Dragon as Lorkhan is to Akatosh?
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Snake.jpg

Moth -Dibella
Moths are the same as butterflies. Butterflies are pretty. Moths like flowers, which is Dibella's symbol since Daggerfall. Possible sixual undertones (probosces + flower)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Moth.jpg

Owl - Jhunal
Jhunal is a god of hermetic orders, which put great emphasis on alchemy, astrology, and theurgy. Owls come out at night to hunt when the moon and stars are out.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Owl.jpg

Whale - Tsun
Ancient Nordic version of Zenithar, shield-thane to Shor and brother to Stuhn. He guards the Hall of Valor on a whalebone bridge. He also sleeps under a whaleskin tent.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Fox.jpg

Bear -Stuhn
Stendarr was the chief deity of the Imperial Legion before Talos. Stormcloak generals wear bear skins.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Bear.jpg

Dragon - Alduin
Obvious
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Dragon.jpg

Fox - Ysmir
The nordic Talos, Dragon of the North, has gone by many reincarnations including the atmoran warrior Hans the Fox, who was one of the 500 Companions. Morihaus afaik when talking with Whitestrake's head mentions his fox totem I think.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Fox-1.jpg
User avatar
Kayleigh Mcneil
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:32 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:24 am

What about old Orkey (Arkay)?
User avatar
Cameron Garrod
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:46 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:36 am

[snip]

Ysmir isn't one of the Gods displayed. You have got one or two around the wrong way, but are definitely onto something :).
User avatar
Jamie Lee
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:15 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 8:08 pm

What about old Orkey (Arkay)?
Orkey is Malacath.
User avatar
Erika Ellsworth
 
Posts: 3333
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:52 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 11:25 pm

Orkey is Malacath.

Nah, Orkey is Arkay. Maloch is Malacath.
User avatar
jaideep singh
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:45 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 am


Nah, Orkey is Arkay. Maloch is Malacath.
Nope, Orkey is Malacath:
"...and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined." -Five Songs of King Wulfharth
User avatar
ladyflames
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:45 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:59 am

Nope, Orkey is Malacath:
"...and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined." -Five Songs of King Wulfharth

No...

Mauloch (Malacath): An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the "Year of Winter in Summer". - Varieties of Faith


They follow no laws, save their own, an unwritten set of rules called "The Code of Malacath," named after one of their gods, who is sometimes called Mauloch. - Code of Malacath


Traditionally, the Orcs have worshipped the Daedra Malacath (Mauloch) as their patron deity. - Orsinium, Third Pocket Guide
User avatar
Alister Scott
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:56 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:26 am

No...

Mauloch (Malacath): An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the "Year of Winter in Summer". - Varieties of Faith


They follow no laws, save their own, an unwritten set of rules called "The Code of Malacath," named after one of their gods, who is sometimes called Mauloch. - Code of Malacath


Traditionally, the Orcs have worshipped the Daedra Malacath (Mauloch) as their patron deity. - Orsinium, Third Pocket Guide

Mauloch and Orkey are the same but have been named differently by two seperate races. Orkey is the enemy God and traditionally the Orcs have been the enemy of the Nords. Plus Orkey sounds weirdly like Orc.
User avatar
Melly Angelic
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:58 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:13 am

Mauloch IS the Nordic name for Malacath, found in their own myths. The name is listed among the Nordic gods in Varieties of Faith. As is Orkey, as a separate deity.
User avatar
Pete Schmitzer
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:20 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:13 am

To be fair, The True Nature of Orcs also claims that Orkey is Malacath. But I think it is a mistake that has been perpetuated by the Orkey cursing the Nords myth. In Cyrodiil, Arkay is a good deity, so its tough for people to make the connection between him and Orkey, who is a evil or at least an antagonistic deity in Nordic mythology. But if you look at the myths surrounding Orkey (cursing Nords to live a short life, whose curse is then thrown from off the Nords to the Orcs) his closeness with Arkay, the god of mortality and the cycle of life, is a bit clearer. He is also recounted as having summoned Alduin to plague the Nords. Could you imagine a daedra summoning Alduin? Naw, it makes more sense if Orkey is in fact a Aedra.

Also worthy of note, MK's The Five Hundred Companions or Thereabouts mentions that one of Ysgramor's companions coming from Atmora was a cultist of Orkey. This doesn't really lean either way, since Malacath could have had cultists on Atmora, but it is perhaps more likely that Malacath didn't have much influence on Atmora. There weren't any Orcs there, after all.
User avatar
Shianne Donato
 
Posts: 3422
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:55 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 8:39 am

It makes sense for Orkey (=Malacath) to summon Alduin, because Malacath is Trinimac who is champion of Akatosh. Also it wasn't Orkey who cursed the Nords, it was Alduin (who was summoned by Orkey).
It's pretty simple: Orkey is Malacath
User avatar
Carlos Rojas
 
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:19 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:55 am

It makes sense for Orkey (=Malacath) to summon Alduin, because Malacath is Trinimac who is champion of Akatosh. Also it wasn't Orkey who cursed the Nords, it was Alduin (who was summoned by Orkey).
It's pretty simple: Orkey is Malacath

But Malacath isn't Trinimac anymore. Just as Sheogorath isn't the Champion of Cyrodiil or Arden Sul, Talos isn't Tiber Septim, or Akatosh isn't Martin Septim. In fact, I'd make the argument that Trinimac is the Altmeri equivalent of the Nordic Tsun, not Mauloch. See here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1237312-gods-across-the-world/page__p__18767347__hl__trinimac,%20tsun__fromsearch__1#entry18767347
User avatar
Isaac Saetern
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:46 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 10:48 pm

Ysmir isn't one of the Gods displayed. You have got one or two around the wrong way, but are definitely onto something :smile:.
How do you know this though? Just curious. If Ysmir is replaced by Orkey, I could imagine Orkey becoming the Bear "two dead bear skulls = death", but this leaves an issue. Stuhn (bear) and Tsun (whale) are brothers, and whales supposedly evolved from a bear like creature. Sounds like too good of a relationship to pass up.

Reading the journal of that warrior finding the last stronghold of the Alduin Cult, it would seem that 8 deities made up the Nordic Pantheon at that time. Being so associated with Alduin, would Orkey still be worshiped if Alduin is so hated? Apparently he was worshiped during the time of Ysgramor, having a warrior as part of his cult, so I could see having murals in ancient tombs, but that means poor Harrald/Ysmir/Hans/Pelinel/Tiber/Talos doesn't get a totem (no room), and that makes me a sad snow whale. :(

References of Pelinel to a "fox animal"
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fragments-adabal
“And in the blood-floored throne room of White-Gold, the severed head of Pelinal spoke to the winged-bull, Morihaus, demigod lover of Al-Esh, saying, ‘Our enemies have undone me, and spread my body into hiding. In mockery of divine purpose, the ayleids cut me into eighths, for they are obsessed with this number.’
“And Morihaus, confused, snorted through his ring, saying, ‘Your crusades went beyond her counsel, Whitestrake, but I am a bull, and therefore reckless in my wit. I think I would go and gore our prisoners if you had left any alive. You are blood-made-glorious, uncle, and will come again, as fox animal or light. Cyrod is still ours.’”
User avatar
^~LIL B0NE5~^
 
Posts: 3449
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:38 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:59 am

How do you know this though? Just curious.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fragments-adabal
[/font]
you got this.rock it.
User avatar
Ridhwan Hemsome
 
Posts: 3501
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:13 pm

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 am

I'd rather come up with Totem Animals for the demons. Mauloch would be a boar, but I'm not sure about the Leaper Demon and Herma-Mora.
User avatar
Claire Lynham
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:42 am

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:35 am

I'd rather come up with Totem Animals for the demons. Mauloch would be a boar, but I'm not sure about the Leaper Demon and Herma-Mora.
I like this idea.

Mauloch = Boar
Herma Mora = Kraken/Octopus
Leaper Demon = Kangaroo (stores previous kalpa parts in pouch) :tongue:
User avatar
Ray
 
Posts: 3472
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:17 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion